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I'm a big fan of the spec tire idea..  I was even talking about it with some people while at the DIXIE event.

 too many other variables and changes with the ST classes to have to deal with the "hot" tire..

 

I don't see why a tire brand who makes a tire model in a size each class can and is already using..   can't court the SCCA

doing so the SCCA can require that the price not increase...  (since this brand will have the monopoly, raising the prices would be somewhat unethical)

 SCCA can also require sufficient supply through a specific tire vendor... yet still allow the tire to be available through other sources.. so the vendor will not monopolize.

 sales of this tire would then increase...  allowing the brand to offer more $$$ in way of contingency.

 

just some quick thoughts.

 

 

Andy Ucter:

I don't see why a tire brand who makes a tire model in a size each class can and is already using..  

 

 Spec Tire...Maybe.  Spec Size--Absolutely Not.  You do that and you could easily make STS more of a SpecCivic class than it already is.  You'd need to pick a tire that offers a multitude of sizes, say ranging from 23" to 25" OD, in maybe 195 to 225 witdths ...and 15, 16 and17" wheels.  Something like the Toyo T1R comes to mind.  Not a great tire, but a good one...

 

I'm actually fine keeping things as is.

 

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Erik B.
Wisconsin Autocrossers, Inc
www.waiautox.org ___/\___/\___/\___/\___/\___
2007 Mazda6
2000 "Fozda" ZX2 S/R--STS Anti-Civic

Agreed, I'm fine the way it is.  Too many other issues in ST* than to start worrying about tire specifications.  Racers will always maximize any rule, just how it goes. 

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2006 Subaru WRX STi
Sponsored by AgileAuto.com
D.C./Philly Region - 3 STU
cardomain.com/id/piknockout

In the long run, tires are probably the most expensive cost in any racing class. In the "budget-conscious" Street Touring classes, it might be worth taking a look at the top tires to make sure that they aren't too expensive to run.

I would lean towards Andy's Idea. As he said, it would make it nearly impossible(at least extremely expensive) for a manufacturer to build a ringer tire.

I am not a big fan of Spec Tire. It seems to be a BAD IDEA for club racing. I don't think it would be any different for solo. Besides, different tires will act differently on different cars. Nobody wants to be forced to drive on a tire that isn't "best" for their car while it is "best" for their competitors car.

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90 Miata/89 CRX - STS2 #90/190

Not to mention if you require a Spec Tire for the class, what do you say to the kid driving up on his stock tires?

 "I'm sorry, but while your tires are inferior we must advise you that your car is illegal and you must now run SM."

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2006 Subaru WRX STi
Sponsored by AgileAuto.com
D.C./Philly Region - 3 STU
cardomain.com/id/piknockout

Wait, so a tire that might be competitive with the Bridgestone comes out at one NT, with a handful of drivers lending their experience from Civics, and we're all set to ban it?  If not ban it, then we are suggesting a re-write of the rules to make it illegal, and keep our Bridgestones at the top of the game.  Let me guess, the Bridgestone is at or above 180 treadwear?  Oh wait, how silly of me.  Of course it is.  And what happened to all this "treadwear ratings mean nothing between manufacturers."  Pretty convenient time to start using the rating for revisions.

Who would have seen that coming a mile away?  Oh yeah, quite a few people...the minute another tire comes on scene that might upset the mighty Bridgestone STS Civic monopoly. 

 
How about enacting this rule:

 
"No member of STAC shall receive tires at a discount, or for free from a manufacturer for purposes of racing, testing, or otherwise evaluating."  

 
i.e. the "Contracted drivers can't start bitching when their chosen tires might no longer be dominant" rule, excluding Kevin because he seems to be able to pull his personal interests out of the equation when suggesting revisions to rules.  Probably J-Rho too, because he seems like an upfront guy.

 

Carry on with the Toyo lynching. 

Chris H.
 

Bridgestone is only 180 in some sizes actually.

