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More and more event sites are being lost due to noise or have some sort of noise restriction in place by the site owners. Qualcomm, Devens, and NHMS are just a couple that I know of off the top of my head. Running in a region where there is a sound restriction, I have to invest substantial amounts of time and money to make sure my car will pass sound yet make good power and be relatively light. For national events that have no sound restriction, I pull most of my exhaust off to save weight and get that extra 1-2hp. Even with a national sound limit I would probably due the same thing as my car should pass sound with a turn down in the tunnel, so there really is no real gain for me. What are the drawbacks for a nationally mandated sound limit though? Enforcement? An acceptable standard? Cost?

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Nate Whipple
NER
188/88 DSP ITR

Another piece of equipment a Region has to own and maintain.

Another worker position not on course.

Does everybody really want it?

Only for Divisionals, Tours, Pro and Nationals? 

.....

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Marcus
ESP 89
www.margravemotorsports.com

It is short sighted thinking to not require sound control.  Regions have lost or almost lost sites simply because no one told them about complaints that were coming in.  We shouldn't be reactive;  cut off the complaints pro-actively. 

And for anyone who has ever worked while unmuffled mod cars and prepared cars ripped by, it is painful.  Could also make a case for safety due to reduced ability for workers to hear each other.

 

 

Yes. For the good and longevity of the sport. So sites, no autocross.

Chris 

Yeah, that SOUNDS great !

Impose noise limits where no noise limits exist.(maybe if a car is super---super---loud---like earsplitting---maybe make those quite down if anything).

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While we are at that lets disallow any car not human or solar powered.

Hell, we could all race bicycles.  Or do 5k runs.

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SCCA   = Super f'ing boring / Constipated / Communists / of // America...........that's the club that I want to join---NOT !

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Trying to get faster

ESP89:

Another piece of equipment a Region has to own and maintain.

Another worker position not on course.

Does everybody really want it?

Only for Divisionals, Tours, Pro and Nationals? 

.....

At least for Tours, Pros and Nationals. Then the region doesn't have to buy the equipment, its already owned by national and comes in the trailer. Yeah, you do have to staff the position. Is that a deal breaker, or just the cost of freedom in the good 'ole USA? This sort of change in policy might actually help us find more sites if site owners know we're responsible enough to recognize the noise we make and its impact on our site's neighbors. Further, if we self impose the limit now, we stand a better chance of avoiding a forcing noise limit at a level that is unobtainable. Wording would/should also be added to reign in the short sighted individuals that choose to be loud and just point their noise in a different direction. For example, pointing your noise straight up so you pass sound but your exhaust can be heard echoing around the residential hills surrounding Qualcomm for 30 seconds after you finish your run.

I'm not sure if I'll take David's pov literally or not.

Nate
 

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Nate Whipple
NER
188/88 DSP ITR

My personal opinion is that we should fix the problem where it started: Nats/Tour/Pros.

When I started 30 years ago, everyone ran a real muffler like it says in the rules.  And Chief Stewards actually enforced that rule.  Even the mod cars were reasonable.  Then came the Neons.

Whenit was found that taking the muffler section off of a Neon gave it more power, lots of folks started doing it for Pro Solo (no Tours back then).  Worst-sounding car ever (that doesn't count F500 since they aren't cars).  This behavior was trickled down to local events, and then onto other cars.  "If its ok with national, it must be ok for local".  Within two years, it was happening everywhere and it's all been downhill since. 

We actually have rules in place.  They've just been interpreted much more lax of late.  

Get rid of the "ear bleeders" first.  Easy to do in a subjective manner.  Everyone knows which cars are obnoxious.  Fix the problem at Tours/Pros/Nats and you will now have modeled better behavior for regions to follow.

The problem with the various objective sound control methodologies in place in various areas is that folks have figured out ways around them (turndowns, turn-outs, lift throttle, etc.).  Similar to a radar detector for speeding, it  does not solve the problem.  We know who the speeders are. 

