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i spent a total of 3 minutes on my plan.  forgive me.  ha.

there is the third class, showroom stock, which would be the same as it is now - minus carpet and seats.  i think our dictator could keep costs low and still even the fields.  if not, boot his butt out come election time.

luke

Mrsideways:

Luke you speak of grand am like lets got get us a car hook it up behind the ole pickem up truck and call it a weekend.  It's not something individuals driving showroom stock cars can afford.

 Yeah agree.. Can someone here tell us how much a GAC weekend costs assuming you already had a built car?  How much is a "hopeful top 10" GAC car cost?  $50k?  I know a decent rental runs $5-10k for a single weekend

lukerussell:

i spent a total of 3 minutes on my plan.  forgive me.  ha.

there is the third class, showroom stock, which would be the same as it is now - minus carpet and seats.  i think our dictator could keep costs low and still even the fields.  if not, boot his butt out come election time.

luke

 

Add in a "homeowner association" rule of 2/3 of the members eligible to vote can vote to REMOVE your ass at anytime and I am in :) 

After seeing the terrible turn out this weekend at Road Atlanta, I don't think anyone should be tampering or threatening to tamper with anything right now. Lack of stability is killing the classes. The excessive number of races (in the SEDiv) is also making it so competitors are not turning out. With 13 races and two out of region races allowed, the divisional championships will have little to do with competition and more with race selection. We raced Summit and had 9 cars in SSB, two weeks later we are the only car at Road Atlanta......? Two cars qualify for SSC, but 5 start the race.......? I skipped bringing the Civic because the track is not my favorite, in that car. The price of fuel for the tow rig and race car ate up the budget for a 2nd entry. Let's fix some of the classes that consistently have 1-2 car fields and get some sanity into the scheuling process.

As far as Rob running fast at Road Atlanta with no competition, he got a great start and tried to stay out of the Spec Miata race by keeping in front of them. When they started to gain on him the team owner (me) suggested he find a safe hole mid-pack in their race and watch the fun. Without the coaching, he knows only one speed - flat out! Must have gotten his driving skills from his mother!

Brad

SSCRacer:

As far as Rob running fast at Road Atlanta with no competition, he got a great start and tried to stay out of the Spec Miata race by keeping in front of them. When they started to gain on him the team owner (me) suggested he find a safe hole mid-pack in their race and watch the fun. Without the coaching, he knows only one speed - flat out! Must have gotten his driving skills from his mother!

Brad

You got my point :)  He probably would have been faster if Scorna was there for instance ;)

Jmarc36, under the new process it is pretty simple to balance SSC. Currently they are all front wheel drive. The only wrinkle is the old trunk kit cars that are about to time out. I believe the four cars that are competitive in SSC are the Cobalt, Civic SI, Mazda 3 and the new Accord. There is several other cars that are at process weight such as the RSX, Scion TC, Corolla XRS to name a few. You will see in the July Fastrack that a couple of cars have received weight reductions and the new Focus has been classed. The new Focus is classified at process weight and below what the requester asked for. In the recent past we have reduced the weight of the Neon. We are only looking at the old cars when there is a letter requesting an adjustment. Right or wrong that is how it has been done in the past. If you can think of any other car we have our heads up our a$$ about, please send a letter. 

I agree that the Mini was a debacle, but I can not take any of the blame for it going to SSC because it was before my time. You can also not blame the CRB for a directive that came from the BOD. Anything constructive would be greatly appreciated. PK

08 Ford Focus will NOT be a factor in SSC, 2.0L POS motor and rear drum brakes..........

pkeane:

Jmarc36, under the new process it is pretty simple to balance SSC. Currently they are all front wheel drive. The only wrinkle is the old trunk kit cars that are about to time out. I believe the four cars that are competitive in SSC are the Cobalt, Civic SI, Mazda 3 and the new Accord. There is several other cars that are at process weight such as the RSX, Scion TC, Corolla XRS to name a few. You will see in the July Fastrack that a couple of cars have received weight reductions and the new Focus has been classed. The new Focus is classified at process weight and below what the requester asked for. In the recent past we have reduced the weight of the Neon. We are only looking at the old cars when there is a letter requesting an adjustment. Right or wrong that is how it has been done in the past. If you can think of any other car we have our heads up our a$$ about, please send a letter. 