I was suggesting considering the Toyo for exclusion based on real treadwear. 40 runs vs. 200+ runs for a Bridgestone, Falken, Kumho, etc. (on an STS civic)

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Brian Davis, 89 Civic Si, 158 STS

I completely support re-writing the tire rules.  However, I don't think keeping Bridgestone on top has anything to do with it.  Hell, I've never run them, and probably never will until they make a reasonable size for my car.  My issue is strictly tire wear.  Autocross is supposed to be an affordable form of racing.  Every year the tires get better and better, but the tread life gets worse and worse.  Replacing them after 200 runs is costly... replacing them after 50 is downright absurd.

 I'm not out to lynch Toyo either.  Actually, they are poised to be the only manufacturer this year that offers a decent sized tire for my car (225/45-16).  After reading reviews though I'm not sure I can afford to race with such a tire.

 

subrew:

How about enacting this rule:

 
"No member of STAC shall receive tires at a discount, or for free from a manufacturer for purposes of racing, testing, or otherwise evaluating."  

 

So nobody can be sponsored by a tire company?  Only those who are independently wealthy can afford to race? Granted, wealth has a lot to do with it currently, but this would just make the difference more extreme.

 

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-Travis Finlay
1997 Saturn SC2
2002 Subaru 2.5RS
1995 YZF 600R

Andy Hollis:

As for rules improvements, I had a completely unrelated discussion a couple months ago on this with one of the honchos at the Tire Rack, and he made some good suggestions that may deserve some consideration.  

2) Minimum "new" molded tread depth of 8/32nds.

I don't understand this rule. Doesn't having a small "new" molded tread depth just make it harder to meet the treadwear rating? Bring on the 140 treadwear tire molded at 2/32nds...it will be pretty hard. 

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Brian Davis, 89 Civic Si, 158 STS

turbohappy:

Bridgestone is only 180 in some sizes actually.

I was suggesting considering the Toyo for exclusion based on real treadwear. 40 runs vs. 200+ runs for a Bridgestone, Falken, Kumho, etc. (on an STS civic)

I predict that you can get 80-100 runs on the toyos on a STS civic if you rotate front to back enough occasionally, don't have too much camber, and don't do burnouts.

Mine have 53, and still have life left:
http://www.tastybeef.com/tires/tires7.jpg
http://www.tastybeef.com/tires/tires8.jpg
and I started with them shaved to 4/32nds.

I don't think that is a reason to put them on the exclusion list.

 The tire costs for STS with these new tires are still a hell of a lot cheaper than most stock classes.

EDIT: If you are going to "clarify" the rules to exclude the Toyo R1R, make sure to leave some leeway, so that you don't accidently exclude the upcoming bstone RE-11 tire ;)   Honestly, I have no issue with the R1R being excluded, as I still have a fresh set of bstones, but until the R1R is excluded, I still think that it has a chance of being the tire to have for STS.  But, I do not see it being excluded any time soon, since it does meet the criteria of the current rules, and a contingency program is in place.

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Brian Bell - Atlanta Region
197 STX '97 BMW 328is
189 STS '89 Civic Si (now my wife's)

subrew:

Wait, so a tire that might be competitive with the Bridgestone comes out at one NT, with a handful of drivers lending their experience from Civics, and we're all set to ban it?  If not ban it, then we are suggesting a re-write of the rules to make it illegal, and keep our Bridgestones at the top of the game.  Let me guess, the Bridgestone is at or above 180 treadwear?  Oh wait, how silly of me.  Of course it is.  And what happened to all this "treadwear ratings mean nothing between manufacturers."  Pretty convenient time to start using the rating for revisions.

Who would have seen that coming a mile away?  Oh yeah, quite a few people...the minute another tire comes on scene that might upset the mighty Bridgestone STS Civic monopoly. 

 
How about enacting this rule:

 
"No member of STAC shall receive tires at a discount, or for free from a manufacturer for purposes of racing, testing, or otherwise evaluating."  

 
i.e. the "Contracted drivers can't start bitching when their chosen tires might no longer be dominant" rule, excluding Kevin because he seems to be able to pull his personal interests out of the equation when suggesting revisions to rules.  Probably J-Rho too, because he seems like an upfront guy.

 

Carry on with the Toyo lynching. 

Chris H.
 

