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Howdy,

Andy Hollis:

This motor was built just prior to last year's Nats, and was a rush job.  It was built from a junk yard core.  When new valve springs were not available in time, I asked that the originals be used.  Shimming was never discussed, and the builder had the shop manual and was directed to only do approved procedures.  Regardless, the motor is not legal and I take full responsibility for that, and will suffer the consequences.

You never checked valve clearances in a year of events, over two nationals and who knows how many tours & pros?

The problem with all this is that the officials stop as soon as they find a single thing that's illegal, so we'll never know if there was something else.

So much of this can be looked at from different perspectives... One perspective is that you're a standup guy who made a mistake and learned his lesson in the past, you didn't know anything was illegal, and are going overboard with retribution for the current problem by not fighting the penalty & voluntarily giving stuff back.

But the other perspective is that you knew you were illegal (pehaps even had other illegal stuff), and are now engaged in a (pretty successful) spin campaign.

Without seeing all the details of everything, including a motor & chassis torn down to their component parts, I don't think anyone can really know for sure which is correct.  That's true for people that think you're a god as well as those that think you're a devil.

To me, accepting that I can't know "the truth", I need to fall back on the rulings.  I say "rulings" because past history here does change my opinion.  I think being found to have cheated (or "ruled illegal") after your past history warrents dismissal from the SCCA.  You lost your chance to have an excuse or an "I made a mistake" by virtue of past actions.

I've never had any particular problem with you personally, and if its true that the only illegal thing was a minor valve spring shim and that you didn't know, then I feel really bad for you.  But, just like I'd believe if I _didn't_ know the person involved, the results need to speak for themselves here, intentions just don't matter.

Mark

Not knowing, I must ask a question. If the SCCA decides to inspect specific areas of 5 cars, does finding a problem with ONE car in ONE place dictate stripping ANY cars down to their component parts level? Additionally, if ONE car is stripped down, why should not ALL five cars be stripped? Your assertion that a car should be stripped down is absurd on so many levels that it's laughable. If Andy did not have a "history", would you say the same thing? A protest is aimed at a particular item. If THAT item is illegal the assertion "that there must be something else wrong" is specious. A speeding ticket does not mean the driver should be investigated for child abuse. You apparently have an issue with Andy. Deal with Andy. He screwed up before, and that does NOT make him guilty of anything more than that. BTW, my politics are just left of Attila the Hun, and if someone is arrested he/she is probably guilty of something. But that guilt does not convey to EVERYTHING. The assumption that shims (acceptable on SOME cars - per service bulletins - but not others - Andy's car) mean other illegal goings on is a leap of logic that even Rush Limbaugh may have a problem with. Get over it. Andy is no actor, and was in tears over the findings. Your sanctimonious holier than thou position is ugly at every level. It's over, he has paid more than he was asked to, and it is done.

---

Bob Buxbaum
Lee's Summit, Mo.

Can't wait for Lincoln 2010 !!!!!

marka:

Howdy,

Andy Hollis:

This motor was built just prior to last year's Nats, and was a rush job.  It was built from a junk yard core.  When new valve springs were not available in time, I asked that the originals be used.  Shimming was never discussed, and the builder had the shop manual and was directed to only do approved procedures.  Regardless, the motor is not legal and I take full responsibility for that, and will suffer the consequences.

You never checked valve clearances in a year of events, over two nationals and who knows how many tours & pros?

 

The valve spring shims have nothing to do with valve clearances you moron!!!  If you weren't specifically looking for shims under the valve spring, you would have never have known they were there.  In this case, the shim in question had been pulverized and was mushroomed out from under the spring which is why it was spotted in the first place...  It wasn't "hidden" intentionally or covered up.  The machine shop simply used the shims as a counter measure for the slightly out of tolerance, worn original valve springs.  STOP MAKING THIS MORE THAN IT IS!!!

AS FOR TELLING ME TO FOLLOW MY OWN ADVISE, UNTIL YOU ARE ASKED TO BE PUT IN THE POSITION I WAS ASKED TO DO YESTERDAY, AND AVOID RUMORS AND SPECULATION AND HERESAY, UNTIL THE PROTESTEE OR P/C HAD MADE THERE FINDINGS OFFICIAL PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE, I'M NOT AT LIBERTY TO STATE MY FINDINGS... END OF DISCUSSION.