 

I agree that the Mini was a debacle, but I can not take any of the blame for it going to SSC because it was before my time. You can also not blame the CRB for a directive that came from the BOD. Anything constructive would be greatly appreciated. PK

Forgive me if I seem a little upset, and understand that it it not aimed at you personaly. But, the fact remains that everytime the CRB decides to mess with a class, it gets screwed up. The Mini deal was a big mistake, and NOBODY on the CRB would listen when we, as a group yelled long and loud. Hell, I talked to the chairman via phone on at least two occasions early in the game, and his whole thing was"lets wait and see what happens". Well we waited, the rest is history. Two years of waiting, and in the end, what do we have? A class that used to be very close, with good size fields all over the country, and a very deep talent pool was reduced to a class with much smaller fields, and really only the folks who really loved the class running it.  The rest, well some of them got disgusted and just plain left the scca( Ryan hold up your hand), and some moved to B because ya'll moved the mini there after two years of bitching, and lots of folks buying what was the COY( well two years), and some are still here, just watching, trying to figure out what you guys will pull next.

Now you want to combine B and C.Well thats ok, BUT you need to have some type of feedback loop in place and some plan to adjust the playing field on a week to week basis, not year to year. There should be someway to adjust the cars to make them more closely competitive. Ok, in the real world, there are some track that favor car a, and some that favor car b, and even more tracks that favor car c. What do you do to fix the problem? How do you make a car  faster to catch the new overdog? You can't just add weight and restrictors, it just does not work, again, look at the Mini.

Your statement" under the new process it is pretty simple to balance SSC", sounds great, but give me a clue, just how the Hell do you intend to do it. What is the PLAN?! Give us details! Tell me, the poor SOB that has to live with(or not) your "process", what you guys have in mind. Tell me now, this year, what cars you intend to drop down to c, so that I can have some time to prepare.

Now you mention the Accord, good car, great HP, real rocket at loooong tracks, a la Road America. Hell more than likely has 12-15 mph on the 3 and the Cobalt on the top end.But it's a PIG in the turns. Has anyone built one? Not yet, but if ya watch, bet ya see a few show up next September at  RA. Sort of out of the shadows, here comes this poor little Honda, and what do ya know, wins by a lap! Starting to see the problem? You need to talk to the people who know whats going on, you need testing, you need some PLAN!

  But sitting in a room, looking at the results from the past weeks races will not give you a good view of what needs to be done. Come up with a plan that allows the CRB to make the cars equal, something based on neutral, or unbiased info. You would gain huge respect for the CRB in general if you could  do this. I have heard several good plans for this in the past, take your pick. But as a group,do something that makes sense!

BTW, the "send a letter" thing just don't fly. I have seen many, many, many well thought out requests over the years just tossed out with a very prefunctory rubber stamp reply. It's rather clear that you guys in the past have not listened to the requests that were laid at your fingers. Again, look at the Mini

Have any of you on the CRB ever stopped to ask any of us, the drivers, the racers, the folks who fork out the hard earned cash, what we think? I think not! Why not ask us what it is we want, and when you do ask, and we answer, LISTEN! It's very simple, it's our club, its our cars, it's our money. It you don't listen to us, in effect, the consumers, we will take our money, cars, and fun someplace else. Period! Pick up the phone, call us. Trust me, we are all friends in C( well nobody really likes Joel, 'cept Ryan, LOL), and we all talk about this crap all the time. Stop by some of the races, now there's a novel idea! come really see what happens in the real world!

P, no offense, but I don't know you, and I really don't trust the CRB. Hell every month I hold my breath to see if you guys have just wiped me out of the whole game with a little stroke of the pen. And I am not the only one!

You need to realize that this class, or classes(B and C), are not like they used to be when I started in c in the 80's( yes I really did, in a rabbit). You cannot just go out and buy a car from the dealer, slap in a cage and go win a race, and set a track record 2 seconds under the old mark , it is not going to happen, and if it does, take note, thats an overdog! You, the CRB, need to also realize that as a group, have done more to harm showroom stock in the past few years than all of the overdogs put together. Look at the history, accept what has been done, learn from the mistakes made by folks that sat in your chair before, and move on. Above all, LISTEN to the folks who matter, the drivers!!  If you do not, there just might not be anyone left to complain, or make those requests.

Think about it!.................JM

Well, I sat around reading all 52 posts here and I finally need to say a few words. This speculation and the nonsense you guys gathered around your telephones are planning does nothing but hurt the classes, competitors and car builders.

First and foremost, to the CRB, BOD & the rest of the decision makers: LEAVE SSC ALONE!!!!! Unless you can name me any other class that has a greater number / variety of makes & models that can be competitive, take your big stick and please go poke it somewhere else.

