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m3kerry:

reallybluegti:

m3kerry:

me and my white 4 door m3 support this too. 

 Heh, white M3 4-doors unite!!    Small demographic, there. 

Did you send a letter? 

 No, but I need to.

It's a bigger demographic than you think, I too have a white M3 4-door

Back on topic (sort of), you don't build a class around a car you want to make competitive, you buy/build a car around a class you think it might be competitive in.  If in the end the car you built is not competitive in that class OR it becomes less competitive because of other cars, then change classes.  This happens all the time, it's called the sport of auto racing. 

McCall:

It's a bigger demographic than you think, I too have a white M3 4-door

Back on topic (sort of), you don't build a class around a car you want to make competitive, you buy/build a car around a class you think it might be competitive in.  If in the end the car you built is not competitive in that class OR it becomes less competitive because of other cars, then change classes.  This happens all the time, it's called the sport of auto racing. 

Well, unfortunately for me, that's why I bought the M3 a couple years ago, because I thought it would be competetive in STU (it was, at the time).  Having bought the car and spent some money on it, now it's not competitive because of the fast rise of the rally cars.  I still think it would be a fair competitor to the WRX, but apparently others don't agree.  And now I don't really have the resources (or the desire, really, I want to run ST) to change Categories or to start from scratch with a different car.  In short, I'm f'ed.  I'll just continue to drive my car regionally and get my butt handed to me by excellent drivers who made the correct car decision.  Or maybe I'll take up knitting.  I certainly won't bother going to any more National events, like I had planned when I bought the car.  Like I said a couple pages ago, STX might get faster with new cars, and the M3 might get considered again someday.  The fact that "this happens all the time", and the fact that you feel the need to point this out, is really rather discouraging.  Probably not your intent, but that's what it feels like on this end.

Oh, and congrats on your excellent taste in sedans.     I still love mine.

reallybluegti:

The fact that "this happens all the time", and the fact that you feel the need to point this out, is really rather discouraging.  Probably not your intent, but that's what it feels like on this end.

Well my point was to indict auto racing as a whole and not just autox or ST classes.  Just ask some of the Champ car teams how they feel right now.  All I can tell you is to keep racing your car and practice, practice, practice.  Regardless of what car/class/series you end up racing in, seat time will pay off better than any mod you buy.

Wow, now that was a lot of "noise" to wade through.

My experience tells me that the M3 was put on the STX exclusion list as it should have been (initially).  Now, after several years, I'd like to know why it is still on there.  And please don't throw back the rookie/novice placement issue.  It is definitely time to revisit the exclusion list for STX and hopefully not too late.  Why was the M3 put on that list (explicit reasons please)?    I've read a lot of [oh me] comments, but none that realy addressed whether the exclusion list is still accurate.

<Opinion>
I ran a Mustang prepped to STX and then swapped to a Vorshlag prepped M3 and wasn't much faster.  Point here is that why include one but not the other (Power verses Rear suspension).  Take my tire width down to 245mm and I'm only a little slower.  Take my wheel widths down to 8" and only a slight bit slower.  I personally like the idea of the M3 being eligible in STX in current STX form.  Is there really a need to limit AWD in tire size?  Or extend STX to 9" wheels and 265mm tires?  The last one sounds STU-ish.  MIght as well have a STUX class instead.
</Opinion>

<OffTopic>
The reason I was in the top of the list for the 2007 Tour in Houston was that I was setup for a slick track (home track advantage - much smaller rear bar than normal with a decent amount of toe-in at the rear).  The other M3s couldn't get power down early at all and if you watched the line of the AWD buggies, it wasn't very pretty.  Basically, brute force taking the win.  Another advantage was borrowed new 255mm Yoks on SSRs.
</OffTopic>

I personally vote for:
- Include the M3 in STX - Retaining "as is" rules
- NO to changing STX tire allowances

Once the E36 topic is addressed, you can piggy-back comparative vehicles (i.e. Rx-8).  Basically, I'm saying "let's stay focused here".

Chris S.:

Once the E36 topic is addressed, you can piggy-back comparative vehicles (i.e. Rx-8).  Basically, I'm saying "let's stay focused here".

You think the M3 should be moved to STX BEFORE the RX-8?  

Mooobunnny:

Chris S.:

Once the E36 topic is addressed, you can piggy-back comparative vehicles (i.e. Rx-8).  Basically, I'm saying "let's stay focused here".

 

You think the M3 should be moved to STX BEFORE the RX-8?  

