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Steve Hoelscher:

He doesn't have to.  As protestor, you have to prove it doesn't.  And that is going to be tougher than you think.  Define a "mount" and then prove this isn't a mount.  It attaches the seat to the floor.  That's a "mount".  The rule says nothing about the "safety and security" of the mount(s).

A mount attaches the seat to the floor.  It does.  The rule doesn't define the type of mount or its function.  Only that the seat be securely mounted. 

Sorry Steve,,,you're off the map on this one.  Wouldn't say anything, but I feel like your calling me a dumb ass because I don't see any seat mount in that picture.

"Sandwich" plate is sandwiched between the seat and the body.  That plate is clearly not 'sandwiched".  "Mount" provides some mounting function.  The slack in the strap clearly indicates that it performs no mounting function.  Take a freakin' pole...show it to 100 people and ask them if it's mounting the seat.  Some things just "are" by inspection, no matter how much you want to pick at each letter of the rules.  To call this "tortured" interpretation is an understantement.

 I don't have an opinion on the rule or a dog in this fight....I'm just tired of inference that I'm a F'n idiot because of what I see.  It's already been ruled on.  (shrug)

stupid double post

47CP:

...are you telling me that every single structural part of the seat and track is welded together with no bolts?  Or, is the track assembly welded to the floor and the seat bolts to that?  Doesn't that then become the "standard body mounting hole/stud"   I think no rule will fix an issue with a car(s) that has welded in seat tracks....you picks your poison when you selects your car. :)

DaveW

A number of cars have seat tracks that attach with no bolts. I know that both a VW and a Fiat that I've had have the bottom half of the slider welded to the floor pan and the top half welded to the seat frame. No bolts or studs involved.

ReijoAS:

...Note that karts pull in excess of 2.0 g's in corners so I believe they are plenty sturdy enough for our use in that regard.

 A kart seat does not have a high back so there is danger if you slide backwards into a solid object and I can understand that concern. 

Now, thinking outside the "box", what do kart drivers do?  They travel much faster and with less protection around them than we do at solo events.  Why do they not have high-backed seats?

 The thought occurred to me that kart drivers are required to wear neck collars! 

Maybe this could have been a solution to the kart seats?  That is, requiring the wearing of neck collars for anyone driving with a kart seat (or how about anyone without a headrest - like early '60's or before cars which did not have one).

-snip-

What would happen if someone molded a "seat" into a car?  E.g. built up a kevlar or fibreglass maybe with foam molded into the space where a seat would go.....making it a part of the body?

 Have a good weekend!

 Reijo

Kart collars are strictly for comfort. They help the neck muscles support the head during cornering. They provide no safety purpose.

FWIW, I'm building a poured foam seat in my Prepared car. Maybe I'll throw a few studs in the stock seat bolt holes and put a head rest on the rollbar diagonal so it will also be SP legal shoule we see this rule creep into other classes.

47CP:

This isn't a smart ass question, but are you telling me that every single structural part of the seat and track is welded together with no bolts? 

Yep. 

In the X1/9, the track is welded directly to the floor.  The track on the seat is part of the seat frame structure and is welded into that structure.  At no point is anything "bolted" together.  There are no threaded fasteners that hold the seat to the tracks or the tracks to the chassis.

The above was clearly noted in the letter I sent to the SEB during the member input phase of the process. 

Steve Hoelscher:

47CP:

This isn't a smart ass question, but are you telling me that every single structural part of the seat and track is welded together with no bolts? 

Yep. 

In the X1/9, the track is welded directly to the floor.  The track on the seat is part of the seat frame structure and is welded into that structure.  At no point is anything "bolted" together.  There are no threaded fasteners that hold the seat to the tracks or the tracks to the chassis.

The above was clearly noted in the letter I sent to the SEB during the member input phase of the process. 

Yikes.  I wasn't aware of that.

I wasn't on the SEB last year, so I have no idea what was in your letter...

DaveW

Howdy,

Steve Hoelscher:

marka:

Show me another seat mount, anywhere in the history of cars, that's as flexible as that one is (when its not being adjusted).

Its not a mount Steve, no matter how much you say it is because you don't like the rule.