--Andy "reformed ear-bleeder"

Andy Hollis:

Get rid of the "ear bleeders" first.

Shhhhnecker?  You listening??

 

 

To be fair, Bill's car passes sound at Qualcomm.  How - I don't know - but it does.  Is there some way to measure obnoxious sounding exhausts that make your hair stand on end, even though they're technically under 93db at 50'?

Mike

Howdy,

Jim G:

It is short sighted thinking to not require sound control.  Regions have lost or almost lost sites simply because no one told them about complaints that were coming in.  We shouldn't be reactive;  cut off the complaints pro-actively. 

And for anyone who has ever worked while unmuffled mod cars and prepared cars ripped by, it is painful.  Could also make a case for safety due to reduced ability for workers to hear each other.

We run our events at a racetrack that doesn't have sound issues.  Please keep your restrictions to yourself.

Your safety argument above is similar to the one that banned smoking in grid but didn't ban the flammables... I.e. its a completely rationalization.

Our region doesn't need the increased cost or increased hassle in putting on events, and we're far from the only region that doesn't have sound issues.  If and when we do, we can address them then using the procedure outlined in the rulebook.  Until then, leave us the h*ll alone.

Mark

On a related topic.

I have had several co-drivers in the past that when I had asked them if they snored they said no.

The bastards lied !

I have lost many a night's sleep to inconsiderate co-drivers these last number of years.

--------------------

So my question for the membership is should loud sleepers be allowed to sleep in the same hotel room as their co-drivers that don't snore.

PS---I realize that I am not blameless because I have been told by co-drivers and ESPICALLY my wife that while I don't snore, I however do occasionally fart in my sleep.

PSS----ear plugs don't help when somebody snores---I know I have tried them----they don't work.

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Trying to get faster

marka:

Howdy,

Jim G:

It is short sighted thinking to not require sound control.  Regions have lost or almost lost sites simply because no one told them about complaints that were coming in.  We shouldn't be reactive;  cut off the complaints pro-actively. 

And for anyone who has ever worked while unmuffled mod cars and prepared cars ripped by, it is painful.  Could also make a case for safety due to reduced ability for workers to hear each other.

We run our events at a racetrack that doesn't have sound issues.  Please keep your restrictions to yourself.

Your safety argument above is similar to the one that banned smoking in grid but didn't ban the flammables... I.e. its a completely rationalization.

Our region doesn't need the increased cost or increased hassle in putting on events, and we're far from the only region that doesn't have sound issues.  If and when we do, we can address them then using the procedure outlined in the rulebook.  Until then, leave us the h*ll alone.

Mark

I think that is a selfish and expected response. I say so because even though it is not a problem in your neck of the woods, it is a serious problem in less rural areas. If we were to at least start a sound policy  for tours, pros, and divisional events than there would be no advantage to having a light or non exisistant exhaust system. When people travel to the large events from smaller less sound restrictive sites, they run into all kinds of trouble making sound. They resort to turn downs and turn aways or lifting to make sound. Problem is, they are still to loud. They just fooled the meter. The didn't fool the person on the hill who is complaining to the city The host region looses it's best site. If we had a "good" rule in place for national events. I suspect over time the problem would go away and we would be a good entity in the community at large.

Now if your local region has no problem with sound, than have at it. If you are planning on running on our site with your ear splitting car, stay the H*LL away from our region.  

 

Chris
 

marka:

Howdy,

Jim G:

It is short sighted thinking to not require sound control.  Regions have lost or almost lost sites simply because no one told them about complaints that were coming in.  We shouldn't be reactive;  cut off the complaints pro-actively. 

And for anyone who has ever worked while unmuffled mod cars and prepared cars ripped by, it is painful.  Could also make a case for safety due to reduced ability for workers to hear each other.

We run our events at a racetrack that doesn't have sound issues.  Please keep your restrictions to yourself.

Your safety argument above is similar to the one that banned smoking in grid but didn't ban the flammables... I.e. its a completely rationalization.