SORRY FOR MY TONE ON THE FORUMS AND THREAD BUT THIS IS ALREADY BEATING A DEAD HORSE.  SO PLEASE, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO ANDY AND STOP ALL THE RUMORS AND SPECULATIONS.  I ALREADY TOLD YOU ALL HOW I FELT BEFORE AND YOU GUYS CONTINUE TO MAKE IT OUT MORE THAN IT IS.  SOME OF YOU DON'T EVEN EITHER : 1. HAVE A DOG IN THIS FIGHT, 2. DON'T EVEN COME TO NATS, FOR YOUR OWN REASONS, I'M SURE, OR 3. DON'T KNOW SH@# ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OR ABOUT THE EVENTS THAT TRANSPIRED, OTHER THAN PETTY GOSSIP SO PLEASE, KEEP YOUR DISRESPECTFUL COMMENTS TO YOURSELF!!!

 

I'M OUT!!!

Tim Herron 

 

P.S.  Sorry, Andy, for being so angry but these people make me sick! 

---

Tim Herron
#195?
Unsure of what class is next.....

Howdy,

snaponbob:

Your assertion that a car should be stripped down is absurd on so many levels that it's laughable. If Andy did not have a "history", would you say the same thing? A protest is aimed at a particular item. If THAT item is illegal the assertion "that there must be something else wrong" is specious. A speeding ticket does not mean the driver should be investigated for child abuse. You apparently have an issue with Andy. Deal with Andy. He screwed up before, and that does NOT make him guilty of anything more than that. BTW, my politics are just left of Attila the Hun, and if someone is arrested he/she is probably guilty of something. But that guilt does not convey to EVERYTHING. The assumption that shims (acceptable on SOME cars - per service bulletins - but not others - Andy's car) mean other illegal goings on is a leap of logic that even Rush Limbaugh may have a problem with. Get over it. Andy is no actor, and was in tears over the findings. Your sanctimonious holier than thou position is ugly at every level. It's over, he has paid more than he was asked to, and it is done.

Dude, read what I wrote, not what you _think_ I wrote.

What I said was that they stopped looking when they found something illegal, so we'll never know if there was more.  I'm not asserting that there was, merely pointing out (what should be) the obvious that _we don't know_.  And absent that knowledge, I'm going to go with the results of the protest & past history.

As to whether or not past history should be involved when determining penalties, since you apparently want to draw parallels to the US justice system... Who should get the stiffer penalty... A first time DUI offender or a second time offender?

Mark

Howdy,

Tim Herron:

The valve spring shims have nothing to do with valve clearances you moron!!!  If you weren't specifically looking for shims under the valve spring, you would have never have known they were there.

I see.  So tech was asked to check for shims under valve springs then?

oh wait...

 

In this case, the shim in question had been pulverized and was mushroomed out from under the spring which is why it was spotted in the first place...

So it _was_ visible on cursory inspection.

You know, when I pull a valve cover, I don't wear blinders so that I can only see the parts I need to actually put tools on.

But, if it makes you feel better... You don't find it just a wee bit suspect that Andy, a guy who spends more time dedicated to finding every possible advantage in autox than anyone else I know, decided to leave the original tired valve springs in his "rush built for nationals the prior year" motor? 

 

  It wasn't "hidden" intentionally or covered up.  The machine shop simply used the shims as a counter measure for the slightly out of tolerance, worn original valve springs.  STOP MAKING THIS MORE THAN IT IS!!!

AS FOR TELLING ME TO FOLLOW MY OWN ADVISE, UNTIL YOU ARE ASKED TO BE PUT IN THE POSITION I WAS ASKED TO DO YESTERDAY, AND AVOID RUMORS AND SPECULATION AND HERESAY, UNTIL THE PROTESTEE OR P/C HAD MADE THERE FINDINGS OFFICIAL PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE, I'M NOT AT LIBERTY TO STATE MY FINDINGS... END OF F@#$ING DISCUSSION.

SORRY FOR MY TONE ON THE FORUMS AND THREAD BUT THIS IS ALREADY BEATING A DEAD HORSE.  SO PLEASE, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO ANDY AND STOP ALL THE RUMORS AND SPECULATIONS.  I ALREADY TOLD YOU ALL HOW I FELT BEFORE AND YOU GUYS CONTINUE TO MAKE IT OUT MORE THAN IT IS.  SOME OF YOU DON'T EVEN EITHER : 1. HAVE A DOG IN THIS FIGHT, 2. DON'T EVEN COME TO NATS, FOR YOUR OWN REASONS, I'M SURE, OR 3. DON'T KNOW SH@# ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OR ABOUT THE EVENTS THAT TRANSPIRED, OTHER THAN PETTY GOSSIP SO PLEASE, KEEP YOUR DISRESPECTFUL COMMENTS TO YOURSELF!!!

 

I'M OUT!!!

Tim Herron 

 

P.S.  Sorry, Andy, for being so angry but these people make me sick! 

