SCCAForums.com

marka:

Howdy,

StrokerAce:

 I wonder if some people think you are more irritating than FSP cars? 

Oh, lots of people, I'm sure.

Hell, I often agree with them!

:-)

(But that doesn't make a national sound limit any more appealing)

To 1 in 9 on this discussion anyway. 

Mark

marka:

Howdy,

And, being serious for a moment (hard to do, but I'll try.. :-)

I'm 100% in agreement with having sound limits and following them for any site where such limits are needed.

I just don't believe we need a national rule forcing sound limits on sites where they _aren't_ needed.

Mark

That is until you loose your site for sound
 

Zauskycop:

Generally, I think Mark is just being very passionate about his argument here, and he DOES have a good one.   We in Chicago run at a drag strip....even the FM's are only mildly annoying here.   But I think Mark touched on, but missed the big picture with that shot of the Rotary EM car....

We currently have no sound limit nationally, yet now there is discussion of putting one on us, and for many of us, for no apparent reason.   Yup, it will be a cost to some competitors (myself included as I think the Spyder is a tad loud), and how much of a cost will be decided on what the "acceptable" level of noise is.   Will it be as much as San Diego???  WHO KNOWS?!?!  Yes, that is an EXTREME example, but certainly, the possibility cannot be discarded by saying "That is a bad example because they are HIGHLY restrictive".  What is highly?   What isn't?   It is a slippery path to go down when you start arbitrarily regulating sound levels "just because it may become an issue".  I see nothing wrong with national giving leadership on "using sound limits at sensitive sites" and giving guidance as to what would be a good limit.   But to say "everyone needs to run this sound level"  is just doing it because they can...

 Personally, I see a greater issue of SAFETY with SPEEDS on courses these days.   Why aren't they pursuing that?
 

I think the idea is for Tour and Pro events only. YOU CAN BE AS LOUD AS YOU WANT AT YOUR LOCAL EVENTS. 

CHRISFP78:

I think the idea is for Tour and Pro events only. YOU CAN BE AS LOUD AS YOU WANT AT YOUR LOCAL EVENTS. 

and nationals. 

My .02 is that I agree with Mark in that keep your "national" sound limits away from my events. FWIW I believe that my car will meet most if not all sound restrictions in the country, but it doesn't need to because afaik there's no site-imposed limits at my local events.

 I think the case can be made for enforcing some reasonable sound restriction at Nationals, ProSolos, and Tours, but as was mentioned before "reasonable" is open to some pretty heated discussion. I seem to remember from my car audio days that 3db higher was percieved to be about twice as loud. If this is true, then the difference between 90-95-100 is an incredible amount. Most people seem to be going in 5db increments, and that's probably not smart. 90 may be too quiet for some cars to "reasonably" (there's that word again) meet, but 95 may be too loud. I'm no expert, and I've never had to police sound, but maybe someone with more experience can chime in on just what it takes with some typical autocross cars to meet these restrictions. Also, what is San Diego's sound parameters? (sorry if it was mentioned earlier and I missed it)

 

---

Brian "Big Enos" Burdette

BigEnos, some sound data from my cars.

My STS car had you typical intake and header bolt ons. I used an OEM cat, and downstream from the cat I had the resonator section of a magnaflow catback exhaust at 2.25" ID. The exhaust terminated in the tunnel. The highest readings I got with that setup on that car driven to a nationally competitive level was 87db at 75'.

My new DSP ITR is running a header, resonated test pipe (no catalytic) and a full magnaflow cat back exhaust. It hasn't even triggered the meter yet.

One of the big issues with measuring sound is measuring methodology. It is easy to set a standard method for measuring sound though. Ignoring that method of measuring sound can get you some odd results. For example, my STS car that I mentioned above was once measured at 104db. Why? The club that measured the sound was doing so by placing the meter on the top of a cone set next to the start area, about 4ft from the car. They would guess when you were 75' away and see what the meter said at that time. Further they were not aware of how to set the meter to get an accurate reading and that resulted in the meter also being on the wrong scale. That is a completely useless way of measuring sound.

