SCCAForums.com

Mooobunnny:

Otto Krosse:

.....OOOOHH....wait a minute! Now I see why there is so much talk about rules changes.....the bigger the tires and more crap you can get allowed into a given class makes for less competition within your class and thus gives you a better chance of winning your class.......very interesting concept. Winning by default isn't much of a win though. I would rather beat 15-20 cars in my class (like I've done in Novice 3 for the past 4 months) than 4 or 5 highly prepped cars in a higher class. FYI, I'm hoping they move the RX8 and E36 M3 to STX, then I'll have some serious competition. By reading your comments it's sounds more like you have a fear of losing. If you're any good you'll relish more competitors instead of trying to eliminate them via a new rule!

It's already gotten to the point that a newB can't compete in even a stock class without spending $500-1000 just for tires. Just how far can all these rules changes go before you make it too difficult for someone to get started.

 

These rule changes make MORE competition in the class, not less. I think your concept of all of this is very skewed. You should come to a National event. These rule changes would affect you in NO way in your local club. You mention moving the RX8 and E36 M3 to STX so you will have serious competition? Run in pro class at your event if you feel there is not enough competition there for you.

A newB can't compete in a stock class without spending $500-$1000 on tires? Hrmm, I must be imagining things when I see this happen almost every weekend. Most local clubs even have tire classes. I took my DS BMW out on street tires and finished 5th in PAX in it at a local event running in STS (for season points, I won STS in my DS car by 2 seconds) with very good drivers in attendance. It is very possible to be locally competitive in a bone stock car.

You seem to contradict yourself in what you are saying. You do not think most 2WD cars should be allowed to run larger wheels and tires, simply because you cannot fit them, yet you want to have faster cars moved into your class so you will have some competition? If there is no competition for you in STX, why worry so much about the rules? Just keep running your car and enjoy doing it. The rules changing will have VERY little affect on you locally, but I feel they will improve the class as a whole nationally. Would you feel differently if you had a different car? Probably so, but I'll admit that I would as well, even though I would admit it would be good for the class.

 

Do you really think the tire and wheel width rule with change things for you locally?

Otto Krosse:

Lets face it: HIGHER NUMBERS OF COMPETITIVE CARS = MORE DRIVERS = BETTER COMPETITION = A MORE REWARDING EXPERIENCE WHEN YOU BEAT THEM!

 

Right! This is why I feel the wheel and tire width rule is necessary. So many of the heavier 2WD cars can compete with the WRX and the civics. The class needs to get faster as a whole instead of getting beat by the "slower" STS cars. Take your events for example. The Civics are scary fast.

 

 

Actually what I said was that if only 1 or 2 cars can take advantage of any increased tire sizes it's a stupid rule because it will exclude so many other cars that would normally be in that class. It doesn't matter to me what class we are talking about here, it could be any class where a rule change can tilt the advantage to one car brand or another. If a car can't fit a part or tires that are class legal the rule is a bad rule, if most cars can take advantage of the rule then I say go for it.

 

The tire and wheel rule for STU will have no affect on me in any way....hell I can't even max-out my tire sizes for STX so I really don't care what they do in STU. I'm just here looking to see when or if the RX-8 and the E36 M3 will be coming back to STX.....then all this tire rules talk started up again....even though all these tire and rules changes were discussed (I mean beaten to a pulp) in another thread.

5th in Pax? Wow that's great, how many entrants at your events? We get an average of 150 drivers per series event.

Yeah, we do have a couple of really fast Civics at our events....can we do something about them too!??   LOL!!!

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1987 BMW 535is - 3300 Pounds Of Flaming Dynamite - STX, AZ Region- #17

Appliance Racing (yeah, like your refrigerator....only louder) ;-)

1984 BMW M635 - #408

Otto Krosse:

 

Actually what I said was that if only 1 or 2 cars can take advantage of any increased tire sizes it's a stupid rule because it will exclude so many other cars that would normally be in that class. It doesn't matter to me what class we are talking about here, it could be any class where a rule change can tilt the advantage to one car brand or another. If a car can't fit a part or tires that are class legal the rule is a bad rule, if most cars can take advantage of the rule then I say go for it.

5th in Pax? Wow that's great, how many entrants at your events? We get an average of 150 drivers per series event.

Yeah, we do have a couple of really fast Civics at our events....can we do something about them too!??   LOL!!!