Yeah... Disrespectful... Who called who a moron again?

If you really believe that whether or not I came to nationals should have any bearing on the "validity" of my opinion on this stuff.... Well, I guess I'll just have to say I disagree with you.  I imagine that out of the 1100 folks at nationals, perhaps 10 actually had any more knowledge than I do of what _really_ happened.

It sounds like you were on the PC.  If this modification had no performance benefit, why was the penalty a DQ?  Andy said he decided not to appeal, not that he withdrew.

As for the advice to direct inqueries to Andy... Now _that's_ something that should make you sick.  "Hey, let's ask the guy if he's cheating.... Nope?  Ok then, carry on!"

Unlike you, I don't particularly care about Andy one way or the other on this.  You'll notice that I laid out _both_ perspectives and didn't say which I agreed with... That's because I don't know which I agree with.  What I _do_ care about is that Andy get treated like anyone else would if they were in this position.  And I think anyone else would be out on his ass as a pariah in the community.  For pete's sake, the idiot that borrowed the radiator hose is (according to the forums which I know are horrible things) out on his butt for the next year and everyone thinks he's the hugest jerk around... And that hose was put back on the car with no lasting damage or a car that ran in an illegal state.

Mark

(edit:  You are not the only person that has ever been in this situation.  I understand that it sucks, having been through it before myself.  Try and remember that reasonable people can, and do, disagree about things.)

marka:

Howdy,

snaponbob:

Your assertion that a car should be stripped down is absurd on so many levels that it's laughable. If Andy did not have a "history", would you say the same thing? A protest is aimed at a particular item. If THAT item is illegal the assertion "that there must be something else wrong" is specious. A speeding ticket does not mean the driver should be investigated for child abuse. You apparently have an issue with Andy. Deal with Andy. He screwed up before, and that does NOT make him guilty of anything more than that. BTW, my politics are just left of Attila the Hun, and if someone is arrested he/she is probably guilty of something. But that guilt does not convey to EVERYTHING. The assumption that shims (acceptable on SOME cars - per service bulletins - but not others - Andy's car) mean other illegal goings on is a leap of logic that even Rush Limbaugh may have a problem with. Get over it. Andy is no actor, and was in tears over the findings. Your sanctimonious holier than thou position is ugly at every level. It's over, he has paid more than he was asked to, and it is done.

Dude, read what I wrote, not what you _think_ I wrote.

What I said was that they stopped looking when they found something illegal, so we'll never know if there was more.  I'm not asserting that there was, merely pointing out (what should be) the obvious that _we don't know_.  And absent that knowledge, I'm going to go with the results of the protest & past history.

As to whether or not past history should be involved when determining penalties, since you apparently want to draw parallels to the US justice system... Who should get the stiffer penalty... A first time DUI offender or a second time offender?

Mark

Mark, I actually DID read what you wrote. Quite a few times. How in the world can one see shims as a tell tale clue to anything else? Do illegal springs mean an illegal flywheel? What the hell are you trying to actually prove. Tim was asked to inspect Andy's car. Amazing, considering that Tim competes in the same class is a solid vote for Tim's honesty and integrity. In A/S Doug Gill was inspecting air boxes. Apparently he found nothing wrong. Should he have looked further? If something is wrong that does not mean anything else is wrong, and if nothing is found wrong that does mean that everything is right. There was not a protest in Andy's class, there was a specific inspection. They were not looking for anything esle, and asserting that ANYBODY'S car should been torn down to its nuts and bolts is just plain stupid. And if you are even obliquely questioning Tim's integrity, people in the central US will be taking numbers to stand in line to help you understand how wrong you are.

---

Bob Buxbaum
Lee's Summit, Mo.

Can't wait for Lincoln 2010 !!!!!

Battle2.0eg:

Andy, There is no sense in diffusing a bomb after it has already gone off.

 Your cylinder head was modified way beyond what you are telling everyone. In order to even install shims into a d16a6 cylinder head you would need to shave down your spring seats topside or your valve seals will not install properly. This means you definetly had a multi angle valve job probably done on a Serdi machine material removal here is the reason why your installed height is a lil off. Why stop at this why not blend the bottom of the ports a lil bit maybe do some bowl work...And i would also like to add stock honda springs simply do not have the spring pressure to hammer shims down as you say.

 

 

These shims have a hole in the middle large enough to go around the valve seal and lay against the seat.  As such, they move around relative to each other which is what probably caused one of them to squish out.  I suspect they are for a Miata, since that is what the shop usually builds.  Mazda includes shimming in the shop manual as a means for re-establishing spring height for Miatas.

