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Howdy,

Let's put this in a slightly different perspective...

I've run events at lots of different places.  One thing I've found, without fail, is that folks from regions that have smaller lots have a hard time adapting to courses on much bigger lots.  There's lots more average speed (typically), more stuff to remember, etc.

I still remember running the first time in the SF area back in 2001 down on the Monteray Peninsula (I think it was).  Darn course was 60 seconds long and took _forever_ to walk.  I had a really hard time remember where it all went.  _WAY_ longer than I was used to here back east in the Pittsburgh area.

So what I propose to address this problem is that we limit all courses to only those that fit in a three acre area.

Mark

marka:

Howdy,

cmt52663:

Kind sir,

At the risk of repeating my question -- "With respect, and pardon my ignorance, but if the question is raised for Divisionals, Pro and Nationals, would that constitute increased cost and hassle for the region?"

I hate to dilute a good argument, but as I read this thread the OP was not suggesting that your region change anything.  Did I misread perhaps?

Ah well, I'll ship my oars on this one I reckon.

Cheers,

Charlie

OP:

More and more event sites are being lost due to noise or have some sort of noise restriction in place by the site owners. Qualcomm, Devens, and NHMS are just a couple that I know of off the top of my head. Running in a region where there is a sound restriction, I have to invest substantial amounts of time and money to make sure my car will pass sound yet make good power and be relatively light. For national events that have no sound restriction, I pull most of my exhaust off to save weight and get that extra 1-2hp. Even with a national sound limit I would probably due the same thing as my car should pass sound with a turn down in the tunnel, so there really is no real gain for me. What are the drawbacks for a nationally mandated sound limit though? Enforcement? An acceptable standard? Cost?

The way I read that, he wants a sound limit mandated across all solo events.  But, just for the sake of argument, let's go with only divisionals/tours/pros/nationals...

 

So what you're proposing is that because there are a few regions that have sound issues, we put sound limits in place at national events because its a hassle for competitors from those few regions to have to reconfigure their cars for events without sound limits, correct?

 

If local regions keep their existing sound policies, how does that do anything other than shift the burden of having two setups onto every competitor that _doesn't_ have a local sound policy?

 

How many national events today have sound limits?  Two?  Three?  I'm honestly not sure, but my impression was that it was very much the minority of national events.  And you want to mandate it across the board?  For what earthly purpose?

 

But let's keep going with it...  First, divisionals are run by the region, not nationals.  So that's some expense right there, if the hosting region didn't already have sound equipment.  Second, now a region has a choice to run with or without the new "national events" sound restriction...  I.e. they can either follow national rules (which means buying a sound meter & learning to use it, plus staff it), or they can screw over any local driver that wants to or does attend national events (since that national driver now needs two setups).

 

And we're doing all this why again?  Because a _few_ sites have sound restrictions?

 

Those sites exist today with local sound rules that work for that local environment.  Might be a really low limit, might be something higher, might be nothing at all.  If you don't like running solo events at your site with draconian sound limits, run somewhere else.  Don't force us to have to run your stupid limits.  We don't have the same issues you do, and don't want them.

 

Mark

47CP:

How about if we drop the sound limit proposal and institute a new muffler rule?

"All mufflers must weigh 20lbs and attach to the original mounting points."

Should be perfect....

:)

DaveW

Midiv Drunk Monkey

Crap, I had a nice sarcastic note along those lines and you went and ruined it.  Spoilsport.  Though since most cheap aftermarket mufflers are pretty heavy it should be more like 50lbs minimum.

-Andy M.   

marka:

Howdy,

CHRISFP78:

We run our events at a racetrack that doesn't have sound issues.  Please keep your restrictions to yourself.

Your safety argument above is similar to the one that banned smoking in grid but didn't ban the flammables... I.e. its a completely rationalization.

Our region doesn't need the increased cost or increased hassle in putting on events, and we're far from the only region that doesn't have sound issues.  If and when we do, we can address them then using the procedure outlined in the rulebook.  Until then, leave us the h*ll alone.

I think that is a selfish and expected response. I say so because even though it is not a problem in your neck of the woods, it is a serious problem in less rural areas. If we were to at least start a sound policy  for tours, pros, and divisional events than there would be no advantage to having a light or non exisistant exhaust system. When people travel to the large events from smaller less sound restrictive sites, they run into all kinds of trouble making sound. They resort to turn downs and turn aways or lifting to make sound. Problem is, they are still to loud. They just fooled the meter. The didn't fool the person on the hill who is complaining to the city The host region looses it's best site. If we had a "good" rule in place for national events. I suspect over time the problem would go away and we would be a good entity in the community at large.

