SCCAForums.com

Pic. #3: as seen from the side.

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Bill Schenker
CalClub & S.D.R. #14 CSP 10AE Miata

And finally, #4: the flyswatter seat in it's full glory.

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Bill Schenker
CalClub & S.D.R. #14 CSP 10AE Miata

Bill, you _honestly_ believe that if your "attached" ballast is legal that I couldn't do the exact same thing but put my ballast in my trunk and just run a wire to the seat? Come on. Protest well founded. Papers should have been thrown even if your strap hadn't broken. What is so friggin difficult with some wheel weights stuck to the bottom? Same goal accomplished, doesn't make you protest bait. This is the same crap I saw in ST that I hoped to get away from by switching to a more "mature" class. Boy have my eyes been opened. Don't be surprised if the new writing of the rule makes it so stick on weights stuck directly to the seat won't cut it and you actually have to mold the weight into the carbon fiber! Look at what happened with fender liners, cats, and emissions in ST when people wanted "clarifications" or when they stretched the intent of the rule past the breaking point.

Nate - Voltronian that is severely jaded 

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Nate Whipple
NER
188/88 DSP ITR

solo-x:

Bill, you _honestly_ believe that if your "attached" ballast is legal that I couldn't do the exact same thing but put my ballast in my trunk and just run a wire to the seat?
 
You could, but then it would be NOTHING like what I did 

 Come on. Protest well founded. Papers should have been thrown even if your strap hadn't broken.

What is so friggin difficult with some wheel weights stuck to the bottom?

Nothing; and that's what I'm doing now, thanks to Scott F. suggesting it.  I didn't think of it before, "solo-x" (whoever you are); is that so "friggin" hard to understand?  The weight is next to the seat, nearly touching it.  It's bolted securely to the floorboard w/grade 8.  How in the hell is that against the intent of the rule?  I built a sturdy mount using pig iron, but since I don't use sliders, what the hell else was I supposed to do to get my 17lbs. 7oz. seat & mount to meet the rule (and remember, I hadn't thought of the wheel weight thing)?!?!?!?

Same goal accomplished, doesn't make you protest bait. This is the same crap I saw in ST that I hoped to get away from by switching to a more "mature" class. Boy have my eyes been opened. Don't be surprised if the new writing of the rule makes it so stick on weights stuck directly to the seat won't cut it and you actually have to mold the weight into the carbon fiber! Look at what happened with fender liners, cats, and emissions in ST when people wanted "clarifications" or when they stretched the intent of the rule past the breaking point.

Nate - Voltronian that is severely jaded 

Oh, and why didn't I just bolt the ballast TO the seat?  A, because it isn't my seat and I didn't want to put a hole in it, and B, because a hole in the seat could potentially compromise the integrity of the seat's structure, and we ARE trying to have "safer" seats, right? 

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Bill Schenker
CalClub & S.D.R. #14 CSP 10AE Miata

After seeing the install I completely understand the protest, and I agree with it.  Could it have be handled differently, for sure, like informing you that it needs to be fixed by the next day of competition (assuming it was protested on day 1).  Not much difference from your install to the "wire to the ballast" example made here several times.  I'm not sure how you don't see these as similar.

If you didn't want to cut a hole in the seat I would say you could have fastened the weight to the seat mount, that is what I would have done... maybe you couldn't do it on one solid piece like that, but I'm sure you could do the same with a couple smaller pieces.

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Jason Frank
Bridgestone / datatoys.com / Redshift Motorsports STS Civic Si

TeamUndercoatRacing.com

Mugenlude:

After seeing the install I completely understand the protest, and I agree with it.  Could it have be handled differently, for sure, like informing you that it needs to be fixed by the next day of competition (assuming it was protested on day 1).  Not much difference from your install to the "wire to the ballast" example made here several times.  I'm not sure how you don't see these as similar.

This is beyond silly.  The piece attached to the seat is a "bracket", the piece bolted to the floor is a "sandwich plate".  So you guys are now going to determine the intent of a bracket and how its mounted? 

It appears that you are upset about the fact that the weight is bolted to the floor and not the seat.  The difference in location is measure in fractions of and inch.  Anybody that thinks this setup is worthy of protest because the weight wasn't bolted directly to the seat less than half an inch away, look really foolish.

Anybody that knows anything about the protest process knows that the protest committee cannot find the intent of the rule, they can only find the letter of the rule.  Since the seat rule doesn't define where the seat and/or its mounts begin and/or end, Bill's seat and mount are legal.  Regardless of intent.

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
2006 DP National Champion
'98, '99, '00, '02 DSP National Champion
http://www.terriehoward.com

Andy Hollis:

Patrick Lipsinic:

The light weight seat I ran last year was 5 lbs with the braket which I made myself. The seat cost almost nothing. From an old MG made of fiberglass with leather cover.

Sounds like a very safe seat.  If its good enough for an old MG, it must easily meet today's standards for safety, right? <sarcasm off>

You have demonstrated the poster child for what the rule hoped to do away with.  Curious, what do you use now, Pat?

--Andy
 

 

LOL, well I fit in it and I have passagers ride in it during local events. I used the stock belt latch with it. It's a pretty solid seat.

