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Let's hear your thoughts on this as well as FWD SM cars in general. I know it's an uphill battle but I'm not really planning on sweeping nationals or anything ;)

atechnica:

How much power is ideal for a 2000# FWD hatchback?

Whatever it takes to keep the traction control engaged for the entire course when it is set at whatever you determine the optimal slip angle to be for your tires. 

We now return you to someone who actually knows something about FWD...
 

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Chris
51 SM2

What kind of power are you thinking?

250whp from a N/A setup sounds like that would be a great power to weight ratio, I'm guessing that 2000# Civic Hatch includeds the driver weight, and figuring around 280 Fly Wheel HP, that's a 7.7 weight to power ratio....that would be enough. And it being N/A the powerband would be peaker and more manageable in the mid-range. I'm assuming this is what you are asking as the weight penalty on a FI car would likely run you higher than 2000#s.

A Turbocharged or Supercharged car at 250whp would probably too much because the mid range would have soo muchpower and torque compared to the power curve of a N/A car.

As Chris stated, I'll let a FWD guy give you a definite answer, just sharing my thoughts :)

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Logan Murray
SM2 NA Miata

MORE!!!!! To much is barely enough.

I feel bad about giving you grief.  We have a local EG with a 1.8L Supercharged engine.  The weight requirement is 1950lbs in that configuration.  They are around 220 hp and would like a litte more.  Probably not lots more but some.  They are doing well and the car is pretty fast on a local/regional level. 

I feel better now, at least this answer wasn't quite as flippant.

 

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Chris
51 SM2

Don't feel bad, I'm just asking for ideas

My engine setup is going to be a 1.8 with a small-ish turbo that should be capable of 200ft/lbs through all of the important rev range and 220-230whp maximum.

That should be pretty good. I know Neal Tovsen was putting down 235/205 whp/wtq. and placed trophied twice at Nationals with that power in a 1930 lb. Scirocco. I myself am thinking that I could probably put to use about 250whp and 225wtq, give or take a little, in a 1975 lb. Scirocco (I would go lighter and use less power, but due to the new rules, I can't).

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'77 Scirocco FWD SM Monster

Are you going up to the 275/35R15 A6 in the front? That could probably stand another 30-whp as well.

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Logan Murray
SM2 NA Miata

I am not quite yet, as I am not sure how it is going to work fitment-wise on my car. I am already going to be cutting about 3" out of the stock fenders/rear quarters for 225/45-13's, and the 275's are 2" larger in diameter. That's quite a hit to me, as I will most likely have to raise the suspension at least an inch, then with the taller tires, I will be at elast 2" higher overall. Also, at the height I am at for the 13's, my passenger-side axle is hitting the frame rail occasionally, so even if I could get the front to work with the body, I still have to figure out the axle clearance.

 I am one of the people that may be making the "jump" to XP or EM in the next year or two, especially since I can truly lower the car where it needs to be, running 10" wide 13" slicks, and I can clearance the frame rail for axle clearance.

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'77 Scirocco FWD SM Monster

Boise77Scirocco:

I am not quite yet, as I am not sure how it is going to work fitment-wise on my car. I am already going to be cutting about 3" out of the stock fenders/rear quarters for 225/45-13's, and the 275's are 2" larger in diameter. That's quite a hit to me, as I will most likely have to raise the suspension at least an inch, then with the taller tires, I will be at elast 2" higher overall. Also, at the height I am at for the 13's, my passenger-side axle is hitting the frame rail occasionally, so even if I could get the front to work with the body, I still have to figure out the axle clearance.

 I am one of the people that may be making the "jump" to XP or EM in the next year or two, especially since I can truly lower the car where it needs to be, running 10" wide 13" slicks, and I can clearance the frame rail for axle clearance.

 

Question for you: You're in Boise, ID right? Where do you go for SCCA events? Does Boise have their own events or do you go to the tri cities? I don't think you go to Spokane because  don't remember any competitive SM sciroccos.

