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Part of what makes Devens such an enjoyable event is the fact that there IS a sound restriction.  I didn't work course for F Mod (thank G-D) but I did work during BM, EP and FSP, which tend to be among the louder classes when you take FM out of the equation.  It was downright pleasant to not have to wear earplugs while working course. 

If Devens is lost, I am not alone in being an out-of-towner who will miss it a great deal.

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John Vitamvas
stranoparts.com / TeamWTF.org '04 Z06

I'm with John.  At Devens it was really nice to not get a splitting headache from loud cars.  If it's okay there and in San Diego, then it can be okay everywhere.  And if everyone has to play by the same rules, then no one can complain that they are being unfairly treated. 

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Jer
#196 ES
#187 SS retired

SIMMONS-RACING:

Is there any record from the Tour of what db the cars were at? I noticed the sound person was handing in sheets with the readings.

Eric

Records were kept, though I am not sure they were kept all day, both days. I don't know what happened to them but will see what I can find out.

-Chris 

SIMMONS-RACING:

Is there any record from the Tour of what db the cars were at? I noticed the sound person was handing in sheets with the readings.

 

Eric

There was supposed to be a recording of every car's dB, but that notice didn't get out to the sound person until late Sunday. So all that most cars had was Pass/Fail -Mike

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Mike Shields
1993 BMW 325is | 92/192 DSP

I can tell you that my car got called for 91db on my third run Sat.  Same exhaust I've had on it in the 2 years since I got the car so I'm not really sure what happened.  I added a deflector that was pointed down and had no issues on Sunday, when I was actually going faster  and had more time at full throttle and high revs.  I have never had a warning or been told I was close before in the 6-7 times I've run there and was surprised at being over the limit.  Bill Goodale had a selection of stuff to try and meet the rules available which was greatly appreciated as I was not trying to run near the limit on purpose.

 

To the poster at the top of the page, I was driving the green EP Rabbit.  Did it seem louder than the others to you?  I have no problem with having to meet the sound limit and in fact have no interest in dealing with loud cars, either my own or others.  I have run at sites that do not have limits but have never bothered taking off the muffler at those sites.

 

The section that Andy Hollis quoted from the rulebook is one I have wondered about before and I agree that some minimum, objective standard added to it would be more useful.  I know a number of people were surprised I was over on sound as they thought a number of other cars were much louder/more annoying.  If the standard is purely subjective, numberous cars at the event could have had issues even though they meet the objective standard.  From the viewpoint of neighbors, the subjective standard would probably make them happier from a "make the annoying cars quieter" viewpoint but it would be awfully hard to show up at an event not knowing which side of annoying your car fell on until after someone told you that.

 

Andy F

 

The other part of this debate is that what you measure at 75' is not what you hear from a mile away.  Sound energy dissipates differently based on frequency.  Running at FedEx in DC really points this out.  Last time I was there I remember being surprised at one 4-cylinder something-or-other.  Standing next to the car leaving the start line it wasn't very loud, even when it got the revs up pulling through 1st gear.  There were several cars that sounded a lot louder.  But once it got pointed away from the stadium, the echoes coming back were just ridiculous.  From that standpoint it was the loudest car there.

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Dave Heinig

07 GXP Z0K (Thanks Rob!)

Mohudsolo:

To the poster at the top of the page, I was driving the green EP Rabbit.  Did it seem louder than the others to you?  I have no problem with having to meet the sound limit and in fact have no interest in dealing with loud cars, either my own or others.  I have run at sites that do not have limits but have never bothered taking off the muffler at those sites.

 I was working right next to the sound meter (captain for station 1) but I was not working sound.  I remember the sound guy calling in your car.  I think it was the only car over the limit during our heat.  It was loud.  It wasn't painfully loud like a mufflerless rotary.  It wasn't "I want to kill that guy" horrible sounding like an F Mod.  It didn't "seem" a lot louder than the other EP cars but the sound meter doesn't account for sound quality, just quantity. 

I distinctly remember you being on the gas right after you went by the meter on that third run.  Most of the other EP guys weren't hard on the gas at that particular point, for whatever reason.  You got a bit unlucky with that, I suppose.

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John Vitamvas
stranoparts.com / TeamWTF.org '04 Z06

Mohudsolo:

To the poster at the top of the page, I was driving the green EP Rabbit.  Did it seem louder than the others to you?  I have no problem with having to meet the sound limit and in fact have no interest in dealing with loud cars, either my own or others.  I have run at sites that do not have limits but have never bothered taking off the muffler at those sites.

John V:

I distinctly remember you being on the gas right after you went by the meter on that third run.  Most of the other EP guys weren't hard on the gas at that particular point, for whatever reason.  You got a bit unlucky with that, I suppose.

 

Andy,

Next time don't scream "yeeee haaaaaa" so loud as you drive by the sound meter guy.

