SCCAForums.com

modernbeat:

msimanyi:

MFE:

I sent an email to the SEB, how do I address the SMAC?

It will be routed there automatically for discussion.  There's no need to take any additional steps beyond your submission to the SEB.

Mike

Keep submitting it until you get a return email with a log number. 

Make sure you attach your member number.  "Member Comment" and all that. 
 

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

Justin Huffman:

1-4 all look good to me, but I'd want to change the multiplier for 3 from 1.4 (which is about right for 6-8 psi) to a more realistic 2.0.

And I'd like to see the weight minimums cap at 4.0 liters displacement, since 100 HP per liter is easy under the rules.  The SMAC has already stated that over 400 hp is relatively unusable.  Little 1.6 liter Toyota motors legal for the class often make 250 HP in Formula Atlantic trim, which is about 150 HP per liter.

Justin

Just a "for instance" on my 2.0L EVO (which currently makes 220 HP per liter on a stock size turbo)

2.0L +1.4 = 3.4 multiplier for the weight calculation = 2735# min for an EVO (current SM rule)

2.0L: x 1.4 = 2.8 multiplier for the weight caculation = 2670# min for an EVO 

2.0L x 2.0 = 4.0 multiplier for the weight calculation = 3000# min for an EVO

So do we want to speed up or slow down FI cars??? 

No need, I actually run in FM...

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"Uhh.. Is smoke supposed to be coming from there?"

I really like the 200lb weight break for 275 and under cars........Those big tires make a huge difference in putting down power....And some cars simply can't fit them because of height not width.......

 I would also REALLY like to see cars be able to UD/BD withen similar chassis generations regardless of S/P class lines.....

 

Vette guys: You need to realize that what you may consider minor mods to mini tub your car, that doesn't mean that mini tubing some other make/model, isn't going to require major surgery. Cutting and welding parts of the chassis isn't SM or SM2.

 

All IMHO.

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BMW 325. SM project.

Goodbye ESP, hello SM.

If you are going to buy wide wheels, buy wide tires and don't be a retard.

I think a split of SM into two classes would be beneficial. I think alot of people just don't want to spend the money on cars they might already have, to try and compete against 400hp awd and rwd cars.

 Something along these lines might be good (excuse the names, though it mostly would be true)

SM Cheap
ALL FWD cars.   (crx, civic, srt4, etc)   1600 lbs starting weight  +150lbs per liter displacement + 100lbs/liter for forced induction.
  (i.e. N/A 1.8 liter civic minimum would be 1870 lbs. N/A K24 civic would 1960 lbs .  1.6 liter turbo civic would be 2000 lbs. 2.4 liter turbo would be 2200lbs)
RWD cars 2.4 liters or less (this would allow the Nissan 240's, miatas, mr2's, all to race together) 1700lb starting weight +200lbs per liter displacement + 100lbs/liter for forced induction..
(i.e.  N/A 1.8 miata would be 2060 lbs.   Ubercharged 1.8 Miata would be 2240 lbs. turbo'd KA24 nissan 240sx would be 2420 lbs.

 Inner fenders should be allowed to be modified to fit larger tires(cutting, welding, etc).  NOTE: (no frame modifications or suspension mounting changes to facilitate tire fitment)
Additional measures to attain minimum weight are allowed and pertain to Removal of: Carpet, interior sound deadening, headliner, all interior trim panels, rear doorpanels/quarterpanel covers. any weight seats may be used but must be mounted to floor by minimum of 4 bolts.   NOTE: (Dash must remain an oem unit from that Manufacturer.  front door panels must be present.

Would bring out more cars that you actually see on the street. The ones that get placed into SM due to Turbo, fender flares, etc.  They'd be more competitive just running against civics and miatas. When they get demolished by Evo's and STI's they just don't come back to autox anymore. Plus more fwd owners would get into it.  civic/miata battles would be very fun. Plus i think some very cool FWD and light RWD cars would start to be seen.

SM Rich
ALL AWD Cars  

RWD cars above 2.4 liters  (i.e. M3's, sti's, evos, camaros) 

Not sure on minimum weights as i'm a SM Fwd'er.  but say same weight rules that currently are enforced.