Now if your local region has no problem with sound, than have at it. If you are planning on running on our site with your ear splitting car, stay the H*LL away from our region.  

Who's being selfish?  _Your_ region has an issue with sound levels.  Fine, address that with your local rules, like you're doing today.  The national rules even help you out by specifying a procedure you can use.

But that's not good enough for you... Oh no!  You want every single region in the SCCA to have to follow your local requirements.

Which one of us is being selfish again?

Mark

Read the last sentence of my post. I said "if your region has no problem with sound, than have at it."  You are being selfish IMO. Your not reading the post completely either.

Chris 

Howdy,

marka:

So what I propose to address this problem is that we limit all courses to only those that fit in a three acre area.

Oh yeah.

All you folks that run on concrete can only run when the concrete is damp, since us asphalt guys have less traction.

Yes, that means you can run when its not raining as long as you water the concrete down.  You're welcome for this additional consideration.

Mark

Howdy,

CHRISFP78:

Read the last sentence of my post. I said "if your region has no problem with sound, than have at it."  You are being selfish IMO. Your not reading the post completely either.

Which of us wants the national rules changed to address our local situation again?

:-)

Mark

47CP:

How about if we drop the sound limit proposal and institute a new muffler rule?

"All mufflers must weigh 20lbs and attach to the original mounting points."

Should be perfect....

:)

DaveW

Midiv Drunk Monkey

 LOL...

Howdy,

Oh yeah...  I bet the average turnout at solo events across the country is less than 100 folks per event (I'd actually be interested to know the actual #).

Since having larger #'s of competitors at your events improves folks as drivers due to the increased competition, I feel that's unfair to smaller regions that can't draw as many folks.

So, I'd also like to limit events to no more than 100 competitors.

So thats:

1) whatever sound limit you bozos come up with.

2) all courses must fit onto a 3 acre rectangle.

3) all sites must either be asphalt or watered down concrete.

4) no more than 100 competitors.

Right?

As a bonus, smaller lots will be easier to find, helping the site acquisistion problem.

Mark

Mark, sounds like you don't like folks applying a rule to everyone that really only fixes a small percentage problem.  And you are now extrapolating that analogy to a host of unrelated items.

 Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.

-Andy M.
 

Mark,

Hopefully we know each other enough for me to say this.  I know you have smacked me down before when I needed and deserved it.....

1)  If you are being sarcastic, you forgot the smileys.

2)  If you are being serious, you are being a jackass.

3)  If you can't at least acknowledge that sound could possibly be a future issue in our sport, go play with your kid and come back to the thread in the morning.  We'll all be happier for it. :)

DaveW

Midiv Drunk Monkey

Howdy,

47CP:

1)  If you are being sarcastic, you forgot the smileys.

2)  If you are being serious, you are being a jackass.

3)  If you can't at least acknowledge that sound could possibly be a future issue in our sport, go play with your kid and come back to the thread in the morning.  We'll all be happier for it. :)

Crap, I'll have to be serious then. :-)

I thought it was obvious that I was trying to draw analogies to similar situations related to sites, trying to point out how much it would suck for a region that didn't have that issue to have to deal with it anyway.  I was doing that in a sarcastic manner, but I think its safe to say that I seriously wouldn't support either a 3 acre limit or nationwide sound limits.

I certianly will acknowledge that sound could possible be a future issue in our sport.  So could changing DOT regulations, changing liability laws, and most everything else including aliens from space.  The difference here is that people aren't wanting to take a "hey, lets pay attention to this and if the need arises, deal with it".  Instead, in a time when most sites don't have sound regulations & most national events don't have sound regulations, we have people wanting to impose nationwide limits on sound.  Even if you ignore that most of the sites with sound rules today have _different_ limits, this is at best completely premature.

An analogy would be someone proposing to eliminate DOT tires from competition because the DOT rules are possibly changing.

So there, that's my serious opinion.

Andy, I have two things to say...

#1, I didn't ask for the seat rule in SP, though I certainly support it.

#2, the primary similarity between my stance on the seat rule and my stance on the sound limit deal is that I'm right in both cases.*

Mark

*Note for Dave.... :-)

Mark, think of sound problems like they are Starbucks. In the beginning they are only in the big cities and in the end they are in every town and nobody can do without it. right now you don't  have a problem and that is great for you. Some day you may have a problem and if there were a national sound limit in place you could go to the people that are trying to stop your events and you could say that SCCA national has a sound limit that we would like to try and it works in all these places.