Oh please, Chris.  I don't really care.  I am not currently under contract with Bridgestone and very well might not re-up.  I can afford whatever tires I need to buy and the testing to figure out what they are.  This has nothing to do with me.  I am responding as to what a well-known tire industry veteran (not me) suggested we do to help keep out ringers because other people were suggesting a ban (not me).  There were a bunch of drivers complaining at the Dixie Tour about this issue.  I was NOT one of them.  I'll run whatever I need to run to be competitive.  I tested before Dixie and found I was faster on the Bridgestone so that's what I brought.  And I think my performance there made a pretty good case that said tire is plenty competitive. 

To be perfectly honest, *I* would actually be better served personally by having one-event tires be the top dogs (think Toyo shaved to 1/32nd).  I can personally afford those on a consistent basis.  Most cannot.  If I was as self-serving as you suggest, I'd be pushing that angle.

If you read my posts further upthread, you'll see that I was actually defending Toyo's right to be there and that it meets the rules.

You really need to get over your personal agenda against me. 

--Andy 

PS: As I said to a number of complaining folks at Dixie, I do not see the R1R getting banned via 14.3.C.  It meets our rules perfectly. 

I want to get this straight...  You guys are complaining about reduced tread life after you've shaved a set of tires?  Am I the only one that finds that a little funny (in multiple definitions of the word)? 

---

Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

turbohappy:

Andy Hollis:

As for rules improvements, I had a completely unrelated discussion a couple months ago on this with one of the honchos at the Tire Rack, and he made some good suggestions that may deserve some consideration.  

2) Minimum "new" molded tread depth of 8/32nds.

I don't understand this rule. Doesn't having a small "new" molded tread depth just make it harder to meet the treadwear rating? Bring on the 140 treadwear tire molded at 2/32nds...it will be pretty hard. 

Yes, but there are a couple of existing treaded R-compounds designed for the track-day market (not A6 or V710) that come that way and might be able to still pass a 140 wear.

--Andy

 

SpyderVenom:

I want to get this straight...  You guys are complaining about reduced tread life after you've shaved a set of tires?  Am I the only one that finds that a little funny (in multiple definitions of the word)? 

 

Couldn't agree more Rob. It must be an East Coast thing. We're smarter. ;) 

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Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

2006 Honda Civic LX
8/108 HS

www.autox4u.com

SpyderVenom:

I want to get this straight...  You guys are complaining about reduced tread life after you've shaved a set of tires?  Am I the only one that finds that a little funny (in multiple definitions of the word)? 

 

Couldn't agree more Rob. It must be an East Coast thing. We're smarter. ;) 

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Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

2006 Honda Civic LX
8/108 HS

www.autox4u.com

Again, I will quote what I had just posted earlier:

Rocky:

As for a long time I had wondered (and spoke out against) how the "R" got into stock classes, when I remember the original intent of stock classes (and the original Showroom Stock road racing classes) was to be the absolute cheapest classes to get into any form of racing. Now we had to create "Street Touring" to allow true street tires, and this is getting out of hand too? But I think Darwin has a good idea! That is how they do the Speed GT and Touring car races, and that works great. Just a thought . . . . .

Now, stock class is pretty much a "prepared" class (tire wise, not mods) with just a "DOT" stamped on the tire. You really could not DRIVE the car off the showroom floor with them on, or at least not for XXXX miles. I am old enough to remember when there was the "penny" rule, checking for tread. And if the tire did not pass the penny test, it was too BALD, and you could not use it (of course, for safety reasons). LOL - now some of the "stock" DOT tires have nothing but a hologram tread pattern on them. So in a sense, regarding tires, the ST classes are more stock than stock classes. But now ST has gone totally bonkers, and now you have pretty much R comps with tread on them, being a wolf in sheeps clothing hiding behing a tread wear rating that I JUST DON'T KNOW who even checks them? Or how they even are measured? Might be interesting to see what they really measure out to, huh? Heck, the ST tires stick so good now, that the prepared and mod guys use them as the ultimate RAIN tire.

