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Solo Participation Rule ~ Nearly all P classes threatened

Last post 02-21-2008, 7:08 PM by spitfire4gp. 11 replies.
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  •  01-18-2008, 3:44 AM 280962

    Solo Participation Rule ~ Nearly all P classes threatened

    Pardon a long post. I just sent the letter below to the SEB (cc to the BOD). Under this rule 10 of the current P and M classes are threatened, either below the ominous 17 number or within 5 cars of it based on participation in the 2007 Nationals. My basic premise is that the rule is simply unnecessary and should be done away with.  (also posted in the Modified section.) -- Rocky Entriken

     

    To the Solo Events Board--

     

    In the Solo rulebook there is a rule which threatens a number of classes of cars, primarily those built to the Prepared and Modified rulesets. This rule is wholly unnecessary and I would ask that efforts be made to remove it entirely from the rulebook.

     

    This is rule 4.9, titled “Minimum Participation Level for National Classes,” which specifies: “If in two consecutive years at the Solo National Championship a class fails to field a combined total (Open and Ladies) of at least seventeen (17) entrants, then the following year that class will be consolidated, eliminated or restructured...” and goes on to detail how this may be done.

     

    I am opposed for the basic, and perhaps obvious, reason that my class -- G Prepared (12 entries in 2007) -- is one threatened by this rule. However my class is far from alone. We have already lost B Prepared to this rule (15 entries in 2006 -- imagine no place competitive for race-prepped Corvettes!). A Modified  is similarly threatened (nine 2007 entries), as is D Modified (15), while B Modified (17), C Modified (18), F Prepared (19), E Prepared (21), B Street Prepared (21) and E Street Prepared (22) are all within five cars of that ominous number.

     

    The overriding argument for removing this rule is a lack of need for it. Some years ago the Solo Nationals supplementary regulations established an entry limit of 1250 cars. We have yet to approach that number, being still almost 100 cars short of such a figure. The 2007 Nationals had 1157 competitors -- would it have hurt the event to let another dozen or so Corvette drivers also enjoy competing?

     

    Unlike the Runoffs where a limiting factor is the number of races that can be run in a day, the limiting factor at the Solo Nationals is the number of cars that can be run through a course in a day. It does not matter if 1250 cars are broken into 70 classes or 10, it still takes X amount of time to give 1250 cars their six runs over a four-day span. Therefore, if we are not yet approaching that 1250 limit there is no need to disenfranchise any of our members from competing.

     

    At this juncture I should emphasize that I do NOT oppose efforts to increase participation, nor to consolidate or restructure classes if such action can be taken without rendering one group totally uncompetitive within another. The Solo Events Board does not need a rule to be able to accomplish that. Such action has always been within its mandate but the members have always wanted it to be done in a thoughtful and careful manner.

     

    I am mindful, however, of the recent action of the SCCA Board of Directors at its Dec. 10 meeting directing the Club Racing Board to “develop a plan that would include all National classes in the 2008 National Championship Runoffs event...”. I note that this edict specifically does not demand separate races, merely a method to enable ALL competitors in National racing classes to compete. In essence, I ask the same for those of us competing in Solo.

                   

    As I said, at this time we are not yet pushing that 1250 limit. At the 2007 Nationals 1157 cars competed. In 2006 the number was 1153. Five years previous in 2002 it was 1106. While the program continues to grow, it has reached a level where the growth is slower -- perfectly understandable given the level we have reached today. If entry patterns over the past 35 years hold true, we probably should not expect to top 1200 until about 2012.

     

    If it was determined at some future date that handling an entry beyond 1250 was desirable, there are ways to accomplish that including making the Nationals a five- or six-day event (the current four-day format is actually two separate two-day events with half the field competing Tuesday-Wednesday, the other half competing Thursday-Friday). I am not advocating such action at this time, merely illustrating that there are ways to move beyond the limit should member demand make such desirable, and thus that even the 1250 is an arbitrary figure which is by no means absolute.

     

    But since we have not yet approached that number, it makes no sense to impose another equally arbitrary number to create an artificial benchmark at which a class is deemed to be worthy to continue. Why 17? Why not 10 or 30? And what is the reality?

     

    The reality is that classes comprising cars that can be bought off the showroom floor, have a few goodies bolted on and adjustments made to be competition-ready will have more competitors than classes that require a great deal of engineering. Simply stated: Stock and Street classes will always be more populous than Prepared or Modified classes. Note that the list I mentioned above includes more than half of the 15 Prepared and Modified classes, but just two of the 21 Stock and Street classes (those two, as it happens, the “Detroit big-iron” Corvette and Ponycar classes).

     

    There are those who decry a claimed “too many” classes in Solo today. In 1973, the year of the first Nationals, we had 15 classes. In 2007, 35 years later, we had 70. But that number is misleading. The 15 classes in 1973 included just one Ladies class and 14 Open classes, while today there were 35 Open classes and a parallel 35 Ladies classes. So in reality, 1973 had 14 classes and 2007 had 35.

     

    1973 had 224 entrants while 2007 had 1157. Or to put it another way, in 35 years the entry at the Solo Nationals has increased 517%, while the number of classes has increased 250%. Or, even while we have 21 more classes now than when we started, the average entry PER CLASS is double what it was in 1973. And that even takes into account the classes supposedly below the line as regards total entry. Again I ask, where is the need? We are not seeing an “I-class” situation here, we are seeing a growth in classes to accommodate the diversity shown in the growth of competitors.

     

    Adding classes should be a careful process. A new class should not be approved lightly. The new classes that have been approved have achieved that approval only through a careful, even laborious, process. But Rule 4.9 does not really address this. Rule 4.9 threatens long-established classes populated to a great extent by long-term and committed SCCA members.

     

    There is also a dynamic involving the owners of the various classes which plays here. The greater the preparation level required in a class, the greater the emotional attachment an owner has to his car. Drivers in Stock classes tend to bring out the “car of the year” and bounce from car to car depending on what’s hot. Drivers in Prepared and Modified classes tend to stick with the same car for years and years, working to make it better and better. As a result, when the SEB shuffles cars around in Stock classes, members may grumble a bit but they mostly just go buy something else. When the SEB does something to Prep or Mod classes the owners of cars in those classes react as if their child had been abused.

     

    By the same token, those passionate about their cars and the sport tend to stick around longer. It comes as no surprise to learn that of the 52 members currently enshrined in the Silver Circle -- those who have competed in 25 or more Solo Nationals -- 40 of them compete in the Prepared and Modified classes while only a dozen are primarily Stock or Street drivers. Thus the 17-entry rule primarily targets long-term members.

     

    I bought my G Prepared Spitfire, a 1964 model, in 1966. I’ve been competing it ever since, always in Solo, racing it when budget allows. I am not unusual by any means in my attachment to this car -- but those sharing my affinity are found most heavily in the Prep and Mod classes, a few in Street Prepared; almost none in Stock or Street Touring.

     

    However just as those whose emotional attachment to a given car are a smaller group so also is it a more passionate group. To equate us with Stock and Street owners, and thus require us to meet a participation level they reach easily (the Super Stock class alone had an entry in 2007 more than half the entire Prepared category!!!) is counterproductive to our primary goal of just having fun with our cars. At the end of the day, isn’t that why SCCA exists?

     

    --Rocky Entriken

       #4 G Prepared


    --Rocky Entriken
  •  01-18-2008, 11:47 AM 281035 in reply to 280962

    Re: Solo Participation Rule ~ Nearly all P classes threatened

    Rocky,

     Yes

     It is a poorly thought out, misguided rule that needs to go.