Again....(sigh).... I don't have to prove anything.  The burden is born by the protestor.  You have to prove its NOT part of the seat or mount.  It doesn't matter what my opinion of the rule is.  Note too: all seat mounts flex and as Rob noted, not everything to do with a mount has to be rigid.

Whatever Steve.  The sky is pink.  Its up to you to prove me wrong.

Using your (completely f*cked up) reading of the rule, harnesses are part of the seat mount too.

Mark

(related to the "cable that attaches to the slider is slack, is that ok?" question... Yes.  The cable is part of a mechanism that allows the seat mount to be adjusted.  When its slack, the seat is secure.  What function does the ballast plate and its strap serve as part of the "seat mount"?)

Steve, you missed the point. For the x1/9 you're reading the rule in the strictest sense. For Bill's car, you are reading it more liberally then is possible. So, which reading is it? You can't use both as reasons the rule should be retracted as they contradict each other. If I took your interpretation in Bill's situation and applied it to the x1/9, wouldn't the chassis also be part of the seat? You welded the brackets to the chassis, now just call the chassis the bracket too.

I was not inferring anything Steve, merely asking a question. You're a smart guy but it seems you've missed the forest for the trees on this one. Your position seems to be one of simply not liking the rule and trying to come up with some way to show just how terrible it is. Your best argument is the unique situation of an x1/9 or older vw, not how some ambiguity to the rule makes it easy to meet the letter but rape and pillage the intent. The x1/9 and vw situation can easily be handled with a minor clarification.

marka:

(related to the "cable that attaches to the slider is slack, is that ok?" question... Yes.  The cable is part of a mechanism that allows the seat mount to be adjusted.  When its slack, the seat is secure.  What function does the ballast plate and its strap serve as part of the "seat mount"?)

Well, picture for a second that the strap was tight or even if the strap was a solid bar.  Wouldn't that increase the stiffness of the mount (much like a strut tower brace) and would therefore be part of the mounting hardware there to prevent metal fatigue?  Then the plate becomes part of the mounting hardware as a mounting plate against the sheetmetal of the floor.

So given that, wouldn't the plate be part of the mounting hardware?  So when there is slack in the attachment mechanism, it's allowing some flex - just like the slider cable, it can have some slack and still function. 
 

Oh, heck why not just call a spade a spade?

 The new rule requires 20 lbs. for a seat......use whatever seat and then add ballast if you need to in order to get to 20 lbs. 

 If you bolt a steel barbell plate underneath the car through a seat mounting bolt, what is it?  Ballast.  Might be kinda dumb or whatever....but so what.  The car gains a few pounds.....take a sh*t before running.

 Reijo

so you not only have to meet the weight restriction, now you guys are complaining that the weight isn't in the right spot?  Come on.  No where in that rule does it say where the weight can be.  It only says it has to be part of the seat or mount.  it's the bolt holding it to the bracket that has you guys all upset?  he could have just as easily welded that piece of strap to the mount...what's the difference?  oh wait I get it.  It's not FAIR that his seat has a lower CG?

Are we going to start measuring the CG of the seats and specifying limits on those too?    For christs sake just remove the weight restriction already and be done with it.

Marshall Grice:

so you not only have to meet the weight restriction, now you guys are complaining that the weight isn't in the right spot?  Come on.  No where in that rule does it say where the weight can be.  It only says it has to be part of the seat or mount.  it's the bolt holding it to the bracket that has you guys all upset?  he could have just as easily welded that piece of strap to the mount...what's the difference?  oh wait I get it.  It's not FAIR that his seat has a lower CG?

Are we going to start measuring the CG of the seats and specifying limits on those too?    For christs sake just remove the weight restriction already and be done with it.

So, you think it is perfectly fine if I spend $$$$$$texas and design/build a seat that weighs 5lbs and then run a wire from that seat to the right rear trunk area where I've mounted my "seat ballast"? If I did that with both front seats, you don't think moving 30lbs over the inside rear doesn't equate a huge performance advantage? You can't just twist the crap out of a rule to then say "See!?! If I torture the interpretation of this rule enough, it makes NO SENSE! Therefore, I say we change the rule!".

I've got an idea. For christ's sake, just ballast your seat up in a manner that is clearly acceptable and stop trying to "beat" the rule to "prove" the rule should be changed. It isn't that hard. Especially for guys that are such good engineers that they can safely mount a seat in there car with only 5lbs of material including the seat. Problem solved!

