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Are there to many classes? I have been asking myself this lately. I understand that it gives people more places to play and a better chance to win but how about looking at it from a contingency stand point. Take Mazda for example. Because there are so many classes, when they pay contingency, they have to dillute the pay outs. Same with all the other contingency pay outs like Hoosier,Kumho, Honda, Subaru, ect. Wouldn't it be better to pay fewer classes and make the pay outs larger? I suspect that if this were to happen that average class participation at Tours/Pros would go up for the classes that pay contingency. It costs double what it did ten years ago to run solo but contingencies havn't changed much in that time.

Thoughts?

Yes there are too many classes, but then there are too many different cars offered on the market ! You can't put them all in the same basket !

To the risk of receiving hate letters...I will say that contingencies should go only to stock classes ! Wait, wait, don't throw tomatoes yet ! If I am a manufacturer rep, how can I relate to modified / heavily tuned cars to benefit my image ? Yes winning Le Mans does a lot of good to Audi's reputation, because it is top level racing, same thing for Ferrari in F1. But I'm not sure I can benefit from modified cars wins in grassroot motorsport....because as we all know the more money you put in it, the faster you'll go (if you know how to drive, that is). 

On the other side, winning brands in stock classes will bring immediate benefits because most people can go to their dealer and buy the same "winning car"....Right ?

We all know that with money we can take an "Alta Bolero" made in Zimbabwe and make a killer out of it, that doesn't prove a thing about the quality of the stock car I would buy from that manufacturer.....

Just my 2 cents.... 

 

 

---

Michel Levesque

1985 Porsche 944 - ES

Yes, there are too many classes, particularly in ProSolo.  If it were up to me, for ProSolo we'd have:

1. SM/SM2/ASP/XP combined, RWD only 

2. SuperDooper Stock (SS + exotics)

3. AS/BS combined on index, RWD only

4. Indexed AWD/rally car class (STU/BSP/SM cars only)

5. Indexed FS/ESP/CP ponycar class

6. Indexed FWD class (ST/SP/SM cars only)

7. Indexed Miata class, if we must

No Prep or Mod or karts. No ladies classes.  AWD always runs first, followed by FWD, then AS/BS, then SDS, then ponycars, SM+ last.

Idea is to distill Solo cars down to those generally most interesting to the general populace.  If people notice the series and find it interesting, so will sponsors.  Having 1/5 the classes means the rewards should be approximately 5x present for wins assuming no net increase in sponsor participation.

Other ideas:

Faster courses, longer start straights

Much better scoreboarding system so people can actually follow what's happening.  Have it display driver photos and stats, car stats, sponsors.

Mandatory on-board cameras (Chasecam?) 

Small/light/disposable video cameras placed on key apex cones in fast sections a la Top Gear

Large breasted trophy girls

Play Green Onions when the final pair of a Challenge go to line up

 

The series has to produce content that is marketable.  There's already a lot of neat stuff that happens in a ProSolo weekend, do a better job of capturing, glitzing up, editing, and displaying it.

---

--Jason Rhoades

I can see the argument for stock car contingencies but what about tires? They work on every car that enters. I brought this up because I am in the process of buying medals for our Divisional event and I need over 40 first place medals. That means for an event of 200 people 1 in 5 will win. The odds seem to easy to me. It also waters down contingency payout. I want winning to mean more I guess.

 

Chris

Super Duper Stock

CHRISFP78:

I can see the argument for stock car contingencies but what about tires? They work on every car that enters. I brought this up because I am in the process of buying medals for our Divisional event and I need over 40 first place medals. That means for an event of 200 people 1 in 5 will win. The odds seem to easy to me. It also waters down contingency payout. I want winning to mean more I guess.

 

Chris

Super Duper Stock

I happen to agree with you, Chris.  But not because of contingency.  For me, having 1 in 5 declared a "winner" means that for many classes, competition is just not that stiff.  It dilutes the meaning of a win.  That's why I personally have always pushed for clarity on sunset rules for low participation classes when newer, more popular classes were added.   But some folks see Solo a different way.  More of a social outing where there is also some competition happening somewhere.  Go read the GP/DP/DM/EM threads for that perspective.

Me, I'm a competitor who races with his drinking buddies.  Others are drinkers who drive cars at races.  To each his/her own.

--Andy

 PS: If you are worried about contingency being paid for low-competition classes, look no further than "L" classes.  How many "L" class winners would be winning contingency in Open?  (Yeah, I know there are a few).  Good luck making that one change, though.

PPS: Jason, Pro Solo did used to have a reduced class set.   A number of classes were combined, some across category boundaries (e.g. SS & BSP) where they typically ran the same times.  That all changed back in the mid-90's.
 