What is the easiest way to make sure everyone has the same guideline for measuring sound? Putting it in the rulebook and spelling it out. So now when you go to a region that DOES have sound restrictions (and who doesn't like traveling to other regions?) if you know you passed at site A, Site B will use the same measuring method and unless you've changed something or your car is incredibly close to blowing sound already you're most likely not going to encounter an issue. While that is not a perfect assumption, its better then having no idea what that other club is going to do to measure sound

Mark, trust me, I get it. I understand your concern. I thought for sure that when we passed sound limits at Devens it was going to ruin the sport and kill the fun. It hasn't. The only drawback is that with all the other cars being quieter now, nothing drowns out the noise of those damn two-strokes reving there engines for an hour at the time. .

---

Nate Whipple
NER
188/88 DSP ITR

My proposed limit is 150db at 150'.

I just caught up wit this thread and I say

"HUH?"  "Whadeesay?"

 

FYI - SCCA club racing limit is 103 dbA @ 50'

Most Spec Racer Fords are 93-98 at 50'

 

Wayne Hill

DA-Sound Control, SOWDIV

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SCCA 1966-82,93-now
Sound Control, DA, SOWDIV
Sr. F&C, ex crash-rescue

I think we need sound limits at all events because of the 5% of cars that are WAY to load.  I am so sick of getting my ears split by a few cars.

 

Robert

Howdy,

rjones:

I think we need sound limits at all events because of the 5% of cars that are WAY to load.  I am so sick of getting my ears split by a few cars.

And miatas annoy me.  So eliminate them too, while you're at it.

Oh, and street tire classes.

Mark

marka:

Howdy,

rjones:

I think we need sound limits at all events because of the 5% of cars that are WAY to load.  I am so sick of getting my ears split by a few cars.

And miatas annoy me.  So eliminate them too, while you're at it.

Oh, and street tire classes.

Mark

Howdy,

We could elliminate Mark while were at it too.

marka:

Howdy,

rjones:

I think we need sound limits at all events because of the 5% of cars that are WAY to load.  I am so sick of getting my ears split by a few cars.

And miatas annoy me.  So eliminate them too, while you're at it.

Oh, and street tire classes.

Mark

I always thought that the plural of Miata is Miati??? 

---

Tracy Ramsey
Team Blenderblaster
2000 MR2 DP Spyder

Zauskycop:

I always thought that the plural of Miata is Miati??? 

Wouldn't it be Miatae?

--

I'm in favor of some sort of uniform sound restriction.  All the obnoxious straw-man arguments in this thread aside, I think everyone can agree that cars operating at sound levels approaching the lower threshold of pain are not only completely irritating, but unsafe for both your hearing and your well-being on the track.  OSHA says that 85db over a period of 8 hours causes permanent hearing damage, and the threshold of pain starts at 107db.  If your car is distracting me while I'm working a corner because I'm involuntarily uncomfortable from the noise, then you're putting me and other drivers at risk.  That's the only reason why I support this.  Not for conformity (because no site will ever conform to LA SPL requirements), and not for retaining or acquiring a site (you can be just as "proactive" on this issue by asking your prospective/current site about levels they're comfortable with).

 

That being established, the way that SPL is measured needs to be rethought.  It's far too easy to cheat the system, which solves nothing and only makes the issue more complicated. 