     

  •  01-21-2008, 5:51 PM 281483 in reply to 281035

    Re: Solo Participation Rule ~ Nearly all P classes threatened

    I agree with the presentation and the spirit of what you've written.  DP is growing but there are concerns about car numbers (not just entries)  Solo would be lots less fun if there weren't a place to race a car of your own creation.

    Hopefully the club is listening.

     


    Greg M.
    148 DP Miata
    Supported by:
    AtTrack Graphics/Skull Motorsports/Karol and the kids!
  •  01-21-2008, 8:00 PM 281503 in reply to 280962

    Re: Solo Participation Rule ~ Nearly all P classes threatened

    Rocky,

    Your letter is well crafted and includes a good deal of supporting data.  I concur the current 17 car cutoff seems a bit arbitrary.  However, I suspect a rule set without some type of automatic mechanism for class review would result in even more complaints than the current rule.  Circumstances change over time, and classes need to evolve to meet the needs of members.   If I read your letter correctly, you're objecting to the criteria & method, not the fact that such a process needs to occur from time to time.

    In my opinion, it would greatly strengthen your case, if you could provide recommended changes for Rule 10.  Should the rule include a hard cutoff?  If so, what number makes more sense than 17?  If not, what hard crieria should be used to initiate the review process?  What additional remedies (if any) should be afforded the SEB?

    I think it's safe to say that participation levels in most Prepared and Modified classes will always be relatively small, in comparison to classes that require lower levels of preparation.   However, one measure I would consider important to gauging class health is a steady flow of new entrants to the class.  If a P/M class is attracting new cars & drivers, it's likely to be viable over the long term.  By this measure, both XP and DP appear to be reasonably healthy - with quite a several new cars in '07 and more on the way.  However, it appears GP has struggled to attract new cars/drivers.   Do you have any thoughts about what steps could be taken to attract new drivers to GP?  With  GP, the SCCA created a vintage class in all but name.  Should it be promoted as such?  Maybe broadened to include a wider assortment of vintage sports cars?  It would be nice to see GP on the upswing, versus struggling to stay afloat.

     -Steve


    Steve Garnjobst
    #75 XP
    '99 Mazda Mutant
  •  01-22-2008, 7:27 PM 281661 in reply to 281503

    Re: Solo Participation Rule ~ Nearly all P classes threatened

    Steve--

    Appreciate your thoughtful reply.

    First, I really don't think there needs to be an "automatic mechanism for class review" as a rulebook item. The ability to review the health of the sport including examining individual classes has always been in the mandate of all competition committees -- Solo Board, ClubRace Board, Rally Board, etc. They can and should always be looking at what's happening in this class or that. But that also leaves the option of leaving things be (is AM in trouble or just going through a cycle; should we keep it whether it has 30 cars or 3? The SEB should look at it, but it should NOT be *required* to act).

    That said, I take note of an action of the PAC at a recent meeting of which I have since been informed. [Here I originally quoted PAC minutes that I have since learned were not public property, so I have now deleted them, but I will say the PAC recommendation is a reasonable solution to the issue and it has my support.]

    One SEB member has already told me that letters will be important on this issue. Send to seb@scca.com, and cc bod@scca.com.

     --Rocky


     


    --Rocky Entriken
  •  01-24-2008, 2:30 PM 281958 in reply to 281661

    Re: Solo Participation Rule ~ Nearly all P classes threatened

    Hi Rocky,

     

    This is Chris Hartman, I proposed the inclusion of the Fiat 128 into GP that got voted down last year.  I was hoping to help bring GP numbers up a little, by running my car at west coast events, but things didn't work out.  In my pitch for the Fiat, I had discussed pulling some of the smaller/older cars out of EP and into GP.  Smaller, light, small cc fwd/rwd sedans/coupes that fit quite well with the existing GP engine/weight structure.  While I don't think this would immediately double GP numbers, I think it would be a better place for these cars to play compared to the current EP, without reducing the numbers of EP to much degree.  Cars like the 128, early Civic 1200s, 210 datsun etc.  All of these guys are currently burred down the ranks in EP, outgunged by the more modern offerings.