Our region doesn't need the increased cost or increased hassle in putting on events, and we're far from the only region that doesn't have sound issues.  If and when we do, we can address them then using the procedure outlined in the rulebook.  Until then, leave us the h*ll alone.

Mark

 With respect, and pardon my ignorance, but if the question is raised for Divisionals, Pro and Nationals, would that constitute increased cost and hassle for the region?

I completely (I think) sympathize with your pointing out that sound is NOT an issue for the venue that you run - true for many I'd guess.

But does the 'level playing field' question not matter at all?  When we host the Devens National the folks that come in from out of town may have to modify their equipment.  Conversely when the fast NER folks hit the road for a Tour, another possiblity arises for site specific changes.  So what perhaps?  A personal problem perhaps?

If NER is unique in our concern for sound, then I'd agree it's a personal problem - is that so?

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Charlie Thompson
'04 JCW Cooper [STX]
NER Cannon Fodder

Dave, I can't believe they would lie about that!!  I tell all the people who want to share a room with me that I snore, phart, and grind my teeth so if it's going to bother them then get their own room.  I rarely do any of these things, but if I do they can't complain.

Regarding sound restrictions.  Each site can do their own enforcement as it stands now.

I run without mufflers, but retain the cats.  At our last event the site organizers asked a CSP car not to come back without a muffler, but let my V8 power roar.  The CSP Miata car was much louder.

I have been told by other club coordinators that I can run at their "muffled" events also.  I asked them to listen to my car at a local event before I attempted to compete with their clubs so as not to put their sites at risk.

It's not the lack of a muffler that's a problem, it's the sound that comes out of the car.  Each club can set their own restrictions as it stands now so I vote to not change it.

Besides sound complaints are not just exhaust related, they include the screetching tires, and loud speaker noise too!

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

I don't think that a rule from on high stating a nationally mandated sound control policy for regional events is a good thing.  That said, I do think that National could set the tone correctly by placing a sound control policy on their own events.

Anyone measure the sound level of an STS car spinning wildly or an HS car trying for all it's worth to get close to an apex? I'm thinking that "noise complaints" come in the form of not only engine noise, but any and all noise heard by our neighbors. Shreaking tires are just as annoying as that FM leaving the line. What would the club (want to) do in that case?

My $.02 anyway......

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Jay Storm
96 Impreza L FSP
98 98 Impreza 2.5RS- co-driver DSP
Wives are like SCCA rules...
If she doesn't say you can...you can't

Howdy,

CHRISFP78:

We run our events at a racetrack that doesn't have sound issues.  Please keep your restrictions to yourself.

Your safety argument above is similar to the one that banned smoking in grid but didn't ban the flammables... I.e. its a completely rationalization.

Our region doesn't need the increased cost or increased hassle in putting on events, and we're far from the only region that doesn't have sound issues.  If and when we do, we can address them then using the procedure outlined in the rulebook.  Until then, leave us the h*ll alone.

I think that is a selfish and expected response. I say so because even though it is not a problem in your neck of the woods, it is a serious problem in less rural areas. If we were to at least start a sound policy  for tours, pros, and divisional events than there would be no advantage to having a light or non exisistant exhaust system. When people travel to the large events from smaller less sound restrictive sites, they run into all kinds of trouble making sound. They resort to turn downs and turn aways or lifting to make sound. Problem is, they are still to loud. They just fooled the meter. The didn't fool the person on the hill who is complaining to the city The host region looses it's best site. If we had a "good" rule in place for national events. I suspect over time the problem would go away and we would be a good entity in the community at large.

Now if your local region has no problem with sound, than have at it. If you are planning on running on our site with your ear splitting car, stay the H*LL away from our region.  

Who's being selfish?  _Your_ region has an issue with sound levels.  Fine, address that with your local rules, like you're doing today.  The national rules even help you out by specifying a procedure you can use.

But that's not good enough for you... Oh no!  You want every single region in the SCCA to have to follow your local requirements.