 

hybridmoments:

Would bring out more cars that you actually see on the street. The ones that get placed into SM due to Turbo, fender flares, etc.  They'd be more competitive just running against civics and miatas. When they get demolished by Evo's and STI's they just don't come back to autox anymore. Plus more fwd owners would get into it.  civic/miata battles would be very fun. Plus i think some very cool FWD and light RWD cars would start to be seen.

 you do realize that currently CSP miatas are faster then BSP evos right (with BSP evos not far off of SM evos)? Nothing FWD stands a chance against a miata.

Marshall Grice:

hybridmoments:

Would bring out more cars that you actually see on the street. The ones that get placed into SM due to Turbo, fender flares, etc.  They'd be more competitive just running against civics and miatas. When they get demolished by Evo's and STI's they just don't come back to autox anymore. Plus more fwd owners would get into it.  civic/miata battles would be very fun. Plus i think some very cool FWD and light RWD cars would start to be seen.

 you do realize that currently CSP miatas are faster then BSP evos right (with BSP evos not far off of SM evos)? Nothing FWD stands a chance against a miata.

Not in SP they don't. But in SM I'd imagine that they are a little more equalized.

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Aut tace aut loquere meliora silentio.

maybe on the national level.  but then how many national competitors currently build a FWD car that can compete in SM? A few like Mr. Rodney.   With rule changes to make them more competitive, alot more may show up. And some other cars may come back from XP.      

So it's better for the FWD cars in SM  to loose to $50k+ AWD and RWD cars?  but throwing Miatas and civics together in a class is unfair? 
One thing that would be beneficial would to definitely have a cap of 275mm tire width in "SM Cheap".    Or some total Front to rear tire width max?  like 500mm.  so if a miata is running 275's in the rear, the most they could run in front would be 225's.  similar for FWD,  275 front, 225 rear.   i.e. Miata could run 245mm front, 255mm rear.  of course this would give a slight advantage to FWD because most aren't going to run any larger then 225mm in the rear.

The Forced Induction adder should be a multiplier. The weight gain on a 2L is huge compared to what it is for a 5L. This seems to be one of the most discussed changes. Everyone out here thought it was a multiplier until recently. 

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I may be a novice but I'm a novice with Hoosiers and a Turbo.

logrmyk:

The Forced Induction adder should be a multiplier. The weight gain on a 2L is huge compared to what it is for a 5L. This seems to be one of the most discussed changes. Everyone out here thought it was a multiplier until recently. 

Say you're making a conservative 450whp on your built 5L NA motor. How much faster are you going to be around an autox course when you put a blower on it and make 800whp?

Adding FI to a 2L makes a car faster around an autox course. Adding FI to a 5L probably does nothing but make it harder to drive around an autox course. If this was a drag race or even road race it would be a different story. The incremental speed around an autox course by adding power to a car over 450whp is negligible.

Also remember, when comparing a X-liter NA motor to an X-liter FI motor, you have to assume both the NA and FI motors are built to the limit of the rules. Just because a 20-year old 5.0L NA motor makes 250whp stock, doesn't make that the benchmark.

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Randy Noll

I do think a SMS class would prove pretty popular.  There are a lot of average joes who fall into SM and end up only coming to one event because their integra with cams couldn't hang with the evo's on r-comps.  There are tons of car nuts with turbo'd fwd cars etc that just don't autox because they know they will get slaughtered. 

This class has just too large a range in it right now....I would love to fit into a street tire class but I'm not about to yank my cams to fit in STU.

I'm all for breaking SM down some. FWD cars should have their own class. Me in my SRT-4 have banging races with Civics on a local level but if a Andy Leiber (sp?) type EVO shows up none of us are even close. Just feels like I'm at a gun fight with a sharp stick. At our last NWOR event we had 128 cars enter and we had 18 SM cars. Nothing wrong with big classes but I think we can break it down alittle and still have strong numbers.   