Now here is the problem as I see it - as long as some drivers will pay what ever it takes to win a race, and that means gumball tires that need to be shaved to near uselessness, and will only last X number of runs before they are gone and they need to buy a new set = they will keep doing just THAT. I would venture to say, that with today's modern technology, where we can now even make gas out of sugar, rice, pig's poop - that IF the tire company really wanted to make a good sticky tire, they CAN make one that lasts, and could be sticky right out of the mold without the need for shaving, and still be an every day driver tires to boot. But that just will never happen :(

Sheesh, I still remember the day, when I got an FTD overall (even over prepared and mod) at a Chicago Region SCCA / Tri-State event at Utica Kartway = with a bone stock 1969 Lotus Europa S2 (Jimmy Clark Special) on some skinny Uniroyal Rally 180 tires. And the car had over 80K miles on it, and was lierally falling apart. Just ask Jerry Sarnitero or Rick Ruth about that day :) 

Now some will say, "but gee, why did you get into this costly sport then?. The thing is, back when I started in 1974, it was NOT that costly. But somewhere along the way, Grassroots motor sports ended up as a name of a magazine, and no longer physically exists in the SCCA.

Just to throw my idea back out there-

The plan would be instead of a single spec tire, to have a spec tire list.  Each tire on this list would be managed like any other rule.  To legally compete at a National event, you would need to be running a make and size that's on the list of legal tires for your class.  While more rigid in some ways, it also provides additional flexibility in what could be allowed.  A lot of people might like to run the Toyo RA-1, for instance.

When a new tire comes out, we get its first year to evaluate its "ST-ness" in terms of price, performance, longevity, streetability, etc.  Members can write in and vote over whether it's a tire they'd like to compete on or not.

The bit that's a bit paradigm-shifty is that in order for this rule to work, it relies on the understanding that not everybody, particularly those at regional events, will necessarily know to show up on one of the listed tires.  We'd want to discourage the sort of situation where some noob finishes 12th of 14 at his first Tour on some crap General tires, and is protested by the guy on shaved Neovas in 13th, for 12th place guy's "illegal" tires.  I suppose this rule's biggest flaw is its reliance on that which we find so increasingly rarefied, common sense.

Re: allowing OE tires, more and more are coming with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups from the factory.  Once they've got some heat in 'em, these are faster than the current ST tires.  They are not so deathly in the rain, and last quite some time on the street too.  Their biggest non-ST-friendly trait (besides Treadwear 80) is they're a bit pricey.

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--Jason Rhoades

Rocky:

 But now ST has gone totally bonkers, and now you have pretty much R comps with tread on them, being a wolf in sheeps clothing hiding behing a tread wear rating that I JUST DON'T KNOW who even checks them? Or how they even are measured? Might be interesting to see what they really measure out to, huh? Heck, the ST tires stick so good now, that the prepared and mod guys use them as the ultimate RAIN tire.

Holy misinformation, Batman!

Any P & M person worth their salt would be using a Hoosier wet (DOT-R or race tire) waaay before using an ST-legal tire.  You are exagerating way too much here.

Speaking of exageration, ST tires are still not even close to current R-comps, at least not the top of the heap in each.  Sure, the worst r-compounds (Victoracer, Pilot Sport Cup, etc,) are not that much better than the best ST tires, but that's not a useful comparison since no one runs the worst tires legal in a category.

And finally, since you asked here's the UTQG treadwear info ..  Test loop isn't all that far from where I live.

I started in 1978, and I seem to recall the top tires of the day as being awfully expensive on a relative basis (Pirelli P7).  Cost escalation in Solo has more do to with popularity of the sport (tip of the pyramid is higher when the base is bigger) than it does with tire costs.  The sharing of information over the Internet has only made it clearer what the top dogs are doing, so others either spend to keep up, or complain.

--Andy

 

 

SpyderVenom:

I want to get this straight...  You guys are complaining about reduced tread life after you've shaved a set of tires?  Am I the only one that finds that a little funny (in multiple definitions of the word)? 

 

Most street tires last longer when shaved because of less heat buildup and tread block tearing.

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Nick Jackson
04 S2000 - BHP Brakes
71 240z w/some stuff