Which one of us is being selfish again?

Mark

Kind sir,

At the risk of repeating my question -- "With respect, and pardon my ignorance, but if the question is raised for Divisionals, Pro and Nationals, would that constitute increased cost and hassle for the region?"

I hate to dilute a good argument, but as I read this thread the OP was not suggesting that your region change anything.  Did I misread perhaps?

Ah well, I'll ship my oars on this one I reckon.

Cheers,

Charlie

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Charlie Thompson
'04 JCW Cooper [STX]
NER Cannon Fodder

Howdy,

cmt52663:

Kind sir,

At the risk of repeating my question -- "With respect, and pardon my ignorance, but if the question is raised for Divisionals, Pro and Nationals, would that constitute increased cost and hassle for the region?"

I hate to dilute a good argument, but as I read this thread the OP was not suggesting that your region change anything.  Did I misread perhaps?

Ah well, I'll ship my oars on this one I reckon.

Cheers,

Charlie

OP:

More and more event sites are being lost due to noise or have some sort of noise restriction in place by the site owners. Qualcomm, Devens, and NHMS are just a couple that I know of off the top of my head. Running in a region where there is a sound restriction, I have to invest substantial amounts of time and money to make sure my car will pass sound yet make good power and be relatively light. For national events that have no sound restriction, I pull most of my exhaust off to save weight and get that extra 1-2hp. Even with a national sound limit I would probably due the same thing as my car should pass sound with a turn down in the tunnel, so there really is no real gain for me. What are the drawbacks for a nationally mandated sound limit though? Enforcement? An acceptable standard? Cost?

The way I read that, he wants a sound limit mandated across all solo events.  But, just for the sake of argument, let's go with only divisionals/tours/pros/nationals...

 

So what you're proposing is that because there are a few regions that have sound issues, we put sound limits in place at national events because its a hassle for competitors from those few regions to have to reconfigure their cars for events without sound limits, correct?

 

If local regions keep their existing sound policies, how does that do anything other than shift the burden of having two setups onto every competitor that _doesn't_ have a local sound policy?

 

How many national events today have sound limits?  Two?  Three?  I'm honestly not sure, but my impression was that it was very much the minority of national events.  And you want to mandate it across the board?  For what earthly purpose?

 

But let's keep going with it...  First, divisionals are run by the region, not nationals.  So that's some expense right there, if the hosting region didn't already have sound equipment.  Second, now a region has a choice to run with or without the new "national events" sound restriction...  I.e. they can either follow national rules (which means buying a sound meter & learning to use it, plus staff it), or they can screw over any local driver that wants to or does attend national events (since that national driver now needs two setups).

 

And we're doing all this why again?  Because a _few_ sites have sound restrictions?

 

Those sites exist today with local sound rules that work for that local environment.  Might be a really low limit, might be something higher, might be nothing at all.  If you don't like running solo events at your site with draconian sound limits, run somewhere else.  Don't force us to have to run your stupid limits.  We don't have the same issues you do, and don't want them.

 

Mark

Storm:

Shreaking tires are just as annoying as that FM leaving the line.

You gotta be kidding!

NOTHING compares to an FM leaving the line.  Well, nothing automotive.  I can think of several other noise sources that might be in the ballpark, but I digress.

Having to work scanner at the Ft Worth Tour this past weekend, I can tell you that there were only two objectionable "ear bleeders"   One was Chris Swearingen's SM2 Miata (who I tried to convince to put his muffler back on), and a certain FM car that decided to pull his muffler for the second day.  And I couldn't wear ear plugs because I had to hear the "beep" from the scanner. 

Procedure for scanning an FM: Finger in one ear, scanner near other ear pointed at bar code on helmet. Ouch!

You don't need huge procedures to identify these cars. I am not advocating the kinds of restrictive db limits and stuff that exist at various places around the country. Just some common sense application of the existing rules to the outlier cars at national events.  The rest will take care of itself.

--Andy