     

    Another idea I had, which may not interest anyone, would be to have a mixed set of rules for GP prep levels.  For example, all the small bore older stuff currently in GP gets prepped to current rules.  But then create a "limited engine prep" category for some of the EP/DP cars to come play.  Basically, limited engine prep CRXs, Miata etc., with perhaps ST or SP engine prep allowances, and weight limits set accordingly.  People would still get to build a "real race car" that is gutted, runs slicks, and handles great, but doesn't have to build a full-on Prep level motor.  This would also prove a great stepping stone into EP/DP, for when they want to build a big motor.  the side effects might be that EP/DP numbers drop, because some of those existing under-prepped cars would play in GP instead.

     

    Like I said, just an idea.  But I figure the future of GP isn't going to be determined by how many Spitfires, Bugeyes, and Minis people drag out of barns and decide to build.  It will be determined by the number of more modern small sports cars, and what homes they go to play in.  With DP being a higher end proposition, GP could prove a great stepping stone for "limited engine prepped" cars, and a place for existing cars to play.

     

    Either way, good luck.  I've actually sold the 128, and moved into a 1964 Autodynamics Formula Vee, so I don't have any dogs in this fight.  Just wanted to offer up an idea.

     

    Chris H. 

  •  01-24-2008, 6:17 PM 282000 in reply to 281958

    Re: Solo Participation Rule ~ Nearly all P classes threatened

    Hi, Chris--

     Yes, if you'll recall, I supported your bid to join us in GP and I was not the only one. Actually, I don't recall we ever asked for a separate class, just not to be made uncompetitive by new cars coming in our class. Well, someone had the new class idea and next thing we knew we that originally were the primary DP cars became GP cars. Only problem, I saw it almost immediately as a solution created to fail because there was no mechanism for new additions to GP, as your example demonstrated.

     I've also suggested (informally) the limited production idea, which has worked rather well on the club racing side, and get met with two responses. One is the hoary "solo ain't racing" as if that alone is a reason to ignore all solutions found in another segment of motorsport. The other is the SEB just doesn't want to deal with a limited prep concept (this coming from individual SEB members, not stated to me as any official SEB position). Besides, given the way the SEB has bolluxed up the P rules over the past several years, I'd have little faith they could get limited prep right.

     In club racing I've found limited prep to be a problem, but paradoxically it is a problem that would be much less apparent on this side of the fence precisely because "solo ain't racing." I find in racing I'm often faster in the corners than the limited prep cars and sometimes even faster over a complete lap, but that does me little good when they get to the corner first and drive a good (even if slower) line. They can block me in a corner (by simply driving a good line) but I can't block them on a straight (where it is just blatant weaving) and with more horses they just drive on by. Hard to beat horsepower. It's the classic, I can catch 'em but once I do I can't do much with 'em unless they make a mistake or I force the issue (and I don't race that way). After a few years of that, the Club Racing Board dropped my car and those like mine down a class last year. Thing is, in solo, even with more horses, a limited prep car can't block me in corners and their horsepower advantage is better compensated by my handling advantage.

     BTW, you have as much dog in this current fight as anyone -- the participation level rule potentially affects everyone including several Mod classes (although FM is pretty healthy at the moment). If you think it's a bad rule, write the SEB and say so!

     


    --Rocky Entriken
  •  01-24-2008, 7:14 PM 282008 in reply to 282000

    Re: Solo Participation Rule ~ Nearly all P classes threatened

    Hello guys,

     I'll be writing a letter to the SEB shortly,

     I've been autoxing for nearly 30 years now, almost all of those years in prep/mod. As I see it, when I started in '79, if you wanted to be in the fastest class or car you had to be in a prepared or modified car, since the DOT  R tires were allowed in the mid '80's, the stock and street prep cars became much faster, the newest R tires are nearly as good as slicks and in some cases people actually prefer the DOT R's. This is by far the most damaging situation for Prepared and Modified classes, since people don't have to have a well prepped or modded car to compete for TTOD anymore.