 

 

 

John V:

It wasn't "I want to kill that guy" horrible sounding like an F Mod. 

John, you are my hero. 

--Andy

 

Any way to find out what the db levels were for my car at Seneca? 

96 SS

Thanks.

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

TedDBere:

Any way to find out what the db levels were for my car at Seneca? 

96 SS

Thanks.

Scott, Rob has a dB meter you can check with, although that won't help you if you're trying to pre-register for the Holbert.  I've heard your car, which doesn't sound as loud as the Lemons car did after we broke the exhaust on day 1, and that passed sound.

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Dave Heinig

07 GXP Z0K (Thanks Rob!)

DaveH:

TedDBere:

Any way to find out what the db levels were for my car at Seneca? 

96 SS

Thanks.

Scott, Rob has a dB meter you can check with, although that won't help you if you're trying to pre-register for the Holbert.  I've heard your car, which doesn't sound as loud as the Lemons car did after we broke the exhaust on day 1, and that passed sound.

Thanks, I went out and bought a meter at RadioShack and used it during the practice starts.  My car was consistantly peaking 91dbs with one spike to 92 db from about 50 ft directly behind the start.  But since they were collecting data during the ProSolo I was curious how high it was on course with an official person measuring it.

Given this knowledge that a SS 2004 Corvette LS6 Z06, with cats and no mufflers, will top out at about 92 db then a national limit of 95db may be reasonable.

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

I found what was being said in this thread very interesting. Perspectives from seasoned veterans, to relative new comers, to marka. Here's what 10 seconds of googling turns up:

http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/hearingloss.cfm

There is a chart linking sound exposure in decibels to hearing loss. The suggestion of 150db at 150' would basically lead to instantaneous hearing damage. I think the 95 db suggestion is a good one. And I think it should be at close range for the benefit of the starter and grid workers. This is plenty loud for those cars with somewhat open exhausts. I would think it would be more within the spirit of the grassroots nature of autocross to have this sort of restriction, such that people would not have to show up at events and swap to turn downs and such. If your argument is for mod cars, great, just build them with the restriction in mind. Realistically this would affect a minority of cars, and be in the best interest of course workers. If certain sites require a more imposing restriction that would be case by case. Autocross is supposed to be fun, first and foremost. Having to suffer hearing damage because someone brings a miata with a straight pipe is not really fair to the 98% of people with reasonable cars.

The sound thing irks me.  :D

P.S. does this forum have an ignore button for marka's posts? And a "bring to top function" for david lehman's posts? One I want to push into a river, the other makes me laugh. :) 

niles:

I found what was being

P.S. does this forum have an ignore button for marka's posts?

 

 I don't always agree with him, and recently have very much disagreed with his position, but have always found Mark to provide a good take.  I would not want to just ignore everyone that disagrees with me.

 

 

And a "bring to top function" for david lehman's posts?

 

And now you have lost ALL credibility.

 

:) 

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2006 Noble M400 (E-Mod?)
CHASECAM the global leader in motorsport video acqusition. We innovate, not copy or import. Sponsor for SCCA ProSolo, Runoffs, SPEED World Challenge, SCCAForums. Supplier to MazdaSpeed, V8Supercars, Formula 1 teams, etc.

The BM car in milwaukee was painful and was 12X at ~50 feet. I personally don't want to be subjected to that kind of noise ever again. The CSP cars were not quiet or pleasant as well and they were in the 100 range. Then there's always the FM cars and such that very few people like the sound of, but that everybody knows.

 

A clap of thunder from a nearby storm (120 dB) or a gunshot (140-190 dB, depending on weapon), can both cause immediate damage.

 

in my opinion, hearing damage is very real and should be taken into consideration as a club.

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Bridesmaid Racing
2008 SCCA Nationals DS Runner-Up
2008 Kansas City NT DS Runner-Up
2008 Milwaukee NT DS Runner-Up
2007 SCCA Nationals DS Runner-Up
2007 Milwaukee NT DS Runner-Up
2006 ASN Nationals DS Runner-Up

TedDBere:

My car was consistantly peaking 91dbs with one spike to 92 db from about 50 ft directly behind the start.  But since they were collecting data during the ProSolo I was curious how high it was on course with an official person measuring it.

Given this knowledge that a SS 2004 Corvette LS6 Z06, with cats and no mufflers, will top out at about 92 db then a national limit of 95db may be reasonable.

The 'vette really only does 92db without any cats or mufflers? I find that hard to believe.

As a data point, my Miata, with an STS2 head shave, header, OEM cat, and four feet of lightweight pipe to a turndown under the car picked up a 105db ticket at the Atlanta DoubleX in '07. Stan's XP car came in at 102db. That Miata exhaust was both annoying and too loud. I had to wear ear plugs under the helmet. 

