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What is your opinion of traction control systems that use the signal to the injectors (fuel injection is free) and interface with the factory ABS for information to the controller. I think the rule set will allow but I would like you opinion before I get to nationals. You can see more here. www.racelogic.com if you need to.

I hope you can clairify this soon, I may need to call the SEB also.

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Mark Jorgensen
ESP 99
Woodhouse Viper
800-889-1893

For what category?

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

Did you mean this RaceLogic: http://www.racelogic.co.uk/?show=Traction_Control

Mark -

My unofficial opinion is that mucking with the factory ABS is a no-no per 15.6.A (where ABS may be disabled but not removed, no mention made of modifying the ABS system to interface with something else) and 15.1.B: "Any modification not specifically authorized by the Stock Category or Street Prepared rules is prohibited. No unauthorized modifications are permitted in order to accomodate authorized modifications."

Now, if you swapped in the '99-'04 Mustang factory TC system complete (4 channel ABS module, ABS control module for the 4-channel unit, ECU, and all lines, hoses, and wiring harnesses) and changed its calibration, which exists inside the stock ECU, that's an update/backdate situation, and I'd have to say it's nominally legal under the current ruleset. That's a tricky swap, by the way -- the '99-'04 ECU is looking for coil-on-plug ignition, no IMRCs, and a returnless fuel system with a PWM-driven fuel pump, all of which would have to go on (or come off, in the case of the IMRCs) the car to get it to work right, and you'll have to replace pretty much every bit of wiring on the car -- even the internal door harnesses, believe it or not -- as well as the instrument cluster. And then you get to try to figure out how to calibrate it. The factory settings for the TC are purt near useless for autocross unless you're running in standing water with dry-weather tires. There's a reason I had a 3x5 card with "Traction Control OFF, Stupid!" written on it in black Sharpie taped to the steering wheel for the first 6 months I ran my '99.

But I'm not the SEB. I'm just a SPAC member, although this is my personal opinion, not that of the SPAC, the SEB, the SCCA, or any of its officials, and it should not be treated as anything other than a personal opinion.

Added on edit: You'll want to send a note to seb@scca.com very quickly.

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AutoJim
ESP #65 '99 Mustang Cobra

I guess I didn't see it as modifying the ABS since it is just reading off the wheel sensors of the ABS not controlling anything with in the ABS itself, ( brakes are not applied to control wheel spin). I could have added the optional wheel sensors to do the same thing and disregard the ABS all together. Would this change your thoughts on the system? What is your interputaion of the other end of the system controlling the fuel?

Thanks,

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Mark Jorgensen
ESP 99
Woodhouse Viper
800-889-1893

Mark (and I have to stress this is entirely unofficial again, just a personal opinion), now we're getting into some grey areas -- I liken this to Jamey Aebersold's Supra in '98 with the boost-referenced fuel cut dyked out of the controls. At that time, it came down to a semantics issue: was this a fuel control or was it a boost control? After the fact, a rule specifically banning "fuel cut defensers" was added (and removed in the '06 rewrite of 15.10.C) to address that issue.

So, is this a fuel-management system, or is this a traction control system? If I was to unplug the RaceLogic box, would that prevent the car from running? I think you'd have a pretty tough argument to a Protest Committee that 4 wheel speed sensors are required to keep the engine's fuel curve updated.

What does the RL box do to fuel? It cuts out an injector (or more than one) entirely, if I understand it correctly, to effectively "kill" that cylinder for a cycle and reduce torque output. It's an on-off switch, it's not fine-tuning timing or amount, the injector is either working off the regular ECU or shorted to ground by the RL box and not firing at all.

It's being advertised and sold as a stand-alone traction control system, not as a piggyback or replacement ECU/fuel management unit. RL's own marketing and advertising is pretty damning right there.

I still think it falls under 15.1.B's "if we don't say you can, you cannot" clause. But that's just my opinion.

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AutoJim
ESP #65 '99 Mustang Cobra

Well I am not normally a rule pusher as I would like to believe that my talent is what really gets me there in the end. I pushed on while the AWD cars seemingly dominated the class for a couple of years. I guess I don't really need the hassle at nationals from my concerned competitors and truth be told the main benefit I have seen with the 270 RWHP I have is the ability to get some power down on the "launch" which will not be needed at nationals I'm sure.

Thanks for your "opinion" I do value it as you have been fair in the past.