    So IMO, SCCA, the tire companies, and all of us to a lesser degree, created the problem by allowing R tires in Stock, and SP classes. All of this is water under the bridge now, so we must lobby for lower participation numbers before we lose all the Prepared and Mod classes. I think 10 is a good place to start, maybe we should ask for an even lower number just to be sure, and for A mod there shouldn't be a minimum.


    Jesus Villarreal
    D mod Europa
  •  01-24-2008, 10:18 PM 282039 in reply to 282008

    Re: Solo Participation Rule ~ Nearly all P classes threatened

    Rocky, I'll be writing soon also... I promise...

    If we can't convince the SEB/BOD to drop the rule outright, one thing I would like to see added is minimum number of actual cars. The number of drivers don't tell the health of a class, it's the number of cars. With 17 drivers being the magic number, a committed group of 5 car owners can keep the class alive forever. Does that mean the class is strong... not really. FP went from 25 to 19 entries in 07 but went from 11 to 12 cars... is the class getting weaker?

    Admittedly, more drivers boost the prestige of the trophies, but the number of cars are the infrastructure that support the class.

    Tom


    Tom Holt
    FP199 280Z
  •  02-20-2008, 9:41 PM 286069 in reply to 282039

    Re: Solo Participation Rule ~ Nearly all P classes threatened

    The March Fastrack has a proposed rule change published.  It's not real obvious, but the SEB is proposing to extend the time peiod from two years to three years.

     

    "Change the first part of Section 4.9 to read “If in three consecutive years….”

     

    Write the SEB and tell them what you think! 


    Steve Hudson
    DP Miata
  •  02-21-2008, 12:52 PM 286183 in reply to 286069

    Re: Solo Participation Rule ~ Nearly all P classes threatened

    stevemhudson:

    The March Fastrack has a proposed rule change published.  It's not real obvious, but the SEB is proposing to extend the time peiod from two years to three years.

     

    "Change the first part of Section 4.9 to read “If in three consecutive years….”

     

    Write the SEB and tell them what you think! 

    Steve, You're right, the year change from two to three is not obvious, esp since I've buried the 07rulebook! But isn't it normal to bury rule changes? :) --Pat Kelly cheers!
  •  02-21-2008, 7:08 PM 286248 in reply to 286183

    Re: Solo Participation Rule ~ Nearly all P classes threatened

    My letter to the SEB (cc to the BOD -- I've learned it is good to do that so the BoD is aware there is an issue):

     Dear SEB--

    In the March FasTrack there is a rule change proposal to: Change the first part of Section 4.9 to read “If in three consecutive years….”
     
    I support this proposal in and of itself. It is better than the current rule.
     
    However, I do NOT regard this as a solution to the issue originally raised that the rerquirement of a minimum of 17 cars is necessary, and especially so for Prepared and Modified class cars. I remain in the belief that there is no urgent need for Section 4.9 even to exist as it is a solution to something that is in fact not a problem. Requiring cars of a ruleset that must be built to meet equal standards of cars that can be merely bought from a commecial car dealer is unrealistic. However, if in the grand scheme of things the prevailing belief is that some kind of limit must be established, then the limit for built cars (Prepared, Modified) should be significantly lower than that for bought cars (Stock) or bought cars with minor modifications that leaves them still street-legal in most respects (Street).
     
    Therefore this rule proposal does not address the participation numbers issue at all. It is a separate item entirely addressing only timeframe and looking at it as a separate item it is an improvement over what currently exists.
     
    Please enact the proposal. But also, please continue to address the need for 4.9 at all, and whether Prepared/Modified cars should be held to the same standard as Stock/Street cars.
     
    --Rocky Entriken
      #4 GP

    --Rocky Entriken
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