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jzr:

Re: allowing OE tires, more and more are coming with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups from the factory. 

Curious, can you name names?

Are these ST-legal cars? 

--Andy 

Andy Hollis:

And finally, since you asked here's the UTQG treadwear info ..  Test loop isn't all that far from where I live.

 

From TireRack:

When looking at UTQG ratings it is important to realize that the Department of Transportation does not conduct the tests. The grades are assigned by the tire manufacturers based on their test results or those conducted by an independent testing company they have hired.

 

Seems to me that treadwear discussions are pointless.  Tire manufacturers slap whatever treadwear they desire on their tires.  Comparing numbers between manufacturers is apples to oranges.
 

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-Travis Finlay
1997 Saturn SC2
2002 Subaru 2.5RS
1995 YZF 600R

Andy Hollis:

Holy misinformation, Batman!

Any P & M person worth their salt would be using a Hoosier wet (DOT-R or race tire) waaay before using an ST-legal tire.  You are exagerating way too much here.

I started in 1978, and I seem to recall the top tires of the day as being awfully expensive on a relative basis (Pirelli P7).  Cost escalation in Solo has more do to with popularity of the sport (tip of the pyramid is higher when the base is bigger) than it does with tire costs.  The sharing of information over the Internet has only made it clearer what the top dogs are doing, so others either spend to keep up, or complain.

--Andy

Perhaps some dramatic exageration, yes. But not completely. Oh, and salt is a no-no now a days. Bad for ya. They don't even hand out the salt tablets anymore when working track events :)

And the P7 was not really all that great, but yes they were $$$$. Many that I know of (myself included) used the P6. Now as it was soooo many years ago, I don't remember if the Pheonix Stahlflex 3011 was before, or after that time. But I used those too. I think those may have been one of the first tires that began to be shaved too.

Personally, I would love to see an all SPEC A008 class. I miss those tires so much :)

I still see autox as the most grassroots and the most communal form of racing. There is very little, besides rulesets, to distinguish one profile class, from another, and its very interesting to compare one's theoretical performance to another. You CAN NOT do that with any other form of motorsports. These tires, as well as any other legal advantage, whether you want to run them or not, set a bench mark that one can see how fast it is possible to drive around a course, based on that prep level. That is good to know, it is a data point. It's also good to know that if one wants to just drive, they can. Not everyone autocrosses to win. But like Andy has said, if there is an advantage for a tire to be at 1/32, he will show up at every event with 1/32 tires. Many others will also do that. How many people show up at tours with brand new tires? Nobody nor no rule says you can't do that.

 It still remains to be seen whether these tires are class killer tires. I don't think they will work well at all on heavy cars; they just don't have the construction to facilitate it. As far as cost's go,  No body complained that certain size bstones cost more than others, but they are on several competitors cars, in several ST classes. Should we outlaw the guy with 17s in ST because his tires cost $200 each? As far as a perceived inaccuracy for the tread wear rating, no body has written a letter to make sumitomo 140 tw tires banned; they fall apart before you even make it to the event site. It's unfortunate that the Toyo tire is relatively fast, and wears poorly, but that is no reason to ban the tires.

 
If the STAC and teh SEB is concerned about manufacturers blurring the lines between R-Comps and street tires, the easiest, enforceable, measurable data that can be implemented at an event, is the tread depth rule. The rule book is very clear about the amount of tread that a tire must have for it to be legal. The B-stones, fortunately have two circumferential grooves that allow you to run until the tread is non-existent: the grooves provide a measurable tread depth that is atleast 2/32. The toyos, on the other hand, did not build into their tread pattern, a heirarchy of tread depth, and one does not get to make a street legal slick, based on the current rules as written. The tire has another Catch 22 in its construction: the more you shave it, the carcass gets less stiff (less material), but the tread deforms less, so the tire is potentially more responsive. You have to run very high pressures on this tire to make it wear properly, and to keep it from flopping around.

 

Non of that really matters. There is a perceived disparity with these tires, but there is a disparity with almost every other advantage available to a competitor. The neon is not going to win STS anytime soon, should we ban civics from STS? There is an inherent divide between competitors, based on resources, and commitment. This tire, and any other perceived advantage that favors the competitors that are committed, and use the resources that are available to them, but not the other half, will always be complained about, but that doesn't formulate grounds for making something illegal.

