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jorober5:

4) I feel bad for anyone that doesn't get into an event they would like to get into.   

If this was directed towards what I said, I would like to go on record as saying that I really don't care if FJ runs Nationally or not. It really doesn't bother me one way or another.

However, I don't think it's the place of a competitor to tell Nancy Downing that the entry caps aren't supposed to include FJ. For one, I read that on a non-SCCA forum as hearsay (Donnie said that Howard said...). If anyone should be the one to say something to her, it should be Howard. IMO, of course.

It's still my codriver's fault for waiting until April to sign up (though he didn't know he was going to be codriving with me until then). <shrug>

CamaroFS34:

jorober5:

4) I feel bad for anyone that doesn't get into an event they would like to get into.   

If this was directed towards what I said,

 
Not at all, I actually missed your post all together.  I didn't want to get into it, but my point was that over the last couple of years there has been (IMHO) a bit of a mess for the registration for certain (popular) events.  It's crazy when we start getting up at dark-o-clock to *register* for events because we are scared we won't get in. If it weren't for one of my friends, I would have missed the DC pro this year (I got a phone call to remind me that registration was about full). 

I'm not trying to make a statement that karts are more or less important than other entrants, just that in stinks for *anyone* who wants to get in but doesn't.

Jonathan Roberts

P.S.  I may get flamed for this, but since it is pretty well established that the formula junior karts take *more* time on course, why is their entry fee less?  I understand that their presence may boost membership, much as ladies classes do, but ladies classes don't cost less???

 

Just to be clear Jonathan, they don't necessarily take more time on course as FJB's can be as fast as A Stock and FJA's can be 3 seconds faster than that.... [Edit: At Pro Solos, they lose a lot of time because of the drag start and run more like H Stock times]
It's the fact that the cars have to stop moving to allow them to run, and wait for them to finish.  But for the record, they start the event earlier than normal at many National events, and often add no extra time to the day.

That said, I'll attempt to guess at the entry fee difference type of question.  One reason I could see is that the parents are paying for them (as they aren't allowed to work at this age) and it's an effort to help the family's afford it?  I can tell you that it's not exciting to pay four entry fees for any event, but it is exciting to be able to compete together as a family.

Brian

I'm still pissed I can't get the "student" price at movies anymore............

To say nothing of the "child" ticket as Disney World...........

Or Denny's kids eat free Tuesday's

CamaroFS34:

However, I don't think it's the place of a competitor to tell Nancy Downing that the entry caps aren't supposed to include FJ. For one, I read that on a non-SCCA forum as hearsay (Donnie said that Howard said...). If anyone should be the one to say something to her, it should be Howard. IMO, of course.

Then tell Howard there's a discrepancy.  It's not my job to relay hearsay to him for you, and bothering him with it so he can get Nancy to fix it doesn't seem to make much sense to me anyway.  I'm guessing that Howard intends for the FJ's to not count against the entry cap but either Nancy didn't know that -or- (more likely) she just hasn't gotten to straightening out DC yet.  I'd guess the automated system has no way to account for skipping FJ's against the cap and thus it has to be done manually.

--Donnie 

djb_rh:

I'd guess the automated system has no way to account for skipping FJ's against the cap and thus it has to be done manually. 

And that is more than likely the real reason.

I won't bother Nancy with it, mainly because I've already been bothering her by constantly asking where my codriver is on the waitlist. ;) As I said, he's the one who didn't register when it opened, though to his credit, he didn't squat a spot by registering without knowing what he'd be driving this year.

Howdy,

Overall, I like FJ at Solo events.  Like Sam and Pat however, I always considered it to be more of  a "hey, you get to have fun too!" thing vs. something with competition as the primary goal.  As such, I thought splitting FJ into four classes was a bit crazy, and I'm 100% opposed to those classes being eligible for awards that puts them in competition with adults (like for regional driver of the year programs).  The last thing a kid needs to overhear is an adult bitching because the FJ pax is stupidly low or whatever and that the kid actually sucks as a driver.  Maybe the adult in question would be an ass to say that, but maybe not too.  That's all part of "competition" though, and I don't think its appropriate to put adults and kids in competition like that.