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Aut tace aut loquere meliora silentio.

modernbeat:

TedDBere:

Given this knowledge that a SS 2004 Corvette LS6 Z06, with cats and no mufflers, will top out at about 92 db then a national limit of 95db may be reasonable.

The 'vette really only does 92db without any cats or mufflers? I find that hard to believe.

Ummm, I read it as "WITH cats" . . .

 

Norm

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seat time is where you find it (semi-retired) weenie CP '79 Malibu, (no longer ST/SP legal) '95 626

First off, I randomly read a few dozen replies here and there, but I'm not going to read all 158 replies. So, I apologize if I am restating the already posted or beating any dead horses.

I run a 2000 Trans Am in CP. I've just got LTs with turnouts. No cats, no mufflers, no nothing. My car is pretty loud. At 15 feet to the side of the driver's side, I measured 110db with a decibelmeter. I run predominantly road races, on a course that has no sound restrictions. However, I also do autoxes about a dozen times per year - either on an air base or at a stadium parking lot. Neither site has sound restrictions.

I will not put mufflers on my car. Plan and simple. My site and club do not require them, and they are not needed. If there is made a National sound level that I cannot meet, then I will not attend those events. For me to put mufflers on my car would require some fairly extensive fabrication, car modification and compromises in overall setup (the car is 3" from the ground, mufflers would have to hang below the current exhaust, car would have to be raised, underpan would have to be modified, etc.).

Now, beyond myself, here's what I see as the problem. Sound is not a problem for anywhere except for the "site". Therefore, each site should establish its own sound level restrictions. In practice, this is what is happening today. Some sites have restrictions that they enforce, some don't. For places that are under some restrictions, then they shoudl take any and all steps to ensure that they do not lose their site. But, there is NO REASON that a region that races at a location with no sound restrictions should impose one upon its cars.

There is talk of cost. Regardless of the total cost nationwide or the average cost per driver, the following is an undeniable consequence of nationally mandated limits. Some regions already have restrictions - their drivers will not be affected. However, for regions like mine, the drivers will be heavily affected. Let's assume that exactly half of the sites nationwide have restrictions and the others don't. It's been proposed that the overall cost of this would be $2 million. But, because this would only affect those sites without current limits, that amount would be spread among only half as many drivers.

Take my region for example. I know that we've got at least 5-8 cars that would not pass. Is SCCA willing to risk those drivers never coming out again to fix a problem that never existed at our location?

I've seen posts voicing concerns about hearing and the safety of peoples eardrums. I do not believe that this is an issue. My car is the loudest car that I have ever heard - no exceptions. It reached 110db at 15ft. This is the equivalent of standing on the 50 yard line of a football field during kickoff (look it up). Is it loud? Sure. Is it 15 feet from you for long? Nope. If a person is that concerned about their hearing, then they should buy earplugs (which some people do.

Also, regarding people's health - the person who is ultimately responsible for their health is themselves. If they think that the noise is too loud, then it is their responsibility to do something about it. We run in the middle of huge expanses of concrete, usually in the summer sun. Should we mandate that people wear sunscreen? Perhaps we should tell them that they have to drink at least 1 gallon of water? And, when a car loses control and heads toward a worker's station, who tells them to move? No one - they take it upon themselves to get out of the way!

My conclusion is that the system should remain EXACTLY as it is right now. Leave the decision up to the individual region and/or event. If a particular region has a problem, then fix it. But, don't enforce solutions upon people without problems!

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2000 Trans Am
Delta Region #14 CP

Copying my post from another forum to make a point:

 Major - perhaps I can throw another wrinkle into your supposition. There are a certain number of regions that already have sound restrictions in place. In these regions, I'd assume that all (or nearly all) of the cars are already in compliance. Therefore, the cars needing to be modified would only come from regions without limits. This has the potential to greatly impact your findings and the resulting conclusions.

Take the following situation. Let's assume that exactly 50% of all sites have sound restrictions of 100db. Also, let's assume that all cars in the regions with restrictions are compliant. In numbers (using your assumptions), this would mean that 6500 racers across the country are members of regions with restrictions. It would also mean that these same 6500 are in compliance.

Now, you've got the remaining 6500 that are in regions without restrictions. They may or may not be in compliance. Utilizing your probabliluty theory, you said that 23% of all 13,000 racers would not be compliant with a 100db threshold. That's 2293 drivers that are not compliant.

But, if the above assumptions are accurate, then that entire 2293 comes out of only 6500 members. This means that 35% of the competitors in a region without current restrictions would be told that they cannot race without making some costly modifications.

I can tell you right now that my region has no restrictions. If we told 35% of the people that showed up at our next race that they could not race without some costly (and, yes - $200 to an average autoxer is a lot of money) modifications, then we would lose probably 30% of our drivers (ony 5% would make those changes). This would shut down my region.

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2000 Trans Am
Delta Region #14 CP