 

Determining whether a tire should or shouldn't be legal should not be evaluated by subjective, whimsical data. You can't hold a manufacturer responsible for a TW rating at the tread depths that we run them at; the tires are almost always modified to be ran. The rules do not say that one must shave a tire to be run in ST, but we shave them. The only data that the manufacturers can be held accountable for, are as manufactured and delivered. There are so many bad things that can happen by limiting competitors to unshaven tires, that one could protest a competitor that shows up on non-sticker tires; any wear could be seen as an advantage.  Forcing manufacturers to make race tread street tires, only means higher costs and fewer options. The only thing we can do, is to enforce the rule to preclude the use of unsafe tires (which we have), that meet manufacturing requirements. The rest is what it is.


 

 
 

ProDarwin:

 

From TireRack:

When looking at UTQG ratings it is important to realize that the Department of Transportation does not conduct the tests. The grades are assigned by the tire manufacturers based on their test results or those conducted by an independent testing company they have hired.

 

Seems to me that treadwear discussions are pointless.  Tire manufacturers slap whatever treadwear they desire on their tires.  Comparing numbers between manufacturers is apples to oranges.
 

Again, exagerration.  They don't just "slap whatever treadwear they desire" on them.  Yes, there is room to maneuver.  But there *is* government oversight.  You could say the same with catalytic converters since the manufacturers certify them.  But there is hell to pay if they are caught screwing up.  Remember the Firestone deal?  Tire manufacturers are not as cavalier as you might think.  There is little benefit (oooh boy, we won some classes in national level autocrossing!!) and lots of risk.  These are real street tires being sold mostly to real people driving them on the real street.  Yeah, we buy some to race on, but not the bulk of them.

Seems like the same discussion we have every year... 

--Andy
 

Andy Hollis:

jzr:

Re: allowing OE tires, more and more are coming with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups from the factory. 

Curious, can you name names?

Are these ST-legal cars? 

--Andy 

Can't name any ST-legal cars.  Closest would probably be a car that never made it to the US, the E46 M3 CSL.  Recent cars here with them include the 997 GT3 and SRT-10 ACR.  While they're both track-oriented vehicles I'd argue they're also both more streetable than the majority of top-flight ST cars.  Maybe we'll see them show up on more cars once manufacturers realize they can win just about any handling comparison with these tires, regardless of how crap their chassis might be.

 :edit: - Snippet of a 997 GT3 review:

Just an everyday car

So despite having a much lower ride height and stiffer settings, the GT3 ends up being relatively comfortable enough to use everyday, not something we would have said about its predecessors.

As expected, the suspension has been comprehensively revised over the 996 GT3 Mk 2s, with new uprights, top mounts, bushes and other components in addition to new geometry to ensure that the front suspension arms stay geometrically purer throughout their arc of movement.

Lightweight 8.5J and 12J x 19-inch alloys are wrapped in either Michelin Pilot Sport Cup or Pirelli P Zero Corsa trackday rubber. These are not off-the-shelf tyres, but have been specially developed for the new GT3 and enable it to pull a stunning 1.4g lateral acceleration in the dry.

They are still vulnerable to aquaplaning because of their shallower tread depth, but on a plain wet road without big puddles, their grip is now no worse than a normal road tyre whose tread has been worn to a similar depth.G

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--Jason Rhoades

SerNick:

SpyderVenom:

I want to get this straight...  You guys are complaining about reduced tread life after you've shaved a set of tires?  Am I the only one that finds that a little funny (in multiple definitions of the word)? 

Most street tires last longer when shaved because of less heat buildup and tread block tearing.

Most street tires last longer when autocrossed because...  I understand why it's done but to me it's like complaining that my car get's poor gas milage when autocrossed.  A full tread tire will last longer than a shaved tire when driven on the street and not abused. 

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

I have a feeling it's safe to assume he meant most street tires, when autocrossed, will last longer when shaved.

 I forget what it was, but I remember talk of a tire a year or 2 back that, if not shaved, would start to chunk severely after only a few runs. May have been an r-comp, I wasn't really an interested party at that point lol
 

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Andrew
STS2 114 - 1992 Miata

SpyderVenom:

SerNick:

Most street tires last longer when shaved because of less heat buildup and tread block tearing.

Most street tires last longer when autocrossed because...  I understand why it's done but to me it's like complaining that my car get's poor gas milage when autocrossed.  A full tread tire will last longer than a shaved tire when driven on the street and not abused. 

Of course. But we aren't talking about driving on the street here, are we? 

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Brian Davis, 89 Civic Si, 158 STS

turbohappy:

SpyderVenom:

SerNick:

Most street tires last longer when shaved because of less heat buildup and tread block tearing.

Most street tires last longer when autocrossed because...  I understand why it's done but to me it's like complaining that my car get's poor gas milage when autocrossed.  A full tread tire will last longer than a shaved tire when driven on the street and not abused. 