Good thing I didn't sell my spare Cobra Monaco. That is now my passager seat. I need to weigh it with the braket to see where it is exactly.

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Patrick Lipsinic
Tulsa, OK
RE NEOKLA Region
DSP# 95
HotSubarus.com
ZzyzxMotorsports.com
Kartboy.com

Andy Hollis:

During that six years, more and more of these things started to show up.  And not just kart seats, but other crappy seats and even decent seats with lousy homemade aluminum mountings.  As National competitors installed them, regional guys imitated, usually with less quality.

Andy, I always found this troubling.   Do you not see that the reason "more of these things started to show up" was because they were following your example?  Your Miata may very well have been one of the most visible SP cars at the time.  You are/were, in some circles , a respected national competitor and a member (at the time) of the SEB.  Aspiring competitors follow your example.  If Andy Hollis does it, that must be the way its done. 

If this was an issue you wanted addressed I don't understand why you didn't lead by example and use a proper seat/mount.  You could then point out to those who weren't safe that they should improve their equipment. 

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
2006 DP National Champion
'98, '99, '00, '02 DSP National Champion
http://www.terriehoward.com

Steve Hoelscher:

This is beyond silly.  The piece attached to the seat is a "bracket", the piece bolted to the floor is a "sandwich plate".  So you guys are now going to determine the intent of a bracket and how its mounted?

Is this serious, or are you just trying to get someone to say something you want to hear for your 'debate'?

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Jason Frank
Bridgestone / datatoys.com / Redshift Motorsports STS Civic Si

TeamUndercoatRacing.com

Your right Steve, this is beyond silly. When you start putting your justifications inside quotations you already know you're stretching the interpretation.

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Nate Whipple
NER
188/88 DSP ITR

Mugenlude:

Is this serious, or are you just trying to get someone to say something you want to hear for your 'debate'?

 

Yes, I am serious.  You really don't see this?  You're kidding right?  Explain to me how its not a mounting bracket and sandwich plate. It attaches the seat to the floor of the car doesn't it?  And to be safe, just like when mounting a roll bar or harness, you need a sandwich plate to distribute the load so the mounting bolt doesn't pull through the sheet metal.  The rule allows additional mounting points right?  So how is this illegal?

Sorry that you don't like it but it meets the letter of the rule and that's all that is required.  I told you before there were any number of ways to defeat this rule.  This is just the most obvious.

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
2006 DP National Champion
'98, '99, '00, '02 DSP National Champion
http://www.terriehoward.com

Steve Hoelscher:

 

Yes, I am serious.  You really don't see this?  You're kidding right?  Explain to me how its not a mounting bracket and sandwich plate. It attaches the seat to the floor of the car doesn't it?  And to be safe, just like when mounting a roll bar or harness, you need a sandwich plate to distribute the load so the mounting bolt doesn't pull through the sheet metal.  The rule allows additional mounting points right?  So how is this illegal?

Sorry that you don't like it but it meets the letter of the rule and that's all that is required.  I told you before there were any number of ways to defeat this rule.  This is just the most obvious.

So in your eyes it's OK to run this 'sandwich plate' to the trunk area and have the 'mount' in the trunk?

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Jason Frank
Bridgestone / datatoys.com / Redshift Motorsports STS Civic Si

TeamUndercoatRacing.com

"So in your eyes it's OK to run this 'sandwich plate' to the trunk area and have the 'mount' in the trunk?"

 

Who the h*ll is mounting it in the trunk?  Not I!  It's like an 1/8" from the seat.  Man. 

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Bill Schenker
CalClub & S.D.R. #14 CSP 10AE Miata

Steve Hoelscher:

Andy, I always found this troubling.   Do you not see that the reason "more of these things started to show up" was because they were following your example?  Your Miata may very well have been one of the most visible SP cars at the time.  You are/were, in some circles , a respected national competitor and a member (at the time) of the SEB.  Aspiring competitors follow your example.  If Andy Hollis does it, that must be the way its done. 

If this was an issue you wanted addressed I don't understand why you didn't lead by example and use a proper seat/mount.  You could then point out to those who weren't safe that they should improve their equipment. 

You give me too much credit, Steve.  Either that, or another clever debate trick.

While I may have started a trend on kart seats, I was by no means the first to use a half-high bucket.  Plenty of those already out there.  I used a kart seat because it fit me better.  My driver's seat was actually mounted quite well, using carefully modified stock sliders and appropriate supports.  It wasn't even all that light (12 lbs with sliders).  The big safety issue was the seat back height.  Now, the passenger seat was stupid (four bolts drilled into the floorboards), but I didn't use it other than to take up space and meet the rules.

I actually think my personal experience driving the thing helped me understand why it was a bad idea.  I did it for two years and then put the car on jackstands.  Some people learn things by pondering, others by doing.  The latter worked for me here.

--Andy 

PS: As for your other comments on ease of "defeating" the rule, I'll say it again, " We cannot legislate stupidity, but we can remove the incentive/advantage". 

actor:

"So in your eyes it's OK to run this 'sandwich plate' to the trunk area and have the 'mount' in the trunk?"