As for multi-angle valve jobs, that is exactly what the standard Honda spec is (3-angle).

--Andy

 

typerr:

The other thread also mentions titanium retainers. How do you explain that? Rush builds do not normally get expensive parts.....

 Not sure what you are asking.  The retainers are normal Honda retainers.  The only thing out of the ordinary was the shims. Not sure wher this idea of Ti parts came from.

You must have checked valve lash after breaking in the motor.......the shimming should have been obvious....

Actually, I did not.  I usually only do that once a year.  And haven't even done it this year.  As for being obvious, you can't see the shims at all.  It was the one that was all squished (I'll try and get a pic) that stood out like a sore thumb.  It's really mangled.

--Andy

Tim Herron:

I will not speak of any more facts of the matter out of the utmost LOVE and RESPECT I have for Andy Hollis.  If he allows me to be more forthcoming in the findings, then I may speak more of the situation until then, nothing more will discussed of the specifics unless Andy allows me to speak.  TO WHICH NONE OF WHOM HAVE POSTED OR REPLIED EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT-SO SHUT UP!!!!!

Feel free to say whatever you want, Tim.  I have nothing to hide here.

And thank you for assisting the protest committee, as well as helping put the motor back together.

--Andy

Howdy,

snaponbob:

Mark, I actually DID read what you wrote. Quite a few times. How in the world can one see shims as a tell tale clue to anything else? Do illegal springs mean an illegal flywheel? What the hell are you trying to actually prove. Tim was asked to inspect Andy's car. Amazing, considering that Tim competes in the same class is a solid vote for Tim's honesty and integrity. In A/S Doug Gill was inspecting air boxes. Apparently he found nothing wrong. Should he have looked further? If something is wrong that does not mean anything else is wrong, and if nothing is found wrong that does mean that everything is right. There was not a protest in Andy's class, there was a specific inspection. They were not looking for anything esle, and asserting that ANYBODY'S car should been torn down to its nuts and bolts is just plain stupid. And if you are even obliquely questioning Tim's integrity, people in the central US will be taking numbers to stand in line to help you understand how wrong you are.

Yeah, that's it.  I'm questioning Tim's integrity.  Good catch.

Mark

(oh, I'm never sarcastic either.)

Nice try. I have been thrown under the bus by better than you. Disregarding the Tim reference, try addressing the logic in the rest of the assertions. You were not there, and the assumption that Andy's car was riddled with illegalities is entirely BS. Forgetting WHOSE car it was, your assertions are beyond absurd.

---

Bob Buxbaum
Lee's Summit, Mo.

Can't wait for Lincoln 2010 !!!!!

Howdy, 

snaponbob:

Nice try. I have been thrown under the bus by better than you. Disregarding the Tim reference, try addressing the logic in the rest of the assertions. You were not there, and the assumption that Andy's car was riddled with illegalities is entirely BS. Forgetting WHOSE car it was, your assertions are beyond absurd.

Here, I bolded the important part for you:

marka:

So much of this can be looked at from different perspectives... One perspective is that you're a standup guy who made a mistake and learned his lesson in the past, you didn't know anything was illegal, and are going overboard with retribution for the current problem by not fighting the penalty & voluntarily giving stuff back.

But the other perspective is that you knew you were illegal (pehaps even had other illegal stuff), and are now engaged in a (pretty successful) spin campaign.

Without seeing all the details of everything, including a motor & chassis torn down to their component parts, I don't think anyone can really know for sure which is correct.

In case its not clear, I'm included in "anyone".

Mark

So there are 1100 cars at Nationals. Apparently NOBODY can be trusted and everybody should be stripped to the primer coats. EVERYBODY under the bus. Andy is a cheat, Tim is biased, the inspection process is flawed, the Protest Committee is incompetent. In another thread you kick Andy in the nuts and hope that he understands, and here you imply that people can't read without seeing words in bold type. Andy's car was found illegal. Jumping to the conclusion (based on YOUR measure of past history nearly 2 decades ago) that he was proactively cheating is horse crap. PROVE it. If it was anybody else (with no known history) but Andy would you be so judgemental? If so, nobody will ever want to see you on a PC. "Your Honor, we the jury find the defendant guilty of speeding in a school zone. SHOOT him."

---

Bob Buxbaum
Lee's Summit, Mo.

Can't wait for Lincoln 2010 !!!!!

marka:

You never checked valve clearances in a year of events, over two nationals and who knows how many tours & pros?

Correct.  I usually only do it once a year.  I also hadn't changed the oil or the plugs since last year (other than the break-in oil).  The latter two I got done at HPT.  I've been on the road so much this year that I haven't been able to do even the simplest stuff on the car.  I've been spending more time fixing the motorhome (165K miles) and trailer (250K miles).

