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Interesting, get rid of SM & SM2 and have SM and SM Lite, I like that idea 1.9L limit, maybe a 2.0L limit would be more appropriate, you would really need to see what cars out there could fit under a 2.0L limit. You would split the Miata and MX-5 into different classes at 1.9L, maybe that's better though, a well modified MX-5 would own 2.0L & Under class with its tire and HP capabilities, although then it might not be enought to be competitive with Vettes and Evos.

 I really like this idea though, it would give the mass of already modified Honda's and Miatas a place to run and be competitive, let the MR2s and Elises (with weight) run here as well. Modified Sentras, CA18T 240SXs, there could be quite a few cars that could fit in here....CA18T 240SX...big tires...would be deadly. It would just need some work on the FI/NA weight adder to even things out,  but sounds good in theory so far....could really boost attendance at all levels as well.  

if you limit it to 2.0, then 02-05 Subaru Wrx's would be allowed since they came with 2.0l motors.

pacobeagle1:

if you limit it to 2.0, then 02-05 Subaru Wrx's would be allowed since they came with 2.0l motors.

     

 And EVOs....what was I thinking. 1.9L makes perfect sense :^)

Father LeadFoot:

 And EVOs....what was I thinking. 1.9L makes perfect sense :^)

doesn't matter, since we are basing on weight, evo will never get down under 2400 within the sm ruleset. i never thought of elise, but i am sure we could figure out something. we would have to, that would be a class killer right there.

You guys realize you could put a 1.9L into any chassis right? Unlike ST, you can't eliminate cars from your party by limiting engine size. Destroking any 2.0L to a 1.9L would be no harder than swapping a crankshaft and rods.

I'm having a hard time understanding what this SM Lite looks like. Is the assumption that these sub-2.0L, sub-2400# cars are going to be slower than SM?

rnoll98:

I'm having a hard time understanding what this SM Lite looks like. Is the assumption that these sub-2.0L, sub-2400# cars are going to be slower than SM?

 simply, i am sure the field would be mostly comprised of miata's & civics, but most of the fwd rejects from SM, a paired down 240, startlets, datsuns etc would show up. basically all the cars that get killed in SM and annilated in SM2.

rnoll98:

You guys realize you could put a 1.9L into any chassis right? Unlike ST, you can't eliminate cars from your party by limiting engine size. Destroking any 2.0L to a 1.9L would be no harder than swapping a crankshaft and rods.

I'm having a hard time understanding what this SM Lite looks like. Is the assumption that these sub-2.0L, sub-2400# cars are going to be slower than SM?

 Right there are a lot of cars that you could destroke a 2.0L to 1.9L and be very competitive....A MX5 and maybe a 240z. But that is where the minimum weight gets a lot of cars, STIs, EVOs, RX7s, Soltice, Sky, wouldn't be able to get down to that weight. I think this class would still be slower than SM due to tire height issues, take my miata, while I think I could get 340whp out of it with my current SC, after about 280whp traction is the limiting factor. If the miata could run a 25" Diameter tire, then it wouldn't be a problem, but since we're pretty limited to 23" (due to inner fender clearence issues of taller tires) that extra HP won't get. Same problem for the Honda crowd and many other sport compacts...we're lucky that 275/35R15 came out at least. Perhaps I'm being a little narrow minded and not giving Aerodynamics enough credit, but its just seems to be that tires of the typically sub 2400lbs cars is what limits them the greatest. It wouldn't be hard to build a 1900 lbs 400whp Civic hatch....but it'd be worthless even on the 275s.

We should start a separate thread to discuss what this class would actually look like. The idea is rough still, but I think it could be a great way to boost attendance and perhaps even things out a little, it would be a lot of Civic Hatches and Miatas though. I really don't see why M3s, EVOs, STIs, Corvettes, RX7s etc shouldn't be classed together, size, weight, HP potential, Tire Options etc are all reasonably comparable. One problem I see with the SM Lite is what about the SRT4, Cobalt SS, Caliber, Mazdaspeed3, etc bigger cars with more displacement that will never see 2400lbs, but still would have not competitive in SM Lite, and especially not competitive in SM Heavy.