 

Who the h*ll is mounting it in the trunk?  Not I!  It's like an 1/8" from the seat.  Man. 

If you read through this thread you'll see the reference to using a wire (ie. your 'bracket") being used to relocate the extra weight (ie. your addition weight block) and mounting it in the trunk.  Your installation is very similar, you just didn't extend it that far, you decided to mount it closer.  If your 'seat mount' is allowed what stops something from extending the wire farther away.

Your ballast is mounted to the floor, then some unless piece of material happens to be attached to a bolt which holds down your seat.  That doesn't exactly seem like part of a seat mount to me.

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Jason Frank
Bridgestone / datatoys.com / Redshift Motorsports STS Civic Si

TeamUndercoatRacing.com

Andy Hollis:

While I may have started a trend on kart seats, I was by no means the first to use a half-high bucket. 

I am well aware of that.  I remember Grady Wood's "Barbie Vette" passenger seat, held in place by one sheet metal screw.  Bill Condrashoff had kart seats in his DSP X1/9 in the early/mid 90s so I know you weren't the first, but you are as well traveled as anybody in the sport.  You attend lots of national events and Evo Schools, lots of people saw that car and those seats.  

I am kind of suprized that you didn't realize the issue with seat back height until you had driven the car a few years.  The first time I saw a kart seat in Bill's car I knew I wasn't going to drive it that way. 

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
2006 DP National Champion
'98, '99, '00, '02 DSP National Champion
http://www.terriehoward.com

Howdy,

Bill, thanks for being willing to post pictures of the "seat mount".

I don't think its appropriate for you to be calling someone names who protested you on that.  As you can see from some of the posts here (actually, all of them as I recall, except for Steve H., who its clear would agree the sky is polka-dotted if it meant he got to bash the seat rule. :-), plenty of other folks seem to think the mount, while possibly meeting the letter of the rule, certainly skirts the intent.

I happen to agree with them, but also have a lot of respect to the letter of the rule.  To me, I think the obvious question with regards to your ballast is whether you can legitimately call it a seat or a seat mount.  I think any rational person would look at it and decide it is neither of those things.  They would also look at the position, and note that its mounted further back than the seat, and wonder why that would be.  Could you be using a tortured interpretation of the rule to gain an advantage?

That extra "mounting point" doesn't add any security to the seat (3.3.3.b.2) whatsoever.  Its not a seat or a viable seat mount.  As such, its not part of the seat/mount and shouldn't be included in the seat/mount's weight.

Anyway, if you really went to a national event with that mount and _didn't_ at least suspect you might be protested, I think you were in denial.  I'd have protested you.  I'd have talked to you about my concerns first, and explained that I was protesting you to get a clarification of the rule more than anything else, along with offering you a chance to redo the mount instead if you'd rather.

But those would have been the options, and that would have been me trying to be nice about it.

Mark

That's pretty much what I thought would happen, nothing. Nobody can come up with anything better than what's in the book now. Looks like people don't really care what the rule is and just want to have something to whine & cry about...

Eric

 

EWCMR2:

That's pretty much what I thought would happen, nothing. Nobody can come up with anything better than what's in the book now. Looks like people don't really care what the rule is and just want to have something to whine & cry about...

Eric

Just because it doesn't happen here, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Lucky for us, sccaforums isn't the center of the universe, tho it feels that way sometimes. Letters have been written, discussions have been had, and there actually have been some good alternatives suggested, even in this thread.

Unfortunately, I think the rule that's going to work is going to require either (1) a more developed Tech program which it sounds like is under way, or (2) for the SCCA to man-up and actually give hardware specifications. As an interim, and as I've suggested, lowering the weight to 10 or 15# ASAP will help keep folks from feeling the need to "trade-in" again when a better rule is put in place . The mount verbage still helps, the seatback verbage still helps. At 10 or 15# the rule is still a step in the right direction, but is delivered without the penalty and insult the first one carried to those who have taken the care to safely mount a sub-20# seat.

Either way, I'd also suggest that the SEB issue a public service announcement that actually EDUCATES the membership. It seems nobody thought about the possibility that some members might not understand how unsafe their mounts are. So we sling 20# out there and now all of a sudden Joe Sixpack has an ME degree? Unfortunately Joe doesn't visit these boards and wasn't in the conf call where this was debated, so all he sees is that he has to strap some weight to his seat, since he assumes the reputable speed shop that built his custom mount knew what they were doing. Something simple like 1/8" steel, 3/16" AL, 3/8" grade 5 bolts, 4" backing plates, and taking it to a certified welder, or something along those lines might go a long way to improve safety (I'm no engineer, so someone smarter than me can insert the right values). One of the things we as an organization consistently do is create legislation without education.

By the way, Bill is a poster child of how the rule would still work well if the min was 10 or 15#. It made him replace the kart seat with a "real" seat with a high back that is securely mounted to the car at the proper location. Success! Yet here we are talking about the meaningless piece of steel bolted to his floorboard, completely missing the fact that with our without the ballast, we may have saved Bill's life.

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Randy Noll