Step back for a moment. Say you're talking to Joe-racer on the street who runs with NASA or whatever. Run this line by him: 

solo-x:

For christ's sake, just ballast your seat up in a manner that is clearly acceptable

How many minutes do you think he'll be laughing for?

rnoll98:

Step back for a moment. Say you're talking to Joe-racer on the street who runs with NASA or whatever. Run this line by him: 

solo-x:

For christ's sake, just ballast your seat up in a manner that is clearly acceptable

How many minutes do you think he'll be laughing for?

Yeah, that's exactly what I'd say to a potential new SCCA member.

Anyway, I've invested too much time in to this pissing match/*** fest. I'm done. Remember to write your letters!

Howdy,

SpyderVenom:

marka:

(related to the "cable that attaches to the slider is slack, is that ok?" question... Yes.  The cable is part of a mechanism that allows the seat mount to be adjusted.  When its slack, the seat is secure.  What function does the ballast plate and its strap serve as part of the "seat mount"?)

Well, picture for a second that the strap was tight or even if the strap was a solid bar.  Wouldn't that increase the stiffness of the mount (much like a strut tower brace) and would therefore be part of the mounting hardware there to prevent metal fatigue?  Then the plate becomes part of the mounting hardware as a mounting plate against the sheetmetal of the floor.

So given that, wouldn't the plate be part of the mounting hardware?  So when there is slack in the attachment mechanism, it's allowing some flex - just like the slider cable, it can have some slack and still function. 
 

Whatever dude.

See you in the protest shed.

Mark

SpyderVenom:

Well, picture for a second that the strap was tight or even if the strap was a solid bar.  Wouldn't that increase the stiffness of the mount (much like a strut tower brace) and would therefore be part of the mounting hardware there to prevent metal fatigue?   

But that's not what he did, is it?  Add a few heavy stabilizing strut bars, not flexible wire or straps, and you have something that's remotely viable.  Pictured as is, and someone telling me that's a seat mount is just a load of crap. 

Welded in sliders with zero bolt holes/studs? HHhmm, let's see I have to use the factory bolt/studs. I have 0 bolts and 0 studs. 0x0, carry the zero, yep = 0.

So you're off to the protest shed. Protestor: "he didn't use the factorybolts/studs" Protestee: "I used every bolt/stud avaliable from the factory"  PC "the car came with zero bolts and zero studs... the race seat installation included zero bolts and zero studs, 0x0=0, protest denied, fee witheld"

EWCMR2:

So you're off to the protest shed. Protestor: "he didn't use the factorybolts/studs" Protestee: "I used every bolt/stud avaliable from the factory"  PC "the car came with zero bolts and zero studs... the race seat installation included zero bolts and zero studs, 0x0=0, protest denied, fee witheld"

The tricky part will be getting the seat out of the car to weigh it. Guess the protest shed will have to keep a torch handy.   

For some reason, the slide rail seat mount is real perplexing.  (Seemingly because the almightly word "bolts" appears in the rules.)  I ran an STS A2 Golf, so I'm a little familiar with you're talking about.  As an engineer, I'm going to go ahead and assume that the factory engineers went to school and studied some, and the most ecomical and the best engineering solution *might* just be to re-use the slide rail components in my new seat mount assembly.  Oh, yeah...it's nice to know that I'm not paying a weight penalty for doing it this way, 'cuz crap....I'm still 3 pounds under.  Maybe, since I have to add weight anyway, I'll add some cross rod stiffeners just to firm the whole thing up a little, can tack a ballast bar to the frame if need that last pound..  Hey, I can slide my seat back and forth too....cool! 

(Don't know X-19's.  Maybe there some super freaky alien seat mount that makes all this impossible...don't know.  Just trying to make a point.)

 EDIT:  OK...I'll cave in and agree that the rule should be modified to read "using factory bolts/studs, or slide rails...."  There.

Patrick Washburn:

 EDIT:  OK...I'll cave in and agree that the rule should be modified to read "using factory bolts/studs, or slide rails...."  There.

 since the slide rails are weighed as part of the seat, I'm thinking my VW seat will weigh in about 1900 lbs, give or take 150 lbs.