SSC currently has the following cars which have recently won National Races (anybody care to add a car I may have forgotten?)

    - Honda Civic Si
    - Mazda 3       
    - Chevy Cobalt
    - Toyota Corrolla XRS
    - Toyota Celica
    - Dodge Neon

Of those 6 cars, 5 of them pay contigency money for National Race wins...the other for Divisional and Runoffs wins. Why are we even considering a change to classes the manufacturers help support? This money helps our drivers pay for their weekends racing.

Secondly, I've been racing SSC for a number of years.....I personally have built a number of different makes and models and not once has my telephone rang to be asked my opinion about any of the cars. It's not like my phone number is difficult to find??? It's in my profile and on virtually every post of mine.  My point here, call the drivers...ask the guys running up front WHAT THEY THINK!  We are the ones towing to the races and spending our hard earned money.

My final thought - The Board and BOD have proven time and time again that YOU CANNOT EQUALIZE CARS IN A TIMELY MANNER. There is a simple solution that was submitted to the board and leadership of SCCA months ago. It was politely turned down. Go dig it up, it has my name on it....

Finally, a question to the BOD, Comp Board, Advisory Committee:

    > When the last time each of these people have driven a showroom stock car and/or any race car at a national race?  
    > When was the last time each of you has held a valid National Competition License with the required number of yearly races?

If you haven't been racing in these classes or have not been racing at all, maybe its time to move on to something else.... 

A final recap....leave showroom stock C alone and go somewhere else and play the rules.  If I wasn't clear about my opinion, LEAVE SSC ALONE! 

Sorry for the harsh words, but I'm getting tired of this.  We are just recovering from the Mini Cooper S crap and now we have this consolidation cast upon us. 

Best Regards to all...
Joel Lipperini
570-262-1018
www.RaceLabz.com 

jlipper81:

SSC currently has the following cars which have recently won National Races (anybody care to add a car I may have forgotten?)

    - Honda Civic Si
    - Mazda 3       
    - Chevy Cobalt
    - Toyota Corrolla XRS
    - Toyota Celica
    - Dodge Neon      

Seems like a Saturn won back in February....and there have been 1 gen and 2nd gen Neons both winnning too.... 

LD71 

Well, I sat around reading all 52 posts here and I finally need to say a few words. This speculation and the nonsense you guys gathered around your telephones are planning does nothing but hurt the classes, competitors and car builders.

First and foremost, to the CRB, BOD & the rest of the decision makers: LEAVE SSC ALONE!!!!! Unless you can name me any other class that has a greater number / variety of makes & models that can be competitive, take your big stick and please go poke it somewhere else.

SSC currently has the following cars which have recently won National Races (anybody care to add a car I may have forgotten?)

    - Honda Civic Si
    - Mazda 3       
    - Chevy Cobalt
    - Toyota Corrolla XRS
    - Toyota Celica
    - Dodge Neon
    - Saturn 

Of those 7 cars, 6 of them pay contigency money for National Race wins...the other for Divisional and Runoffs wins. Why are we even considering a change to classes the manufacturers help support? This money helps our drivers pay for their weekends racing.

Secondly, I've been racing SSC for a number of years.....I personally have built a number of different makes and models and not once has my telephone rang to be asked my opinion about any of the cars. It's not like my phone number is difficult to find??? It's in my profile and on virtually every post of mine.  My point here, call the drivers...ask the guys running up front WHAT THEY THINK!  We are the ones towing to the races and spending our hard earned money.

My final thought - The Board and BOD have proven time and time again that YOU CANNOT EQUALIZE CARS IN A TIMELY MANNER. There is a simple solution that was submitted to the board and leadership of SCCA months ago. It was politely turned down. Go dig it up, it has my name on it....

Finally, a question to the BOD, Comp Board, Advisory Committee:

    > When the last time each of these people have driven a showroom stock car and/or any race car at a national race?  
    > When was the last time each of you has held a valid National Competition License with the required number of yearly races?

If you haven't been racing in these classes or have not been racing at all, maybe its time to move on to something else.... 

A final recap....leave showroom stock C alone and go somewhere else and play the rules.  If I wasn't clear about my opinion, LEAVE SSC ALONE! 

Sorry for the harsh words, but I'm getting tired of this.  We are just recovering from the Mini Cooper S crap and now we have this consolidation cast upon us. 

Best Regards to all...
Joel Lipperini
570-262-1018
www.RaceLabz.com

Joel,

Thanks for the correction!!