---

#12 STS 2007 Scion tC
#24 ITS 1991 Nissan 240SX

Has anyone been to Toledo Express?  You know, the home of the 180th figther wing and the cargo company BAX Global (same loading ramp where courses are set up).  The roar of the fighter jets taking off is enough to shake the ground under your feet....and the cargo planes (727, DC8, and sometimes 747's) come and go all night.  The planes (way back it was about 40+) start to come in around 11:30 p.m. and the last one goes out around 5 a.m..  I really doubt the neighbors care about the "angry bees" of a FM car or unmuffled anything.

redsts2:

Has anyone been to Toledo Express?  You know, the home of the 180th figther wing and the cargo company BAX Global (same loading ramp where courses are set up).  The roar of the fighter jets taking off is enough to shake the ground under your feet....and the cargo planes (727, DC8, and sometimes 747's) come and go all night.  The planes (way back it was about 40+) start to come in around 11:30 p.m. and the last one goes out around 5 a.m..  I really doubt the neighbors care about the "angry bees" of a FM car or unmuffled anything.

Odd as it sounds, I don't put it past anyone.  Those are familiar noises to those people.  Like living next to train tracks, they don't hear it anymore.  Give them a new sound, and they will instantly pick up on it.  Skidding tire sounds are the ones that seem to drive people up the wall most, not engine noise.  That sound, while maybe not "registering" on the scale, will carry above most other sounds and people will hear it.  And think the worst.

Anyway, don't really have any opinions...just thought I would mention that.

---

Patrick Washburn
STU Evo
www.winghats.com

marka:

Howdy,

rjones:

I think we need sound limits at all events because of the 5% of cars that are WAY to load.  I am so sick of getting my ears split by a few cars.

And miatas annoy me.  So eliminate them too, while you're at it.

Oh, and street tire classes.

Mark

It's an old pic so go ahead they annoy me too when someone driving one beats me.

Nobody wants a hard sound limit with all the issues that come with it, but I think it is needed for peoples health and site retention.

It would be nice if everyone would atleast try to muffle their car to an reasonable level (people not holding their ears when they go bye) then it would not be needed.  A few people will run straight pipes because they can to gain .001 sec. Is it fair to the person being a good neighbor to loose to someone runing straight pipes by .001 sec.?

 

Robert

redsts2:

Has anyone been to Toledo Express?  You know, the home of the 180th figther wing and the cargo company BAX Global (same loading ramp where courses are set up).  The roar of the fighter jets taking off is enough to shake the ground under your feet....and the cargo planes (727, DC8, and sometimes 747's) come and go all night.  The planes (way back it was about 40+) start to come in around 11:30 p.m. and the last one goes out around 5 a.m..  I really doubt the neighbors care about the "angry bees" of a FM car or unmuffled anything.

Dan Maloney's place, Arizona Motorsport Park, is right next to Luke AFB.  Not that it gets the same amount of traffic as Toledo, but still plenty of two-ship afterburner takeoffs there.  Yet he still got shutdown by the local developers and their nearby housing subdivision due to "motorsport noise".  Something about the constancy (all day long).

I can see people tolerating "the sound of freedom" yet being annoyed by "the sound of kids squealing tires and revving motors".

--Andy 

PS: Anybody know the latest on AMP?  I keep hearing that he's still got a chance to revive through the legal/political process, but nothing ever materializes.  Shame. 

it can be put in an appropriate section of the rulebook such that regions can do as they please much like many of the current rules

however, I can tell you from firsthand experience that nobody wants to do anything more than have some fluff procedue that in the end fails to address the actual problem

 

---

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you." --Anonymous

marka:

 Address the problem when you know its a problem and address it at the appropriate level.

There are no national laws being proposed to limit sound levels for motorsports events, so I fail to understand why we need to consider a national solution for a local problem.

Mark

The thing is, noise is already a known trouble spot.  One of Philly Region's lots has a specified limit.  There are race tracks that don't race on certain days, or operate outside of certain hours for this very reason.  People do move into new housing developments located in close proximity to active racing facilities - and then b!tch about the noise.  Got one of those situations not too far away as well.  You do know that something like this could happen to your site, so an obstinate head-in-the-sand attitude makes no sense at all.