 

We have 100-150 entrants at most events, most including past National Champions. I have paxed higher than 5th before, but that was just showing that a bone stock car on street tires can be competitive.

 

There are more than one or two cars that can take advantage of the rule change in some form or other. A large part of that would be the wheel width limit getting wider as well. Even civics could use 15X8.5 on the 225/45's when they come out. The rule could help at least a dozen cars out and probably a lot more. There are a lot of cars that are not even thought of for STX with the narrow (relatively) wheel and tire restrictions  that could become much more popular if allowed to run wider wheels and tires. Like I said earlier, I would love to see some Mustangs, in STX, maybe even some M5's, Mercedes and a Lexus or two etc. 

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00' 328Ci
01' Tahoe LT
98' Camaro Z28 - dead
95' 325is - STX 182

Otto Krosse:

I don't drive an auto-x car, I drive a car I really like at the auto-x. There are more of people like me than people that go out and buy their auto-x car and use it for daily driving.....and we are the core of the SCCA. Rules should accommodate the core and everyone else should fall in line. There are enough classes in the SCCA that there will never be a shortage of classes to go to to be a hard-core racer, all I ask is you leave the street tire classes alone and have rules that most any car can accommodate.

 

 i think i see the issue...you're assuming that ST classes are designed for the "less hard-core" autoXers.  that's not really true.  and no matter what the rules are, there will always be a few cars that can take better advantage of them and will rise to the top.  changing the rules might change the "top" car, but there will always be a top car.  most people who make your argument do so in favor of rules changes that (coincidentally?) would put their car at the top.

you still haven't addressed my point about the flexibility of the rules at a local level.  feel free to work within your region to promulgate rules that you feel will better serve the 150 drivers you have at events.  that way, the casual participants can have it their way, and won't be bothered by the national rules unless they go to a Tour event.  you haven't explained (beyond some vague populist rhetoric) why the people who take this seriously should bend to the whim of casual participants.  if anyone should bend, it's not the group that has put in more of their own time and effort.

if you're happy running a car you like, rather than a car that can win, then good on you.  but you're the one arguing that the rules should change to provide you a way to win in the car of your choice.  if you're happy being a casual participant, don't worry about winning; just have fun.  if you really want to win, make the commitment required.

 

Otto Krosse:

By reading your comments it's sounds more like you have a fear of losing. If you're any good you'll relish more competitors instead of trying to eliminate them via a new rule!

 

i do plenty of losing on my own!   i'm not a national-level driver; i haven't been to Topeka yet. my car and i are both competitive in class on a local level, but not beyond that...mostly because i haven't yet made the commitment and sacrifice necessary.  so i'm not some national champion seeking to keep the little guy down.  i'm a little guy who isn't trying to blame my non-competitiveness on someone else, and who isn't looking for the rules to give me a boost.
 

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Mike - #44 STS2
'91 Miata - racer
'07 CX-7 - dog taxi
www.phillyscca.com
www.GreyhoundAngelsAdoption.com

Mike....for a "little local guy", you got a lot of wisdom.  I wasn't going to even rise again to the "National rules should be made for the local guy" bait, ( I still think this is Cole with a new user name) but I could not have said what I wanted to say better than you did.  So, a big +1!

I think proponents of this line of thought *must* attend Nationals in order to gain some perspective about what they are saying.  Meet the people, talk to them, see the level of competition, find out what people who make this kind of committment to this level think about things, see why things are the way they are.  Gain some perspective from somewhere other than there home region.  Otherwise, they have no idea what they are talking about.  Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

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Patrick Washburn
STU Evo
www.winghats.com

dmitrik4:

i think i see the issue...you're assuming that ST classes are designed for the "less hard-core" autoXers.  that's not really true.  and no matter what the rules are, there will always be a few cars that can take better advantage of them and will rise to the top.  changing the rules might change the "top" car, but there will always be a top car.  most people who make your argument do so in favor of rules changes that (coincidentally?) would put their car at the top....

  .... i'm a little guy who isn't trying to blame my non-competitiveness on someone else, and who isn't looking for the rules to give me a boost.
 

Great post Mike!

WTF are you guys talking about? I run in STX (maybe you need to read my posts before you make your assumptions) and that's all I care about at this time. Read the damn title for this thread. All this talk of tire sizes for STU came up but that isn't what I started this thread for.

 

Since STU rules changes don't affect me I could care less!