---------------------------------------

Here's my thoughts on consolidation etc:

I don’t think it’s an option to forget consolidation, the BOD decided we need to reduce the number of classes, and they are right.  If you look at all the boards for the various classes, from Prod to Open Wheel to SS, everybody wants somebody else’s’ class to be consolidated.  It’s going to affect us all so we may as well get used to it.

If the CRB can do a good job of implementing this change, it will be good for Club Racing.  Like a lot of people posting, I’m tired of running against 2 or 3 other cars in class, and then seeing a small group of competitors getting yet another class added to the mix.

So how could the CRB do a good job?  First, they need to spell things out for us.  Does SSC/SSSB/T3 being put into 2 classes mean that it will be split down the middle, or slice more toward T3 or more toward SSC? I don’t know.   Seems like the first thing they would want to do  is make a list of all the cars that are being competitively raced, figure out how many will still be eligible in a few years, and try to set up 2 classes that meet the BOD directive, that will grow the # of cars in the future with the least disruption to the current competitors.  Not easy, but we won’t know how difficult it is until they do it.

Should we build the entry level class around the Saturn I drive (when the clutch doesn’t break anyway)?  No, that car was a stop gap anyway.  Old Neons?  Same.  We need to base this on the cars that are running now, and the ones that have some life left.  And take into account the cars that will be coming down the pike the next few years.

Looks to me like the Mazda3 is the best thing we have for the basis for the lower-speed class, but I would still like to have a count of the cars running today in all 3 classes before starting to figure things out.  I just hope the CRB is doing the background effort to make this work, it won’t be easy.

After this first cut, I would hope the CRB will put it out for review—don’t wait for SlowTrack, put it out on the message boards—let’s hash it out with input from us stakeholders well before we get to this year’s Runoffs!

While we’re at it, maybe Peter can explain this ‘process’ deal for those of us who really should know.  This was something that was mentioned at the Runoffs tent mtg, but no one has ever tried to explain it (that I know of).   And, I hear rumors that it was decided (pre-consolidation) to give the SSB cars some mods while the SSC cars have been left alone (except for weight)---is that true or just a rumor?

Peter, I appreciate your coming on this board and talking with us—maybe you can give us some info on the approach you guys will be taking to make consolidation work---isn’t that what we pay you the big bucks for? 

And for all you guys who don’t want consolidation, I guess the BOD has a conference call later this week, so time to start burning up the phone lines to really stir things up!

LD71 

pkeane:

Jmarc36, under the new process it is pretty simple to balance SSC. Currently they are all front wheel drive. The only wrinkle is the old trunk kit cars that are about to time out. I believe the four cars that are competitive in SSC are the Cobalt, Civic SI, Mazda 3 and the new Accord. There is several other cars that are at process weight such as the RSX, Scion TC, Corolla XRS to name a few. 

 

You can also not blame the CRB for a directive that came from the BOD. Anything constructive would be greatly appreciated. PK

The Corolla XRS and Celica should be added to "competitive in SSC".  Do you guys look at results?  Corolla XRS and Celica won plenty of races against good competition and the Celica was in the top 6 at the runoffs.

 Also no idea what "new Accord" is even being driven anywhere?  When you ask for constructive comments, they are abound in this very thread.  And I agree the BOD handed the decision down, does that mean it is a DONE DEAL already?  At the same time and while I respect your seat on the CRB and even the fact you are posting here is a huge compliment to the racers, NONE of us feel very confident in quick decisions to handle this the right way.  Even the plan without a plan laid out for where cars are going and with what done to each and the absence of a laid out plan it is hard for any of us to believe (given the track record) that the CRB will act quickly to make things as right as possible.

The paralysis will ultimately just snuff these classes out, keep people away from them and drive people away.  Given the embarassing turnout this year for races I hope someone is listening and I am personally shocked that someone somewhere believes this course of action will bring more people out to race???

Read my last post...there is a corrected list with those cars added.......

AND with a little bit of tweaking, to this list can certainly be added the:
   - Scion TC (very affordable)
   - Subaru 2.5 RS 99+ (class all the years not just the last expensive ones)
   - Sentra SER Spec (If they combine the spec lines to make the early affordable cars available)

These are cars with similar performance that are inexpensive.

Then throw in cars like the:

    - Volvo S40 awd
    - V6 Hyundai Tiburon.....should I keep going???

And a bunch of other low stressed cars and people would build them!!!  These cars are out there for sale for under $10,000 as clean running cars!!!! Some in the $5,000 range. They are fun to drive and appeal to the current market conditions....

Inexpensive, powerful and available cars to race.......

Joel