However, kids above a certain level certainly could have a place at national events.  They run well, know what they're doing, etc.  The time issue could be addressed by having different safety rules for FJ at national events than at local events... They should have the same rules as F125 karts.  The risks are identical (low vehicle, etc.) and the safety rules should be as well.  That would dramatically help the time issue.

The only thing it would require is some level of expertise on the kid's part so that they don't do something dumb out of ignorance or lack of experience with the controls, or whatever.  And, since parents (I'm one, btw) often have no ability to judge their child rationally, we'd need some way to establish that experience level.  Perhaps its "must have run at ten local autox events".  Perhaps its something else.

If you're going to have the kids at national events, make the kids 'real' national competitors.  Do that, and I think the time/delay issues start to fall away.  Until that happens though, I'm opposed to FJ running at any events past the divisional level.

Mark

Very inciteful post Mark.  Thank you.  Perhaps a ladder program similar to what many states are doing for driver's licenses now.

BTW, people who complain about easy PAX and things like that need to remember something:  It's not difficult for a smart, good driving kid to get close to 100% out of a 9hp kart.  In other words, throw a Darrin Disimo (sorry Darrin) in an FJ kart and it's not going to go any faster.  And isn't that what PAX is about, a fully prepped car, with the driver extracting the maximum from it?
Take it for what it is, a way to judge an individual's improving performance.
Given that, no, it should not be used for competition, "Driver of the Year", etc.  It's simply a reference tool, not a lawbook.

Now that we're completely off topic....See everyone at the Toledo Pro!!

Brian
 

Garfield:

Very inciteful post Mark.  Thank you.  Perhaps a ladder program similar to what many states are doing for driver's licenses now.

Brian

That would have cured what happened in Atlanta, too.  Great idea. 

Garfield:

Very inciteful post Mark.  Thank you. 

Brian

 Haha...Brian, you have NO idea (yet),  how humorous that line is, or maybe you do, and I underappreciate your humor!!...given especially that it is from Mark.   Let me explain...

in·sight·ful (in sīt′fəl; in′sīt′-)

All in good fun Tracy, saw it was spelled wrong (Macs underline everything), but forgot to change it...  But, oh, yeah, I did that on purpose!

Brian

Like adults, there are children of various mental ages.  As I said before, I think there are really sharp kids around... there are more that aren't 10 going on 30.  Some could be an announcers assitant, that's true.  Some might graduate high school @ 14 too, but that's not the norm.

I've been an announce assitant, and I've seen some really, really bad ones who are adults.  That doesn't condemn all kids, and it's a job they'd be "legal" to do but that in no way means they'd do it well.  I've seen kids make adults want to flip with their "why is the sky blue" kind of questions, and even doens't keep work from being done, it's at minimum a distraction.

 Furthermore, there are no annouce assitants @ Pro's, and I would prefer that my information @ Nationals be the best it can be... again, not a place for a 8, 10 year old.  *MAYBE* a 12-year old. 

 Brian, I think think Julian (and I'd guess Carson, though we've never talked) is a sharp kid.  He's not alone, but that's also not the norm.

 I know you put a lot of time and effort into the kid's karts.... but they can also go run them on tracks to (and in fact I think at leat you have Julian doing just that).  I don't believe they need, or have a right to do everything and adult does.  And as much as I hate to say it, the wants of the few are outweighing the wants of many.

 The talent show has lost acts and had acts banned because there are children in the audience.  Take them outside, I don't need to be watching Nickelodeon because of it.  The fact is of the 1150 odd folks, 1100 will be adults.  And fwiw, FJ's never ran nationals before but that didn't stop kids that ran them like JT and Christine Berry from running competitively as they grew out of FJ's. 

- I have never seen an event being held up by the FJ classes if it is planned correctly. Keep in mind that I come from a region that has had 300+ person events before.

- Isn't it amazing how many of the sharp kids are racing in the karts?  almost like it is a reward not a privlage... 

 - I never ran the kart on a track.  If my dad had offered it I probably would have said no.  As a kid (and as a female, I accept that) I was too uncomfortable with the idea of running with other people near me on course.

- If I had had the ability to run Nationals as a FJ driver, I would have said yes, and probably would have been told that it all depends on my grades.