Andy Hollis:

CHRISFP78:

I can see the argument for stock car contingencies but what about tires? They work on every car that enters. I brought this up because I am in the process of buying medals for our Divisional event and I need over 40 first place medals. That means for an event of 200 people 1 in 5 will win. The odds seem to easy to me. It also waters down contingency payout. I want winning to mean more I guess.

 

Chris

Super Duper Stock

I happen to agree with you, Chris.  But not because of contingency.  For me, having 1 in 5 declared a "winner" means that for many classes, competition is just not that stiff.  It dilutes the meaning of a win.  That's why I personally have always pushed for clarity on sunset rules for low participation classes when newer, more popular classes were added.   But some folks see Solo a different way.  More of a social outing where there is also some competition happening somewhere.  Go read the GP/DP/DM/EM threads for that perspective.

Me, I'm a competitor who races with his drinking buddies.  Others are drinkers who drive cars at races.  To each his/her own.

--Andy

 PS: If you are worried about contingency being paid for low-competition classes, look no further than "L" classes.  How many "L" class winners would be winning contingency in Open?  (Yeah, I know there are a few).  Good luck making that one change, though.

PPS: Jason, Pro Solo did used to have a reduced class set.   A number of classes were combined, some across category boundaries (e.g. SS & BSP) where they typically ran the same times.  That all changed back in the mid-90's.
 

Agreed, except for the DP part. I'm not in the mood to try and make any change, just pointing out my observation as trophy and contingency dude at our Div. It would be cool for National to take a look at it though. Larger contingencies for fewer classes would help to bring up average per class attendance. Remember the Neon money and how large those classes got.

Chris

CHRISFP78:

Agreed, except for the DP part.

Typo.  That should have said "BP".

--Andy
 

Remember, the aftermarket divisions of many of the OEM's make tons of money and are considered profit centers.  So they have a reason to sponsor classes above stock.

---

Marcus
ESP 89
www.margravemotorsports.com

ESP89:

Remember, the aftermarket divisions of many of the OEM's make tons of money and are considered profit centers.  So they have a reason to sponsor classes above stock.

You have a point ! As long as the car is street legal at least....A race car on a trailer is something else !

---

Michel Levesque

1985 Porsche 944 - ES

CHRISFP78:

 It costs double what it did ten years ago to run solo but contingencies havn't changed much in that time.

Thoughts?

While they have not changed a lot, they have gone up. I seem to recall when we started running Kumhos in 1998, pay was like $200, $100 and $50. Hoosier has gone from only awarding 1st place to picking up 2nd at tours and pros, and down to 3rd for natls. While Mazda pay-outs have not gone up, they do pay to 3rd place now. When you look at the cost to Club Race and the contingency programs they have, I think we are way better off. 

 

---

Jason Isley
2005-2006-2007-2008 B Stock National Champion

RX7 KLR:

CHRISFP78:

 It costs double what it did ten years ago to run solo but contingencies havn't changed much in that time.

Thoughts?

While they have not changed a lot, they have gone up. I seem to recall when we started running Kumhos in 1998, pay was like $200, $100 and $50. Hoosier has gone from only awarding 1st place to picking up 2nd at tours and pros, and down to 3rd for natls. While Mazda pay-outs have not gone up, they do pay to 3rd place now. When you look at the cost to Club Race and the contingency programs they have, I think we are way better off. 

 

A little finance 101 for you. In ten years, things have to almost double to keep up with "real" inflation. If Kumho gave 200 in 98 it should be 400 in 08. The contingencies have gone down 50% in ten years. Hoosiers approach works better because you win a product that is on the free market value system. How much did gas cost in 98? How much did housing cost in 98? How much did you make in 98?

Chris 

 

CHRISFP78:

 

A little finance 101 for you. In ten years, things have to almost double to keep up with "real" inflation. If Kumho gave 200 in 98 it should be 400 in 08. The contingencies have gone down 50% in ten years. Hoosiers approach works better because you win a product that is on the free market value system. How much did gas cost in 98? How much did housing cost in 98? How much did you make in 98?

Chris 

How about reality 101 for you... We race around cones in a parking lot, if you want to make money racing you are in the wrong sport. If autox is to expensive for you maybe you should not have bought the GT3.

---

Jason Isley
2005-2006-2007-2008 B Stock National Champion

I actually think we are short a few classes.  I think we have room for at least one more stock class.  And possibly a 2nd.

I feel the same about ST and SP.

I also REALLY like Jason's ideas about increasing the attractivness in the sport.  And feel they would be reasonable to implement, not to mention extremely effective in their role.