"It wouldn't be hard to build a 1900 lbs 400whp Civic hatch"

I don't agree with you there, I ran a D16 SOHC and came in at 1880 with steel wheels. You figure with light rims you should come in at 1840, maybe. To get 400whp you would need an H or K that would be 100lb more than the D. unless you’re allowed more modifications or make some custom trailing arms I can’t see that weight in a civic.

chris 

Sm civic Hatch

sm1.7d:

"It wouldn't be hard to build a 1900 lbs 400whp Civic hatch"

I don't agree with you there, I ran a D16 SOHC and came in at 1880 with steel wheels. You figure with light rims you should come in at 1840, maybe. To get 400whp you would need an H or K that would be 100lb more than the D. unless you’re allowed more modifications or make some custom trailing arms I can’t see that weight in a civic.

chris 

Sm civic Hatch

 Alright you caught me talking out of my league, make it a 2000lbs 400whp Civic Hatch. The point I was trying to make is that with a civic being limited to ~23"-24" tire as well would have a low threshold of useable HP than that of a heavier car with taller tires in 25"-27" arena.

Father LeadFoot:

Perhaps I'm being a little narrow minded and not giving Aerodynamics enough credit, but its just seems to be that tires of the typically sub 2400lbs cars is what limits them the greatest. It wouldn't be hard to build a 1900 lbs 400whp Civic hatch....but it'd be worthless even on the 275s.

Since a lot of the more popular small cars cannot effectively run the big tall 285 and wider tires...  why don't we just give a weight break on cars running 275 and narrower tires?

sm1.7d:

"It wouldn't be hard to build a 1900 lbs 400whp Civic hatch"

I don't agree with you there, I ran a D16 SOHC and came in at 1880 with steel wheels. You figure with light rims you should come in at 1840, maybe. To get 400whp you would need an H or K that would be 100lb more than the D. unless you’re allowed more modifications or make some custom trailing arms I can’t see that weight in a civic.

chris 

 

Sm civic Hatch

If an STS Civic can be <1970 lbs, and with SM allowances you can only find another 80 lbs to pull out... you're not trying.

129STS:

If an STS Civic can be <1970 lbs, and with SM allowances you can only find another 80 lbs to pull out... you're not trying.

not necessarily.... bigger motors weigh more. depends on what year too. my 94 civic weighs 2038, now 2050 with the new sp seat rule. the new car will be 1800, but that is a diff body style, ie a 89.

Rodney:

129STS:

If an STS Civic can be <1970 lbs, and with SM allowances you can only find another 80 lbs to pull out... you're not trying.

 

not necessarily.... bigger motors weigh more. depends on what year too. my 94 civic weighs 2038, now 2050 with the new sp seat rule. the new car will be 1800, but that is a diff body style, ie a 89.

The guy above was running the same motor.... D16.  Your '94 is overweight. :P  I've told you that before.  

129STS:

Rodney:

129STS:

If an STS Civic can be <1970 lbs, and with SM allowances you can only find another 80 lbs to pull out... you're not trying.

 

not necessarily.... bigger motors weigh more. depends on what year too. my 94 civic weighs 2038, now 2050 with the new sp seat rule. the new car will be 1800, but that is a diff body style, ie a 89.

The guy above was running the same motor.... D16.  Your '94 is overweight. :P  I've told you that before.  

I think he is about right for the year, 1840 EF weight + 75lb B16 + 100 lb for the newer body about 2015.   

Chris

129STS:

The guy above was running the same motor.... D16.  Your '94 is overweight. :P  I've told you that before.  

no way to get my car lighter without spending bukoo $ on custom ti.... and i have a B series motor, which is +/- 75lbs on a D series. hence the new project.

sm1.7d:

I think he is about right for the year, 1840 EF weight + 75lb B16 + 100 lb for the newer body about 2015.   

 

Chris

chris' math is darn near spot on.

anyway, to get this thread back on track.....

i agree with carpet removal, but i will have to disagree with swapping subframes and bumper removal for FMIC's. swapping subframes will be modifying the chassis, something our class had been against the whole time. also, if you are creative, you can fit that big FMIC with a lot of hacking/pounding of the original bumper. as long as you leave all the metal there, you are golden.  

129STS:

Father LeadFoot:

Perhaps I'm being a little narrow minded and not giving Aerodynamics enough credit, but its just seems to be that tires of the typically sub 2400lbs cars is what limits them the greatest. It wouldn't be hard to build a 1900 lbs 400whp Civic hatch....but it'd be worthless even on the 275s.

Since a lot of the more popular small cars cannot effectively run the big tall 285 and wider tires...  why don't we just give a weight break on cars running 275 and narrower tires?

That might be an easier approach since it seems to address head-on the limitation of the miatas and a lot of the fwd cars. Also might be easier to implement than completely restructuring the SM classes.

rnoll98:

That might be an easier approach since it seems to address head-on the limitation of the miatas and a lot of the fwd cars. Also might be easier to implement than completely restructuring the SM classes.

giving fwd weight breaks will not solve anything, as they are very low as it is. only a few select cars will get tot that number, namely early vw's and early civics. this doesn't solve the problem that they cannot  effectively put power down like an m3/rally car. notice daddio gave up on big power fwd? he gave up because no matter what the power level, he still could not get decent accel figures out of his neon. built the evo, and has another championship. his best finish was 4th. i have three 4ths and a 3rd from my car, which he has driven and told me handles better then his neon ever could.... 

Rodney:

rnoll98:

That might be an easier approach since it seems to address head-on the limitation of the miatas and a lot of the fwd cars. Also might be easier to implement than completely restructuring the SM classes.

 

giving fwd weight breaks will not solve anything, as they are very low as it is. only a few select cars will get tot that number, namely early vw's and early civics. this doesn't solve the problem that they cannot  effectively put power down like an m3/rally car. notice daddio gave up on big power fwd? he gave up because no matter what the power level, he still could not get decent accel figures out of his neon. built the evo, and has another championship. his best finish was 4th. i have three 4ths and a 3rd from my car, which he has driven and told me handles better then his neon ever could.... 

Given that it sounds like FWD cars are maxxed out no matter what the rules (they can't get lighter or effectively use more power), do you think putting an SM2 Miata in with the SM FWD cars per this "SM Lite" makes sense? It sounds like anything RWD would put power down much better than anything FWD.

Rodney:

rnoll98:

That might be an easier approach since it seems to address head-on the limitation of the miatas and a lot of the fwd cars. Also might be easier to implement than completely restructuring the SM classes.

 

giving fwd weight breaks will not solve anything, as they are very low as it is. only a few select cars will get tot that number, namely early vw's and early civics. this doesn't solve the problem that they cannot effectively put power down like an m3/rally car. notice daddio gave up on big power fwd? he gave up because no matter what the power level, he still could not get decent accel figures out of his neon. built the evo, and has another championship. his best finish was 4th. i have three 4ths and a 3rd from my car, which he has driven and told me handles better then his neon ever could....

I agree that not many FWD cars will be able to see the weight mins as they stand now.  Although the counter point is that early VW's and Civics ARE going to be the best FWD platforms.  It'd be awfully hard to make an Altima or Camry a competitive SM car.

I agree that you cannot put down power like the M3 and Rally cars, although lowering their weight allows them to see higher accel numbers with the same power.
 
Which brings the following conclusion:  Thinking about it again with those two points, how about a weight penalty for cars that can run the WIDE rubber.  Most of them have untouchable minimum weights right now.  Being that they are currently dominating the class, instead of trying to speed up the cars that can't put down power, let's slow down the cars that can.

Add 200 lb to min weight to cars that want to run 285 and wider rubber.  So you could still build Vic's M3 or Andy's RX7 to their level of prep.  The advantage would be that you can ballast them as needed back up to their new mins.
 

rnoll98:

Given that it sounds like FWD cars are maxxed out no matter what the rules (they can't get lighter or effectively use more power), do you think putting an SM2 Miata in with the SM FWD cars per this "SM Lite" makes sense? It sounds like anything RWD would put power down much better than anything FWD.

 well, in a perfect world we would segment SM into drivetrains, and have FWD SM etc... but, since the class is already segmented into 2 classes already, why not move the rules around to suit everyone? personally, i think a high hp miata is going to be tough to put the power down, hence a better match for the FWD competitors vs m3/rally car. on the flip side, i think a miata would rather run against me then a rx7/vette. so, basically you take the two backmarkers of SM and SM2, and put them together, and the winning cars of the classes and run them together. i have been around a while, and i am just making suggestions to make the class more competitive for most. the only people i can see that have a problem with this are the class winners.... why, you don't want any competition? 

129STS:

Add 200 lb to min weight to cars that w