- As a former FJ driver it makes me very sad to hear you say that they should be excluded from National events, especially Pros.  Pros are my favorite type of solo event.  And my love of Pros began while I was in FJ.  I have talked to several new drivers in the Ladies classes that say they dislike Pros because of the start.  What a better way is there to learn the starts than in a kart where all you have to do is floor it?

Christine Berry

oops, forgot another point I wanted to make:

While I ran FJ, I got to meet kids from other regions.  If you come from a region with only one or two kids competing it is nice to know how fast you should be going every once in a while.  Example:  I remember one pro solo where another one of the karters was being all high and mighty about how often he won in his region.  He was not confident at the end of the weekend when he got beat by a girl 

 Christine Berry

marka:

However, kids above a certain level certainly could have a place at national events.  They run well, know what they're doing, etc.  The time issue could be addressed by having different safety rules for FJ at national events than at local events... They should have the same rules as F125 karts.  The risks are identical (low vehicle, etc.) and the safety rules should be as well.  That would dramatically help the time issue.

The only thing it would require is some level of expertise on the kid's part so that they don't do something dumb out of ignorance or lack of experience with the controls, or whatever.  And, since parents (I'm one, btw) often have no ability to judge their child rationally, we'd need some way to establish that experience level.  Perhaps its "must have run at ten local autox events".  Perhaps its something else.

My personal feeling is that National Events should require a driver's license regardless of what type of car they are driving. 

Howdy,

modernbeat:

My personal feeling is that National Events should require a driver's license regardless of what type of car they are driving. 

I don't think thats appropriate really... The FJ program is targeted at kids who are what... 8 years old and up?  In some states you can't get a driver's license until you're 18.

I think you have be able to demostrate some ability... Perhaps 10 regional autocrosses or 5 kart races (or a driver's license, if you're not in one of the silly states)?  Certainly there are plenty of kids out there in karts that are awfully darned good.  To me, the thing I don't want to see at a national event is someone that's never been in one before.  I don't want to see that as an entrant because its likely to cause event delays.  I don't want to see that as a Safety Steward because that kid may well get flustered and forget how to stop the kart or steer it, or know where to go, or whatever.  I think this is the primary reason why no car can be moving when FJ is running... Because you have to plan for the FJ driver that is totally unable to control the vehicle or make decent decisions about where to go.

But with ten events under their belts, I bet most kids would be just fine, and would be able to safely run without the "no vehicles can be in motion" rule.  When that happens, the FJ driver is truely just another entrant with no issues other than they can't work some of the jobs for the event.  I'm not particularly worried about their work assignment, and I don't think most other folks are either.

Mark

marka:

I think you have be able to demostrate some ability... Perhaps 10 regional autocrosses or 5 kart races (or a driver's license, if you're not in one of the silly states)?  Certainly there are plenty of kids out there in karts that are awfully darned good.  To me, the thing I don't want to see at a national event is someone that's never been in one before.  I don't want to see that as an entrant because its likely to cause event delays.  I don't want to see that as a Safety Steward because that kid may well get flustered and forget how to stop the kart or steer it, or know where to go, or whatever.  I think this is the primary reason why no car can be moving when FJ is running... Because you have to plan for the FJ driver that is totally unable to control the vehicle or make decent decisions about where to go.

But with ten events under their belts, I bet most kids would be just fine, and would be able to safely run without the "no vehicles can be in motion" rule.  When that happens, the FJ driver is truely just another entrant with no issues other than they can't work some of the jobs for the event.  I'm not particularly worried about their work assignment, and I don't think most other folks are either.

Mark

That's funny you should say that Mark, because that's exactly how many I proposed to the committee to discuss.  There are some other suggestions that will be made, but the number of events usually does the trick.  For some, 10 events might be more than two seasons, for others, less than a season, but I think it's a good number as well.

Agree or disagree, if other people would like to discuss this topic in more detail, please do so in an appropriate thread under the FJR headings on this board, the official SCCA one, or the Formula Junior Yahoo Group that exists with over 120 members.  It's more helpful in those locations where the interested parties can more easily discuss it.

I think we've tired out the "Toledo Pro" heading...  

Thanks,
Brian 

01 FS Z28:

  And fwiw, FJ's never ran nationals before but that didn't stop kids that ran them like JT and Christine Berry from running competitively as they grew out of FJ's. 

Jarrod, SM #78/178

aka, "one of those EVO guys"