---

Jeremy Foley
2001 Subaru 2.5RS Retired G-Stock Autocross Beast
2003 Evo 8 Modded Daily Driver
2004 RX-8 Current Borrowed B-Stock Killer

President
Team if you can't beat them-Join them!

WAY too many classes:   The Ramey Manifesto:

stock - focus on marquee matchups befitting the SPORTS CAR CLUB OF AMERICA:

Very popular cars like the corvettes, Mitsus, Subies, ponycars,  3 series, s2000's, 911's, rx8's, should all have exciting marquee matchups that emphasize very similar cars - stock rules are not too bad, just some tweaking.

D, G, E, and HS should be combined at national events.  These could be broken out for regional racing, but most cars in these groups are not cars that the auto enthusiast public are interested in AS RACE CARS.

 

The SP rules are broken - and the SM/ST experiment did not work; it just diluted things further.

Mold them all into the new SP:  SP, no race only clutches, emissions legality, allow common enthusiast drivetrain and bolt on type upgrades (gears, heads/cam/turbos/strokers/, posis, rotors and calipers, hoods, etc.). 

ONLY classes for SPORTS CARS or at least very SPORTY CARS:  no more spending tons of time and money on cars the public would never want to see raced. A-E at most.

Gotta Keep CP!  XP is not bad either.  The Mod and prepared rules should merge, and also dramatically increase weights and minimum dimensions, so that there is a place to play in heavily modified modern sports cars as well as old "Resto Mod" cars.  Most cars people want to see raced came in well over 3000 pounds and over 95 inches of wheelbase:  there is no reason all the P and M classes are for cars half that size.

Carts dont really belong;  they have their own sport. 

The club racing rules should morph to match the solo rules, and vice versa so that you can do both with one car.

Sorry, I have to say it:  At the national level, ladies should probably be running open class.  I dont think it adds enough national interest to justify the competition dilution.   I dont feel strongly about it but I do think it hurts when it comes to contingency issues.

Should probably spec out a tire for stock and SP;  something that will last a bit longer and save on costs.   

 

Pet peeves:  

NO MORE DISPLACEMENT RULES,   E      V     E     R   !!!! THIS IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR AMATEUR COMPETITION!

NO MORE CLASSING CARS OF GREATLY VARYING SIZE AND WEIGHT TOGETHER!   THESE ISSUES ARE TOO CRITICAL TO MIX UP. 

NO MORE AERODYNAMICS!  ALLOWING SPOILERS IN THIS AMATEUR SPORT NOT ONLY LOOKS STUPID, IT IS  A COMPETETIVE NO NO IN AMATEUR RACING!

 We should be advertising the hell out of our sport, marketing it and seeking spectators.  The PRO SOLO's should be a HUGE focus.  If we had any popular support, it would be huge.  We cant be the secret car club of america. 

 

 

 

Chris, you smoking crack ?

If you get rid of the classes that you want, you would be left with CS, BS, AS, SS------now national tours would have 50-60 cars, and event costs would be $350 per entry.  Ok, since so few people showed up we would get like 6 runs a day (that like a Porsche club event).  ((and speaking of CS----aren't Miatas really girly cars ?))

What public are you talking about ?  When I say to people that my hobby is running around cones in a parking lot their eyes glaze over already.  All the "enthusiasts" like to do is wax their cars anyway.

You also say you want do away with Ladies classes-----well you will alienate some of the only people that I can actually beat-----and without the Ladies at the events, then my idea of "Ladies Nude Mud Wrestling at the (city name here) National Tour----then you will never get big crowds to come out.  But chicks nude mud wrestling, hell, everyone likes that even the "waxers", and they can wax their carrot  at the same time , if you know what I mean.

------------------------------------------------------

PS-----yeah spec out a slow a$$ spec tire that lasts forever-----hard as a rock------slow as molasses----and boring as crap-----yeah I wanna race that !

 

 

---

Trying to get faster

How about a class for spec sports racer chasis with novelty bodies?  Speed Racer meets DR2000!

RX7 KLR:

CHRISFP78:

 

A little finance 101 for you. In ten years, things have to almost double to keep up with "real" inflation. If Kumho gave 200 in 98 it should be 400 in 08. The contingencies have gone down 50% in ten years. Hoosiers approach works better because you win a product that is on the free market value system. How much did gas cost in 98? How much did housing cost in 98? How much did you make in 98?

Chris 

How about reality 101 for you... We race around cones in a parking lot, if you want to make money racing you are in the wrong sport. If autox is to expensive for you maybe you should not have bought the GT3.

You totally missed my point. I was talking about it from a competition stand point. The money was more to do with the fact that there is a larger dilution of contingecy because there are more classes now. I was thinking about a way to make a win mean more. The Neon example should have explained my position.  The fact is that contingency has gone down 50% in the last 10 years.