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2005 Neon SRT-4 ACR White. #6 SM
Fresh of the dealer lot 2008 Solstice GXP #6 AS

The whole idea of a street tire version of SM at Nats is VERY interesting. Looking at things on a Regional level, in the Detroit region they run a class called TSM. Basically is it SM with a tire restriction of 140 treadwear or higher. It is consistently one of the largest classes. Out of a regular 200 entrants it is not uncommon to see 20 cars in TSM. As I was "coming up through the ranks" and first getting into autocross, this was MY class. I had a modified street car that I wanted to race and this was the best place to do so. There was great camraderie (sp?) and absolutely wonderful battles between FF, FR, and AWD cars alike. I won many of the events with my EVO on 275 Azenis, but I specifically remember one event where I got smoked by a great driver in a pretty stock Neon SRT-4 on stock tires. It was a humbling experience that make me realize that a fat tired EVO was not necessarily the fastest thing in the world.  

As I got more into AX I started paying more attention to the rules and building my car around said rules to make it a somewhat competitive car on the national scene. It was a logical progression because I aspired to do more than the local events. There are many others who could not follow this progression due to the cost and hassel involved in buying race tires and wheels and swapping them onto the car every event. These folks may have come to Nationals if they could run in the same trim they do at local events and feel like they had a shot at not being at the tail end of the pack.

I bet there are other regions out there that run some sort of Street Tire Street Mod class? If so, let us hear how the class is doing in your region with regards to participation and competition.

Jarrod, SM #78

EVOlutionary:

The whole idea of a street tire version of SM at Nats is VERY interesting.

Would you run it?

By the time you put that much money into a race car, do you really want to compete NATIONALLY in it on street tires? It's a great class to have regionally for exactly the reason you state. With the cost and lifespan of ST tires both going in the wrong direction, I don't see any draw for national competitors.

These things only work regionally for exactly the reasons you state--different combinations of prep and driver skill can sometimes make for very close racing. At the national level, at the top, you get neither. Cars are prepped and drivers can drive.

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Randy Noll

Ahh, good points Randy. I didn't really think about it from that perspective.

Other than an Evo or a STi, would SM Street Tire even make sense?   Most cars wouldn't be able to put any power down with street tires.   Not to mention, R Tires are cheaper than top flight street tires.   Like Randy, I don't see this as a viable national class.   We do have a Street Tire class for SM locally (mixed in by PAX with a few other classes).

The biggest problem I see with the SM Street Tire class is furthering the cap between the small cars and larger cars. An EVO, STI, RX7, Corvette etc can all find very high end street tires to run in such a class due to the high availability of 17" & 18" tires, however most of the small cars, Miatas, Civics, MR2s etc wouldn't be able to squeeze more than 225 in most instances. I hate that it's going to cost me $2500 to get into a good rim with the 275 A6's, but that tire really is a god send for those of us with unreasonable dreams of competing with a smaller car. I wouldn't run in that class for that reason.

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Logan Murray
SM2 NA Miata

We have a street tire class at 2 clubs that I run with. SM cars never run in it. Mostly stock or the occasional SP car. I just don't see it working. Now doing something to even things up with the AWD cars makes sense. I just don't like the adder. Running a bigger engine and therefore boost doesn't help me that much, just doesn't cut it. A 2L in a 2500 lb car is still limited by Torque and turning up the boost does not make up for 300WTQ from an idle. A multiplier makes more sense. Sure there is a point where boost doen't help anymore but if that's what someone wants to build, do it.

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I may be a novice but I'm a novice with Hoosiers and a Turbo.

For selfish reasons (as in I've spent alot of $$$ and time getting car to minimum of 2680 pounds with current rules for a 3 liter FI), I'd rather the weights be left alone.

The one mod left that I'd really, really, really like is a steering quickener--already have a 12 inch steering wheel and power steering.  The OEM ratio is just too slow.  Current rules allow the quickener, but with no mods to steering shaft within the passenger compartment.  There is not enough room between firewall and steering rack for a quickener.

Is this rule for safety?  I've wondered whether it would be legal for me to add the quickener to the existing steering shaft, and attach steering wheel onto the quickener.  My car has the typical "Italian driving position" and is an '87 without airbags. 

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Bill Sims 1987 Alfa Romeo Milano 3.0
SM #53, Delta Region

Bill-Sims:

  

Is this rule for safety?  I've wondered whether it would be legal for me to add the quickener to the existing steering shaft, and attach steering wheel onto the quickener.  My car has the typical "Italian driving position" and is an '87 without airbags. 

 

As far as I recall, it is a safety concern. It prevents any possible changes to the collapsible nature of the OEM column.