 The Megga regions that are basically on both coast are having to deal with sound issues more and more often. So often if fact that we have to have sound restrictions or we don't run,period.Almost all of the mega solo events are in those cities so it is in nationals best interest to come up with some sort of sound limitation. If they were to show some sort of leadership on the issue with reasonable well written rules, it would be a big plus for the regions that are in trouble. If they don't, the big events could just simply go away.

 In our region locally, we have a sound limit of 95 db @ 100 ft. I don't think that you understand how loud that is. Frank Stagnaro, our local CP leaders car, is only 92 db @ 100 feet and it sounds awesome. Does not sound like a street car by any means. He is making over 500 hp and has no problem making the sound limit. If you are wondering why we decided on 95 @ 100, it's because it is an industrial OSHA limit that politicians can understand. A car with no muffler can't make that sound limit but they can make it with a pre silencer or H pipe of some sort and a Magnaflow type main muffler. '

In my opinion a Tour/Pro limit of 95 @100 would be a really good thing for the club in the long run and it wouldn't impact your club. That is of couse unless you did a Tour or Pro. If you don't put a plan together to deal with sound if the problem should come up, I think it is short sighted.

Chris

p.s. your wrong about the seat rule too.

marka:

Your safety argument above is similar to the one that banned smoking in grid but didn't ban the flammables... I.e. its a completely rationalization.

Our region doesn't need the increased cost or increased hassle in putting on events, and we're far from the only region that doesn't have sound issues.  If and when we do, we can address them then using the procedure outlined in the rulebook.  Until then, leave us the h*ll alone.

Increased cost?    http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103667

Fifty bucks.  Talk about rationalization.

Howdy,

CHRISFP78:

Mark, think of sound problems like they are Starbucks. In the beginning they are only in the big cities and in the end they are in every town and nobody can do without it. right now you don't  have a problem and that is great for you. Some day you may have a problem and if there were a national sound limit in place you could go to the people that are trying to stop your events and you could say that SCCA national has a sound limit that we would like to try and it works in all these places.

 The Megga regions that are basically on both coast are having to deal with sound issues more and more often. So often if fact that we have to have sound restrictions or we don't run,period.Almost all of the mega solo events are in those cities so it is in nationals best interest to come up with some sort of sound limitation. If they were to show some sort of leadership on the issue with reasonable well written rules, it would be a big plus for the regions that are in trouble. If they don't, the big events could just simply go away.

Chris, it sounds to me like the mega regions have their local problems in hand.  If sound concerns grow, I can do exactly what you're talking about doing today with no national limit at all.  The rulebook already has a recommended procedure, and there are some examples of places that are policing sound already, so I fail to see what the difference is to me other than you're trying to force us to do something we don't need to do, and may never need to do.

Also, I tend to doubt that this is an issue for the "mega solo events" (assuming you mean divisionals/tours/pros by this), since it would seem to me that we already require sound compliance at a few of those events to meet local restrictions... But we only need to do it for a few.

 

 In our region locally, we have a sound limit of 95 db @ 100 ft. I don't think that you understand how loud that is. Frank Stagnaro, our local CP leaders car, is only 92 db @ 100 feet and it sounds awesome. Does not sound like a street car by any means. He is making over 500 hp and has no problem making the sound limit. If you are wondering why we decided on 95 @ 100, it's because it is an industrial OSHA limit that politicians can understand. A car with no muffler can't make that sound limit but they can make it with a pre silencer or H pipe of some sort and a Magnaflow type main muffler. '

I'm quite convinced that I could make my car pass whatever (close to reasonable) sound limit that should happen to come along.  That's not the point.  The point is that sound limits should be determined locally by people on the scene, not by national.  Our sound limits aren't going to be appropriate for you and vice versa, and that's a function of the folks who are bitching about the sound, not us. 

 

In my opinion a Tour/Pro limit of 95 @100 would be a really good thing for the club in the long run and it wouldn't impact your club. That is of couse unless you did a Tour or Pro. If you don't put a plan together to deal with sound if the problem should come up, I think it is short sighted.

Dude, we _have_ a plan to deal with the sound should a problem come up.  Its the same plan every region should have and it states "do whatever the hell makes the lot owner happy".  We even have national recommend procedures for how to police sound, coupled with folks in the community that do it today for both solo and roadracing.

Please don't confuse our lack of sound control and no desire for sound control to exist with us being unable to control sound.  We could, if necessary.  Its not necessary. 

p.s. your wrong about the seat rule too.

No possible way.  Steve H. is on the other side of the argument, which means 100% that I'm on the side of the gods.

Of course, Andy H. also agrees with me, which means I'm evil.

Crap, I've just confounded myself!