FWIW I own the GT3 outright, the motorhome is paid for, never have a credit card balance, the house is almost paid for and I have a six digit checking account so the money is not primary to me. What should I spend my year end bonus on this year

Some solutions to your issues......

1)   Race on old tires------this will save you a bundle on tires, and if you are lucky enough to win then you could sell the tires you won from the contigency.  Also, the competition will be harder as you try to win on your rocks.

We don't race for the contigency-----it helps but that's it.  What your not going to race, please.....your going to race----that's what you got the GT3 for.

And as far as your bonus..........may I suggest hookers.

---

Trying to get faster

Do people really autocross for contigencies?  If so they really don't understand economics very well.  I personally play the game for fun.  Its an adrenaline rush, and stress reliever on a Sunday afternoon.  I get to play with cars with friends, thats about all there is to it.  I don't think we have too many classes.

 Jeff Christianson

A lot of interesting ideas.....but the whole reason I own a kart is to autocross it. :)  I could care less about road racing because i can't afford it. It's kind of like a mod class with stock rules. You can only do so much. So it comes down to chassis setup and driver mainly....with some motor thrown in there.

I can build a top nationally competitive F125 for cheaper than I could have built my miata for ES. :)

Like CM its a stable class with decent participation. 

I also think L classes are a bit redundant at a national level. Maybe good at regional and possibly divisional levels. But I've seen PLENTY of women beat all the men. So it's not impossible. L classes are supporting a 1950's mentality that men are better than women and so we need our own class. So there is the enjoyment of running with the other women....cool.....they'll all be there if the classes are combined. Unless it's just for the money......  SOlo is the only form of auto racing I know of with a separate class for the women.

I also think GP could be done without and combined with EP and or DP as well. SM and SM2 could be combined. AS and BS could be put together. And DM and EM as well.
 

cbramey:

WAY too many classes:   The Ramey Manifesto:

stock - focus on marquee matchups befitting the SPORTS CAR CLUB OF AMERICA:

Very popular cars like the corvettes, Mitsus, Subies, ponycars,  3 series, s2000's, 911's, rx8's, should all have exciting marquee matchups that emphasize very similar cars - stock rules are not too bad, just some tweaking.

D, G, E, and HS should be combined at national events.  These could be broken out for regional racing, but most cars in these groups are not cars that the auto enthusiast public are interested in AS RACE CARS.

 

The SP rules are broken - and the SM/ST experiment did not work; it just diluted things further.

Mold them all into the new SP:  SP, no race only clutches, emissions legality, allow common enthusiast drivetrain and bolt on type upgrades (gears, heads/cam/turbos/strokers/, posis, rotors and calipers, hoods, etc.). 

ONLY classes for SPORTS CARS or at least very SPORTY CARS:  no more spending tons of time and money on cars the public would never want to see raced. A-E at most.

Gotta Keep CP!  XP is not bad either.  The Mod and prepared rules should merge, and also dramatically increase weights and minimum dimensions, so that there is a place to play in heavily modified modern sports cars as well as old "Resto Mod" cars.  Most cars people want to see raced came in well over 3000 pounds and over 95 inches of wheelbase:  there is no reason all the P and M classes are for cars half that size.

Carts dont really belong;  they have their own sport. 

The club racing rules should morph to match the solo rules, and vice versa so that you can do both with one car.

Sorry, I have to say it:  At the national level, ladies should probably be running open class.  I dont think it adds enough national interest to justify the competition dilution.   I dont feel strongly about it but I do think it hurts when it comes to contingency issues.

Should probably spec out a tire for stock and SP;  something that will last a bit longer and save on costs.   

 

Pet peeves:  

NO MORE DISPLACEMENT RULES,   E      V     E     R   !!!! THIS IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR AMATEUR COMPETITION!

NO MORE CLASSING CARS OF GREATLY VARYING SIZE AND WEIGHT TOGETHER!   THESE ISSUES ARE TOO CRITICAL TO MIX UP. 

NO MORE AERODYNAMICS!  ALLOWING SPOILERS IN THIS AMATEUR SPORT NOT ONLY LOOKS STUPID, IT IS  A COMPETETIVE NO NO IN AMATEUR RACING!

 We should be advertising the hell out of our sport, marketing it and seeking spectators.  The PRO SOLO's should be a HUGE focus.  If we had any popular support, it would be huge.  We cant be the secret car club of america. 

 

 

 

---

David Hedderick
Pearland (Houston), TX
01 CRG YZ125 (FOR SALE! $2500)
08 Mazda 3s
02 Mazda Protege (automatic tow vehicle)
92 Miata SE - Fun half-arsed STS2 Car