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Mark Jorgensen
ESP 99
Woodhouse Viper
800-889-1893

Mark -

Ahh, good, someone else with a NA 4.6 4V with similar RWHP numbers. Mine clocked in at 272 RWHP last year on Roush's portable DynoJet. :)

See you in Kansas -- where I'm probably going to be cannon-fodder anyway. :)

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AutoJim
ESP #65 '99 Mustang Cobra

Am I mistaken, or did I read that in ESP traction control was protested at Nat'ls and denied (i.e. allowed) because it was presented as a fuel injection management system?

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124 ST[S|X] - '89 Civic Si (red or white, depending)
24 HS - '89 Civic Si white
95 ASP - '95 RX-7 R2 (for fun days)

The Racelogic system was protested at Nationals and I was ruled as legal. I was convinced from the start that it would be ok but had my doubts once I arrived. In the end there is alot of tuning oppurtunity that I missed and I think the system has a great potential mostly in the rain or at the Pro Solo level of the sport. Racelogic systems have been "secretly used" in racing venues for a while now and I think it could find a good home in Solo with a high powered rear or front drive car. If you want more info look here. www.woohouse.com

Mark J.

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Mark Jorgensen
ESP 99
Woodhouse Viper
800-889-1893

I think Mark meant to say, If you want more info look here.  www.woodhouse.com

or more specifically.  http://www.woodhouse.com/viper/racelogic/default.htm

 

And let me say that it was an un-dramatic affair.  Mark and I talked about it, I told him why I was doing it and that I was filing it regardless of where either of us ended up in the results (this discussion was before any car even ran @ Nationals) to get a clarification on the current rules. 

We (Mark and I) also talked for a bit in the protest "shed" and as usual it was friendly and I think we both understood where the other one was coming from. 

I just wanted to point that out, and show folks that protests don't have to mean war.  And that I appreciate the attitude Mark took with me during the process. 

And as the guy who scared the crap out of me in '04, I also believe your talent gets the results too.  :)

 

Sam

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Sam Strano
Owner--Strano Performance Parts
800-729-1831

Thanks for the kudos Sammy, but to tell you the truth you really f****d with my head right before the first runs. I have nothing but love for ya man but I'd have kicked your a** if that had not been an issue....[:'(]

Well ok there were a couple of other reasons but I hope to be back in better form next year...damn Subaru is what finished me.

Mark J.

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Mark Jorgensen
ESP 99
Woodhouse Viper
800-889-1893

01 FS Z28:

And let me say that it was an un-dramatic affair.  Mark and I talked about it, I told him why I was doing it and that I was filing it regardless of where either of us ended up in the results (this discussion was before any car even ran @ Nationals) to get a clarification on the current rules. 

We (Mark and I) also talked for a bit in the protest "shed" and as usual it was friendly and I think we both understood where the other one was coming from. 

I just wanted to point that out, and show folks that protests don't have to mean war.  And that I appreciate the attitude Mark took with me during the process.

That's what I thought.  From my first-hand observation of a near-protest in STX, there are some people who just don't get this at all.  They bring "history", drama, and personal issues to what could be necessary clarification of the rules.  Sigh.

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124 ST[S|X] - '89 Civic Si (red or white, depending)
24 HS - '89 Civic Si white
95 ASP - '95 RX-7 R2 (for fun days)

SVT199:

Thanks for the kudos Sammy, but to tell you the truth you really f****d with my head right before the first runs. I have nothing but love for ya man but I'd have kicked your a** if that had not been an issue....[:'(]

Well ok there were a couple of other reasons but I hope to be back in better form next year...damn Subaru is what finished me.

Mark J.

Well, I'm truly sorry about that.  I was going to tell you when we were done running so as not to distract you, but you already knew.... I'd guess from others in the class discussing the whole situation.  And FWIW, there was no good time to do it.  If I'd have waited or you didn't find out and the results had be different, then folks would have assumed I did it for other reasons, and that's not me. 

Sincerely I didn't do it to screw with you, just to try and get it resolved/out on the table.  I'd have done it if it was unplugged the entire time, because I felt it needed done.  

And again, you've more than proven to me that you're capable of being there.  When you weren't on the first run, I thought maybe the box was messed up.  Then you unplugged it and I was sure you'd be coming on hard then.  All I can think is we all have bad events, this must have been yours.  But yeah... driving a rally-car for a while can certainly mess one's ability to get the most from a pony-car.  That's pretty obvious from my own experiences.   

 

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Sam Strano
Owner--Strano Performance Parts
800-729-1831

SVT199:

Thanks for the kudos Sammy, but to tell you the truth you really f****d with my head right before the first runs. I have nothing but love for ya man but I'd have kicked your a** if that had not been an issue....[:'(]

Sammy,

Totally in jest brother I was having more than a bad day (week)

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Mark Jorgensen
ESP 99
Woodhouse Viper
800-889-1893