Yes, I am from Boise. We have quite a few local events each year, and I travel around a bit for some other events. This will be my first year in a Scirocco. I used to drive a Corrado in SM before I realized it was WAY too heavy for the class, so I then switched to a Rabbit, but the shell was in pretty bad shape, so I am building the Scirocco. And no, I have never been to Spokane, but I might make the trip this year. I will definitely be at Packwood, Wendover, and possibly San Diego this year.

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'77 Scirocco FWD SM Monster

Ask Mark Dadio about this....I think he mentioned something to the effect of not needing more than 300hp or so. Weight transfer being what it is....there isn't a tire big enough to utilize more in a straight line.

I'd agree with going as light as possible, NA, and the most torque possible...on a 275/35-15 tire :) 

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David Hedderick
Pearland (Houston), TX
01 CRG YZ125
08 Mazda 3s
02 Mazda Protege (automatic tow vehicle)

Would aero mods do anything for such a car?

atechnica:

Would aero mods do anything for such a car?

no. 

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Hi! I'm Rodney. "Hi Rodney!" I'm addicted to Solo2....

Rodney:

atechnica:

Would aero mods do anything for such a car?

no. 

A Maxed out front splitter has to help a little in slightly higher speeds.

I like the idea of keeping the turbo and going for more torque, just make sure you go with the right gearing so you're not shifting too often and letting the extra tq pull the gear. With about a peak of 300whp and some custom mid range cams for my miata and I think it will safely be a 2nd gear car everywhere.

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Logan Murray
SM2 NA Miata

Father LeadFoot:

A Maxed out front splitter has to help a little in slightly higher speeds.

 

for track work, yes. for autocross, no. also, you do not need more then 300whp. anything else will go up in smoke. 

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Hi! I'm Rodney. "Hi Rodney!" I'm addicted to Solo2....

Yeah the car won't be making more than 230hp if everything goes ideally, but I'm not so worried about that because it should have a lot of useable power from about 2500-7200rpm. I'm planning on using 13" slicks to minimize modifications to the car

 

Some of our autocrosses here can be a bit fast (since we have [or had] a road course to stage autox's on), at what speeds would getting into aero stuff become beneficial?  

atechnica:

Let's hear your thoughts on this as well as FWD SM cars in general. I know it's an uphill battle but I'm not really planning on sweeping nationals or anything ;)

 

I'd put the 275s upfront, 225s in the back, and aim for 250 whp.  One day I'd like to drive "Rodney's"  or Neal's cars.

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Jesse
-2002-2006 E-stock 93 MR2 (sold)
-2007-2008 XP Spyder

129STS:

atechnica:

Let's hear your thoughts on this as well as FWD SM cars in general. I know it's an uphill battle but I'm not really planning on sweeping nationals or anything ;)

 

I'd put the 275s upfront, 225s in the back, and aim for 250 whp.  One day I'd like to drive "Rodney's"  or Neal's cars.

Agreed, with 13"s that is going to be a very small diameter and at 200 wtq, you'll be smoking those puppies quite a bit. You need the larger diameter for traction.

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Logan Murray
SM2 NA Miata

Father LeadFoot:

129STS:

atechnica:

Let's hear your thoughts on this as well as FWD SM cars in general. I know it's an uphill battle but I'm not really planning on sweeping nationals or anything ;)

 

I'd put the 275s upfront, 225s in the back, and aim for 250 whp.  One day I'd like to drive "Rodney's"  or Neal's cars.

Agreed, with 13"s that is going to be a very small diameter and at 200 wtq, you'll be smoking those puppies quite a bit. You need the larger diameter for traction.

 

I don't agree.  Neal's Scirocco had over 200 wtq, and 13", and didn't smoke the tires everywhere.  I wouldn't suggest 13"s because they lack the heat capacity.  Ideally for a FWD, I'd really like something as tall as the 13s, but wider.  The lower the car, the less rearward weight transfer, and the higher your possible forward acceleration limit becomes.

As far as how much power.... the thought that you need enough to spin the tires at 70 mph, while fun, isn't needed, and will more than likely slow you do.  Making something as fast as a SM/SM2/XP/DM/EM car, drive-ability becomes a increasingly major factor.
 

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Jesse
-2002-2006 E-stock 93 MR2 (sold)
-2007-2008 XP Spyder