 

....and for those thinking I'm trying to gain an advantage....there isn't one to be gained! Well maybe if they kept the E36 M3 and the RX8 in STU it would be to my advantage, but that too doesn't matter.

 

My responses about tire sizes was to point out that some cars can't fit the tires being proposed and that would be a stupid rule to institute if only one or 2 cars in STU could fit the new sizes.

 

 

....as you were! 

 

 

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1987 BMW 535is - 3300 Pounds Of Flaming Dynamite - STX, AZ Region- #17

Appliance Racing (yeah, like your refrigerator....only louder) ;-)

1984 BMW M635 - #408

Otto Krosse:

 ..... (maybe you need to read my posts before you make your assumptions) ......Read the damn title for this thread. .....that isn't what I started this thread for.

OK...just did.  Your question was answered in the second post.  There...we're done, right? 

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Patrick Washburn
STU Evo
www.winghats.com

well, per this month's FasTrack: 

 

The STAC is seeking member feedback on the following listing change proposal: Remove the Mazda RX-8 from the STX exclusion

list (ref. 08-056).

moving the M3 was not recommended.  odd, b/c they're pretty similar cars.

i think it's a good idea, and will seriously consider prepping one if the move happens.  letter pending!

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Mike - #44 STS2
'91 Miata - racer
'07 CX-7 - dog taxi
www.phillyscca.com
www.GreyhoundAngelsAdoption.com

How does a member submit a letter to the STAC? Is it stac@scca.com?

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Chike Dellimore - Blue Ridge/Washington DC Regions
2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT Mazda RX-8 (B-stock)
Former 2006 Steel Gray 5spd WRX (D-stock)

"I have a lot to work on...crazy is still on the list."

i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong, but i've always sent my letters to seb@scca.com

i know some people think their letters go into some sort of black hole, but i've always gotten fairly quick confirmation of mine.

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Mike - #44 STS2
'91 Miata - racer
'07 CX-7 - dog taxi
www.phillyscca.com
www.GreyhoundAngelsAdoption.com

dmitrik4:

seb@scca.com

i know some people think their letters go into some sort of black hole, but i've always gotten fairly quick confirmation of mine.

Thanks. I'll send my letter in tonight!

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Chike Dellimore - Blue Ridge/Washington DC Regions
2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT Mazda RX-8 (B-stock)
Former 2006 Steel Gray 5spd WRX (D-stock)

"I have a lot to work on...crazy is still on the list."

Hmm...RX8's are cool, I say let em play in STX.

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Chris
2002 Subaru Impreza WRX

East TN Region

dmitrik4:

i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong, but i've always sent my letters to seb@scca.com

i know some people think their letters go into some sort of black hole, but i've always gotten fairly quick confirmation of mine.

Until a couple months ago, I had not recieved a response since early 2006 :(

But now that Mini-Doug is in the house the responses are super-fast. Yay Mini-Doug! 

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John W: 2003 WRX: STX, 1998 M3
Washington, DC Region

What is the logic of allowing the RX-8, but not the M3? If I am reading the FasTrack correctly, the brake related changes would allow "big brake kits", right?

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Hank Wallace
1995 BMW M3 - 49 STU

Hank:

What is the logic of allowing the RX-8, but not the M3?

If I had to venture a guess, I'd say torque is the big difference between these cars. The RX-8 has a peaky powerband and in STX trim wouldn't make more than 160wtq at some ridiculously high rpm. An E36 M3 with its flatter 6 cylinder powerband would just be able to power out of tight turns much better than an RX-8. 

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Chike Dellimore - Blue Ridge/Washington DC Regions
2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT Mazda RX-8 (B-stock)
Former 2006 Steel Gray 5spd WRX (D-stock)

"I have a lot to work on...crazy is still on the list."

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner. My wife's Mazda 3 dug out of corners harder than my Rx8 did.

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Elliot Speidell

DSP 330i

sent my letter to the seb to allow the RX8 in STX

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Chris
Barth Mullins Racing

WRXtoRX8:

sent my letter to the seb to allow the RX8 in STX

Sent mine in as well and got my log book #.

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Chike Dellimore - Blue Ridge/Washington DC Regions
2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT Mazda RX-8 (B-stock)
Former 2006 Steel Gray 5spd WRX (D-stock)

"I have a lot to work on...crazy is still on the list."

how can I send a letter if this happenes I would buy an RX-8.

focus_wrc:

how can I send a letter if this happenes I would buy an RX-8.

seb@scca.com include your membership number.