The point of a national limit of sorts is that it would be something predictable for everybody at every level of the sport.  Isn't that better than a patchwork approach where what passes muster at one location doesn't in an adjoining region that's maybe only a few miles away?

Being pro-active means that we as a club and as competitors get to have a say in the sound level and its measurement.  Do you really want to see arbitrary (let's see, 85 db is a number of some OSHA standing as well) limits imposed by outsiders with somewhere between zero automotive interest and active disagreement with the mere existence of the sport?  Or worse?  Got to look ahead at what it's going to take to keep running, not back at what used to be.

Edit:  BTW, the Philly Region limits are 96 dbA, with warnings of being close to that limit being given out if you exceed 93 dbA.  There's a little more to the policy, but those are the numbers.

Norm

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seat time is where you find it (semi-retired) weenie CP '79 Malibu, (no longer ST/SP legal) '95 626

Being someone from that area and one that HAS worked at BAX loading on the ramp ( belly and deck crew ), i know how loud it can get there. Still not as bad as some of the louder modified class or karts ( or any OTHER car running stupidly loud exhaust ) . We were only around the jets as they taxied in and we had ear protection. In autox you work the course or are in grid 5 to 30 feet away from these cars at full song in some cases. I bet they are louder ( how about the ears are subjected to more chance for damage)  than the jets if you hold a sound meter up at that distance.

 I think Andy Hollis makes great points. The residents are used to that noise. I do think there should be sound restrictions, and I think they should be enforced.

We (Central Florida Region )  have been involved with loss of sites here in Florida because of sound. Its a real issue. Be proactive before you lose a site. Be good stewards of the sites and the sport. It just makes sense.

Howdy,

Norm Peterson:

marka:

 Address the problem when you know its a problem and address it at the appropriate level.

There are no national laws being proposed to limit sound levels for motorsports events, so I fail to understand why we need to consider a national solution for a local problem.

Mark

The thing is, noise is already a known trouble spot.  One of Philly Region's lots has a specified limit.  There are race tracks that don't race on certain days, or operate outside of certain hours for this very reason.  People do move into new housing developments located in close proximity to active racing facilities - and then b!tch about the noise.  Got one of those situations not too far away as well.  You do know that something like this could happen to your site, so an obstinate head-in-the-sand attitude makes no sense at all.

The point of a national limit of sorts is that it would be something predictable for everybody at every level of the sport.  Isn't that better than a patchwork approach where what passes muster at one location doesn't in an adjoining region that's maybe only a few miles away?

No, and here's why... The patchwork that exists now (and its got rather a lot of holes) exists because different areas have different sound requirements.  A nationally mandated limit of 94 dB at 75' or whatever doesn't matter a hill of beans when you _still_ get noise complaints from neighbors.  Being able to say "we're following national limits!" doesn't mean anything in that context.

The only way it helps is if it prevents the complaints altogether.  But that won't happen because noise is mostly just an excuse to shut down an event you don't like for some other reason (see also "damn hooligans", "damn ricers", "damn kids", "damn traffic", "damn closing my parking lot", etc. etc. etc.) 

 

Being pro-active means that we as a club and as competitors get to have a say in the sound level and its measurement.  Do you really want to see arbitrary (let's see, 85 db is a number of some OSHA standing as well) limits imposed by outsiders with somewhere between zero automotive interest and active disagreement with the mere existence of the sport?  Or worse?  Got to look ahead at what it's going to take to keep running, not back at what used to be.

Being pro-active here means trying to think up every reason someone might want to shut down our event and address that issue before hand, _and_ expect that you're able to address that to the worst complainer's satisfaction.  I maintain that that can't be done, and we're just stabbing ourselves in the eye for no decent reason if we try to do it.

But hey, right now you too can get your local powers that be to impose a sound limit if you want to.  Regions are free to do whatever they'd like.  If you really think you're in danger of losing a site due to noise, impose a local limit and feel good about it.  Meanwhile, don't screw with folks that don't have your same issues or concerns.

Mark