:-)

Mark

Howdy,

Jim G:

marka:

Your safety argument above is similar to the one that banned smoking in grid but didn't ban the flammables... I.e. its a completely rationalization.

Our region doesn't need the increased cost or increased hassle in putting on events, and we're far from the only region that doesn't have sound issues.  If and when we do, we can address them then using the procedure outlined in the rulebook.  Until then, leave us the h*ll alone.

Increased cost?    http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103667

Fifty bucks.  Talk about rationalization.

Yeah, $50 isn't all that much.

Why don't you send me a check for $50 then?

:-)

Mark

You aren't at risk of loosing a site because it is too small.

Devens didn't use to have a sound restriction. We never got a complaint on sound. Then all of a sudden the site management wanted to end our events and yank the site. We asked why and that is when we found out we had sound issues. We had to scramble, plead, and beg to get a second chance. Mark, you're really willing to go through that?

You're right. I am selfish. I don't want autocrossing to go away. I don't want to loose any more sites, and anything that might help get new sites is a Good Idea. Will a national sound limit fix everything? Probably not but it certainly won't hurt the event and site aspect. Now, the competitors may not like it, but it is better then the alternative.

I agree with what Andy said. 

Maybe we could borrow an idea from the 24 hrs of lemons and crush the loudest, most annoying vehicle at every national event.  After watching an STX R32 or something get crushed, I think some folks would be encouraged to use a reasonable muffler.

I'd also support anything that would completely eliminate FM for solo.

marka:

Howdy,

CHRISFP78:

Mark, think of sound problems like they are Starbucks. In the beginning they are only in the big cities and in the end they are in every town and nobody can do without it. right now you don't  have a problem and that is great for you. Some day you may have a problem and if there were a national sound limit in place you could go to the people that are trying to stop your events and you could say that SCCA national has a sound limit that we would like to try and it works in all these places.

 The Megga regions that are basically on both coast are having to deal with sound issues more and more often. So often if fact that we have to have sound restrictions or we don't run,period.Almost all of the mega solo events are in those cities so it is in nationals best interest to come up with some sort of sound limitation. If they were to show some sort of leadership on the issue with reasonable well written rules, it would be a big plus for the regions that are in trouble. If they don't, the big events could just simply go away.

Chris, it sounds to me like the mega regions have their local problems in hand.  If sound concerns grow, I can do exactly what you're talking about doing today with no national limit at all.  The rulebook already has a recommended procedure, and there are some examples of places that are policing sound already, so I fail to see what the difference is to me other than you're trying to force us to do something we don't need to do, and may never need to do.

Also, I tend to doubt that this is an issue for the "mega solo events" (assuming you mean divisionals/tours/pros by this), since it would seem to me that we already require sound compliance at a few of those events to meet local restrictions... But we only need to do it for a few.

 

 In our region locally, we have a sound limit of 95 db @ 100 ft. I don't think that you understand how loud that is. Frank Stagnaro, our local CP leaders car, is only 92 db @ 100 feet and it sounds awesome. Does not sound like a street car by any means. He is making over 500 hp and has no problem making the sound limit. If you are wondering why we decided on 95 @ 100, it's because it is an industrial OSHA limit that politicians can understand. A car with no muffler can't make that sound limit but they can make it with a pre silencer or H pipe of some sort and a Magnaflow type main muffler. '

I'm quite convinced that I could make my car pass whatever (close to reasonable) sound limit that should happen to come along.  That's not the point.  The point is that sound limits should be determined locally by people on the scene, not by national.  Our sound limits aren't going to be appropriate for you and vice versa, and that's a function of the folks who are bitching about the sound, not us. 

 

In my opinion a Tour/Pro limit of 95 @100 would be a really good thing for the club in the long run and it wouldn't impact your club. That is of couse unless you did a Tour or Pro. If you don't put a plan together to deal with sound if the problem should come up, I think it is short sighted.

Dude, we _have_ a plan to deal with the sound should a problem come up.  Its the same plan every region should have and it states "do whatever the hell makes the lot owner happy".  We even have national recommend procedures for how to police sound, coupled with folks in the community that do it today for both solo and roadracing.

Please don't confuse our lack of sound control and no desire for sound control to exist with us being unable to control sound.  We could, if necessary.  Its not necessary. 

p.s. your wrong about the seat rule too.

No possible way.  Steve H. is on the other side of the argument, which means 100% that I'm on the side of the gods.

Of course, Andy H. also agrees with me, which means I'm evil.

Crap, I've just confounded myself!

:-)

Mark

Looks like you agree with me it's just at heart you are a non conformist