Of course. But we aren't talking about driving on the street here, are we? 

Which was my point earlier about people complaining about getting tire wear and fewer runs after they cut most of the tread off the tire.   

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

Andy Hollis:

And I think my performance there made a pretty good case that said driver is plenty competitive. 

 

Fixed that for you.   

Tire wear rate matters because tires are expensive and we use a lot of them.  Your argument that since we use a set a year we shouldn't be concerned about using two sets a year makes no sense to me.  That would be like not caring whether your truck got 5 mpg or 10 mpg.  Yes the expectations are low but that only serves to make the actual results all the more important.

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1991 Miata STS2
Recovering former member of the pushrod posse

jzr:

Just to throw my idea back out there

When a new tire comes out, we get its first year to evaluate its "ST-ness" in terms of price, performance, longevity, streetability, etc.  Members can write in and vote over whether it's a tire they'd like to compete on or not.

Jason, that's where your idea falls apart.  This "first year to evaluate it's "ST-ness"" is pretty much how the tire wars are played out anyway.  There seems to be at least one new tire per year that's maybe better or is better.  Who cares about the "list" if it's full of old "last year's tires" while a new "testing year" tire rips it up.

 Does it strike anyone else as odd that all the people complaining about the R1Rs and how the only last 20 runs haven't actually driven on the tire yet?

 
Whatever... there's no sky falling and the tire is not the be all end all so who cares?
 

glagola1:

[Jason, that's where your idea falls apart.  This "first year to evaluate it's "ST-ness"" is pretty much how the tire wars are played out anyway.  There seems to be at least one new tire per year that's maybe better or is better.  Who cares about the "list" if it's full of old "last year's tires" while a new "testing year" tire rips it up.

I don't know that it "falls apart", it just serves a different goal.  My thought is that in Jan/Feb when the rulebook comes out, competitors already know exactly which rules they'll be competing with, and it might be nice to also know exactly which tires (and specific sizes) that competition will be happening on.  For most cars, tires as a modification are more important and potentially performance-altering than the sum of everything else ST allows.  With this in place, there is no chance that some weird ringer tire will show up by the April cutoff, or that a new ringer size of an existing model shows up just in time for nats. 

The end benefit is a person who buys the top tire when the rulebook comes out, knows it'll still be the top tire come September.  The negative, besides the management of the non-rulebook-readers (which is a problem all the time anyway) is that the class has to "wait" until the following season to get to compete on new tire models in National events.

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--Jason Rhoades

Rocky:

Personally, I would love to see an all SPEC A008 class. I miss those tires so much :)

Throw in the A-001R and I'm set.  I still have a set of those floating on the tire rack for some reason.

Chris H.
 

subrew:

Rocky:

Personally, I would love to see an all SPEC A008 class. I miss those tires so much :)

Throw in the A-001R and I'm set.  I still have a set of those floating on the tire rack for some reason.

Chris H.
 

 

Wow...they must be fossilized by now.  I was in 8th grade when those came out...and I'll be 40 in a few weeks.

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Erik B.
Wisconsin Autocrossers, Inc
www.waiautox.org ___/\___/\___/\___/\___/\___
2007 Mazda6
2000 "Fozda" ZX2 S/R--STS Anti-Civic

ebnrt:

subrew:

Rocky:

Personally, I would love to see an all SPEC A008 class. I miss those tires so much :)

Throw in the A-001R and I'm set.  I still have a set of those floating on the tire rack for some reason.

Chris H.

Wow...they must be fossilized by now.  I was in 8th grade when those came out...and I'll be 40 in a few weeks.

Kids! Sheesh!

I wonder who would still remember "Spongies" and the mentholated goop we used to have to put on them? Or the "sil-slicks", and how they'd chunk like today's R comps.

Rocky:

I wonder who would still remember "Spongies" and the mentholated goop we used to have to put on them? Or the "sil-slicks", and how they'd chunk like today's R comps.

Before P7 and Phoenix Stahlflex was the Vredestein.  I remember those.

And in the hyper-competitive Mid-Atlantic area, the trick tire was a good performance radial carcass re-capped with soft airplane-compound "tread".  That stuff heated up instantly and had a tread design that looked a lot like today's A6/V710.  You know the "no recaps" rule?  That's where it came from.

--Andy 

As long as we are making a trip down memory lane, many may find  this Tire Rack ad, circa 1986, interesting :  

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9954/autoweekgk8.jpg

 Chris Harvey

 

 

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Trent@TireRack.com
aka Chris Harvey