No, not exactly, just staying on topic.  Another interpretation would be that if the E36/M3 does move, then that opens the door for others.

Also, I should rephrase some of my post wording as it might come across as cheeky (as the British would say).

Chris S.:

I personally vote for:
- Include the M3 in STX - Retaining "as is" rules
- NO to changing STX tire allowances

Once the E36 topic is addressed, you can piggy-back comparative vehicles (i.e. Rx-8).  Basically, I'm saying "let's stay focused here".

 

Remember: voting here is a vote for nothing.  Please write to seb@scca.com to make your opinion official!  It makes the whole process work much more smoothly if you include your SCCA membership number as well.

Mike
 

msimanyi:

Remember: voting here is a vote for nothing.  Please write to seb@scca.com to make your opinion official!  It makes the whole process work much more smoothly if you include your SCCA membership number as well.

Mike

Exactly.    I was hoping someone would chime in and re-iterate that point.

Hrmm, it looks like he "underdog" STU M3 set fastest time street tire on day two at the SD National Tour against some very fast competition.

 Half of the top 10 were M3's. I wish we had more STU M3's on the east coast...

I only read the first two pages of bickering.

That said, I noticed that people are complaining that STS and STX times are very close.  Then others say STU times and STX times are very simmilar.  Isnt that like saying there needs to be one big class?  That would be stupid.

The only thing that really needs to change is that in STU, the 2wd cars need to be allowed just enough fender modification to fit the maximum allowable tires.  period.  m3's have a hard time fitting 265's, most run 255's. yet the class allows for 275's.  thats RETARDED.  let them do what they have to to run 275's.  possibly handicap awd cars in stx a bit.  thats all that needs to be done. 

The answer is not to force people to hack into their cars to fit wider tires, just because the rule allows for 275s, that's retarded! The better option is to reduce the current sizes to accommodate the cars within the class, and reduce them further for the AWD cars if there is a significant advantage for those cars.

Not everyone is going to want to start modding fenders on an ///M car. That is sacrilegious! 

RtsLanE5:

possibly handicap awd cars in stx a bit.  thats all that needs to be done.

Otto Krosse:

The better option is to reduce the current sizes to accommodate the cars within the class, and reduce them further for the AWD cars if there is a significant advantage for those cars.

What, like 235 instead of 245 for AWD cars in STX? 

Only if a significant advantage is obvious. From what I've been reading it's also an STU issue as well.

I couldn't put 245s on if I tried, so any rule changes are not likely to affect me much.....and since there are no STX cars running in the OPEN class here it's even less of an issue for me! I am just moving up to 235/40/17s from 225/50/16s so I reached my limits and haven't even run a race with them yet. This weekend will be my first event with the new wheels and tires.

My main point was to point out how "retarded" it is to force people to mod fenders just because the rule allows for bigger tires than the car was designed to run.  

Otto Krosse:

Only if a significant advantage is obvious. From what I've been reading it's also an STU issue as well.

 

I couldn't put 245s on if I tried, so any rule changes are not likely to affect me much.....and since there are no STX cars running in the OPEN class here it's even less of an issue for me! I am just moving up to 235/40/17s from 225/50/16s so I reached my limits and haven't even run a race with them yet. This weekend will be my first event with the new wheels and tires.

 

My main point was to point out how "retarded" it is to force people to mod fenders just because the rule allows for bigger tires than the car was designed to run.  

Otto - for someone who races in an obviously less-than-ideal car for STX (a 3300 Pound, 4 door, 1987 BMW 535) you sure do have a big problem with allowing possible updates to the class that would otherwise help much more plentiful and competitive BMWs (moving the E36 M3 into STX, or adding 265mm tires to cars such as the popular E36 325) keep pace with the winning AWD cars in this class.

How hard is it to use a fender roller, anyway? Compared to many of the mods that are allowed in STX, this isn't the most costly or difficult allowable change, not by a long shot. Maybe if/when you are competing Nationally in a car that's closer to having a chance of getting a trophy you might feel differently, I think.

Not meaning to rain on your parade or belittle your opinion, but I think your number of posts in this thread is approaching 25% and you fight any possible updates to the STX class vehemently, yet you openly admit to having one of the worst possible cars for STX and no prayer of winning... it just doesn't seem to make sense how rigidly you oppose rule updates, is all. Do you have some other secret STX car waiting in the wings that you race competitively that you just aren't sharing?

Mooobunnny:

Hrmm, it looks like he "underdog" STU M3 set fastest time street tire on day two at the SD National Tour against some very fast competition.