The problem with all this is that the officials stop as soon as they find a single thing that's illegal, so we'll never know if there was something else.

Yep.  And exactly the quandry I am in now.  That said, I have a pretty good idea of why they did the shimming since it is legal on Miatas and most of their business is building Spec Miata motors. More on this below.

So much of this can be looked at from different perspectives... One perspective is that you're a standup guy who made a mistake and learned his lesson in the past, you didn't know anything was illegal, and are going overboard with retribution for the current problem by not fighting the penalty & voluntarily giving stuff back.

That's pretty much it.  I don't want a dime from this season because I don't want anyone to think that I stole money from them.  Even if I am personally convinced that there was no performance advantage (I'll pull apart the head apart when I get home from seeing some friends for a couple of weeks).  Perceptions become reality, though, and I know folks are going to think the worst.

And I did not appeal even though I feel better than 50/50 that I could have proved the lack of performance advantage by taking apart all of the spring assemblies, not just the two.  I wanted the class to be able to walk the stage and have their moment.  Tim especially deserved that, as he drove out of his mind the second day.  I knew that even if I prevailed on appeal that the Court of Public Opinion would hang me anyway.  Best to at least let these guys have due recognition.

Without seeing all the details of everything, including a motor & chassis torn down to their component parts, I don't think anyone can really know for sure which is correct.  That's true for people that think you're a god as well as those that think you're a devil.

Agreed.  And I'd be happy to post up some pics once I get them together.

I'd also be willing to bet that other folks have stuff like this wrong in their motors, too.   There are many repair procedures that are common to most machine shops that are against our rules.  For example, bead blasting the head for cleaning.  That is the one which got Meiritz/DeSpelder on an impound inspection a number of years ago.  No fault of their own.

To me, accepting that I can't know "the truth", I need to fall back on the rulings.  I say "rulings" because past history here does change my opinion.  I think being found to have cheated (or "ruled illegal") after your past history warrents dismissal from the SCCA.  You lost your chance to have an excuse or an "I made a mistake" by virtue of past actions.

Interesting perspective.  

This, despite the fact that I did my time, paid my fine, and then overcompensated by volunteering my spare time to serve the sport (over a decade on the SEB and various ACs, Pro Solo Quickstart, Cone Clinics, etc.). Not to mention the personal strife that whole thing caused me for 20 years.   I am sorry that is not enough for you.

I've never had any particular problem with you personally, and if its true that the only illegal thing was a minor valve spring shim and that you didn't know, then I feel really bad for you.  But, just like I'd believe if I _didn't_ know the person involved, the results need to speak for themselves here, intentions just don't matter.

Well Mark, I'm not sure what else to do to convince you, unless you want to come down here and tear the motor apart with me. Seriously.

On the former point, here is a message from one of the two guys who did the build.  Ed no longer works for ART and he gave me permission to post it here.  As mentioned in the GRM article on the Miata, Ed does the bottom ends and Karl does the heads.

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Andy,
 This news bring me much pain and anguish, I know how important it was for you to be 100% legal on this motor. I was very clear with Karl and told him why it had to be. All the shop manual pages you provided were reviewed and were to be used as a guide for the build. If there is no provision in the manual for returning the valve spring height, or seat pressure after cutting seats and refacing valves, then the shims are wrong. 
 I will gladly speak publicly on your behalf and take any and all blame for the shims in the head. It came out of my shop and I assured you a legal motor. You did not do anything wrong nor did you ask for anything other than a legal motor. 
Issues like this are why I have distanced myself from Karl, yet I feel responsible because it happened on my watch.
 
Sincerely
Mr Ed

I've sent Ed a link to this thread so he may pop up here soon.

--Andy

 

Andy, I'm sorry to hear about your troubles at Nationals.  Take next year off and co-drive my new EP car at the '09 Nationals... we don't have B.S. like this in Prepared!

For the rest of you, if this matter had no impact on your class, why are you here, and so troubled by this?  People get protested all the time, many with intentional items that actually make a difference.  I don't remember seeing those people's character attacked on public forums.  I've known Andy for many years and contend that I know him better than most of those who have posted here.  As an SEB member, I probably disagreed with Andy 90% of the time... but you know what?  He is an honest, stand-up guy.  If you live in the ST world, you owe him more than this as he helped mold the classes, you all love so much, from nothing.

I see no need for Andy to defend himself any further here.  If you have a problem with Andy, give him a call.  I guarantee he'll take the time to talk to you.... but I bet most of you won't.

 

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EP 182 - 1987 Toyota Corolla GTS