 Half of the top 10 were M3's. I wish we had more STU M3's on the east coast...

Well, here you go again hand picking regional event results to show what we all know to not be true at HPT each year... (yes, even a Tour is somewhat "Regionally Attended") where M3s have yet to win STU Open in 3 years of trying. After the debacle in 2007 I think there's all of one Nationally competitive STU classed M3 that's even going to return to the class at Nationals in 2008 with a shot at a trophy (Mike S) and his car becomes illegal in 2009 (a/c).

Unless there's some new breed of West Coast magic M3 STU super drivers that have just joined the class (who don't seem to ever come to Nationals in a number greater than "2") I'll put good money that no M3 will win STU in 2008, either... I've raced in both STU classed M3s and AWD cars too many times to think otherwise: There is no parity between the AWD and 2WD cars in STU under the current ruleset, given equal driver skill and car prep. Period.

Fair:

Mooobunnny:

Hrmm, it looks like he "underdog" STU M3 set fastest time street tire on day two at the SD National Tour against some very fast competition.

 Half of the top 10 were M3's. I wish we had more STU M3's on the east coast...

Well, here you go again hand picking regional event results to show what we all know to not be true at HPT each year... (yes, even a Tour is somewhat "Regionally Attended") where M3s have yet to win STU Open in 3 years of trying. After the debacle in 2007 I think there's all of one Nationally competitive STU classed M3 that's even going to return to the class at Nationals in 2008 with a shot at a trophy (Mike S) and his car becomes illegal in 2009 (a/c).

Unless there's some new breed of West Coast magic M3 STU super drivers that have just joined the class (who don't seem to ever come to Nationals in a number greater than "2") I'll put good money that no M3 will win STU in 2008, either... I've raced in both STU classed M3s and AWD cars too many times to think otherwise: There is no parity between the AWD and 2WD cars in STU under the current ruleset, given equal driver skill and car prep. Period.

And that statement was very well worded by Mr Bunny.  The winning Evo won the event by 1 second (.998) overall vs. the M3.  And about that fastest day two time you ask?  Well it was a 60.504 vs. a 60.506.  Come on now...

McCall:

And that statement was very well worded by Mr Bunny.  The winning Evo won the event by 1 second (.998) overall vs. the M3.  And about that fastest day two time you ask?  Well it was a 60.504 vs. a 60.506.  Come on now...

And the winner of STU is now a back-to-back winner for SCCA-National Tour (San Diego).  And those that may not know him (Tom Kenna), I know him from competing in BMWCCA-LA, SD autox events and he's no slouch.  He competes in SS occassionaly here in Cal Club (or SD region) in a Mazda RX-7, but put him a BMW M3 (he's co-driven with me at BMW events) and he's quick.  Put him in a prepped STU Evo with AWD and he's mighty quick!! :)

Congrats to Tom K., on winning and also my friend Mike S. for 2nd place.

McCall:

And that statement was very well worded by Mr Bunny.  The winning Evo won the event by 1 second (.998) overall vs. the M3.  And about that fastest day two time you ask?  Well it was a 60.504 vs. a 60.506.  Come on now...

Heheee, yes it is a little deceiving. I do believe the STi and the EVO are much better cars to have in the class, but a very well prepped and a very well driven M3 can compete. Honestly, I don't expect to see an E36 M3 win STU at Nationals this year (sorry Mike and Terry) but I would love to. I feel it is possible, but the chances of one winning is much, much smaller than one of the boost buggies given the same level of prep and driving.

I also do not feel STX is the right place for them. I wish there was a better solution, and I think allowing fender mods to fit the largest tire size would be a good start. Not everyone wants to do that, but I think anyone who wants to be nationally competitive will. I bet some of the M3 guys have more money/time investing in finding the perfect wheel offset, wheels size, tire size, suspension setup, alignment, ride height and pinching/rolling of the fenders that allow them to run the biggest tire they can with the allowed modification. Even if Otto Krosse disagrees, I think allowing fender mods is a good thing, and a step that 98% of national level competitors would be willing to take if needed. I know I would without a bit of hesitation.

 Terry, I know this was a "regional" event, but there were some very big names in STU there. I think it not only shows Mike Simanyi's ability to setup and drive a car, but also that the M3 can compete when all the stars align. But, as I said earlier, if I had to chose an STU car to build from scratch in hopes of doing as well as I could nationally... it would bot be an M3.

Anyway, I did not mean to start anything. Just food for thought.   

Fair: