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andy, can you speak, unofficially of course, to the SEB/STAC logic of proposing 265s for STX when the only 265 option is a 265/35-18?  are 2WD STX cars really expected to runs 18s now?

the tire allowances of 275 for STU and (proposed) 265 for STX aren't manifest in an existing tire.  why doesn't the SEB/STAC base tire rules on tires that exist (or will soon)?

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Doug #81 STS2
1990 Mazda Miata
STU 2000 Audi S4 (retired)
STU 2005 Mazda RX-8 (retired)

Andy Hollis:

Its ironic because in the past the SEB and various ACs have been crucified publicly for putting out proposals that seemed not to have been well thought through.  And now the opposite happens here...

--Andy 

It's a d4mned if you do; d4mned if you don't kind of predicament Andy.  I, for one, applaud you for bringing these ideas and fact finding posts here because you do find good arguments and points of view through all the noise.

Now write your letters people!

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Jason McCall #47 STU
'00 M Roadster - XP (under construction)

shinronin:

andy, can you speak, unofficially of course, to the SEB/STAC logic of proposing 265s for STX when the only 265 option is a 265/35-18?  are 2WD STX cars really expected to runs 18s now?

the tire allowances of 275 for STU and (proposed) 265 for STX aren't manifest in an existing tire.  why doesn't the SEB/STAC base tire rules on tires that exist (or will soon)?

Because new sizes come out every single year?  You can't write the rules for "now".  You write them for the future and stablity.  Let's turn that argument around, who's to say that now with the 265 as the max size in a popular class, tire manufactures won't build 265s in smaller diameters?  Bridgestone has proven that they are quite aware of our little sport and I wouldn't be surprised it you saw a 265-17 RE-01R sometime soon if this proposal passes.

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Jason McCall #47 STU
'00 M Roadster - XP (under construction)

McCall:

shinronin:

andy, can you speak, unofficially of course, to the SEB/STAC logic of proposing 265s for STX when the only 265 option is a 265/35-18?  are 2WD STX cars really expected to runs 18s now?

the tire allowances of 275 for STU and (proposed) 265 for STX aren't manifest in an existing tire.  why doesn't the SEB/STAC base tire rules on tires that exist (or will soon)?

Because new sizes come out every single year?  You can't write the rules for "now".  You write them for the future and stablity.  Let's turn that argument around, who's to say that now with the 265 as the max size in a popular class, tire manufactures won't build 265s in smaller diameters?  Bridgestone has proven that they are quite aware of our little sport and I wouldn't be surprised it you saw a 265-17 RE-01R sometime soon if this proposal passes.

STU is a very popular class and yet we've been waiting for a competitive 275 17" tire for 2 years.  there isn't one.  i wrote rod at bridgestone about such a size last summer and he said there weren't plans for one, but he'd pass the request along.  i highly doubt doubt max sizes just for 2WD cars will come out for STX and STU all of a sudden.  toyo may produce a 275/45-17 r1r, but we don't know how fast it'll be.  i understand you argument jason, but the tire manufacturers aren't obliging and so 2WD participation in STU has suffered.

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Doug #81 STS2
1990 Mazda Miata
STU 2000 Audi S4 (retired)
STU 2005 Mazda RX-8 (retired)

STREET TOURING

• The SEB approved the addition of Pat Washburn to the STAC.
  
• The following listing change proposal has been provided by the STAC and is being published for member feedback:
• Add the BMW E46 M3 to class STU. (ref. 07-001)
  
• The following rule change proposals have been provided by the STAC and are being published for member feedback:
  
• Remove the word “single” from 14.12.3 in class STX. Note: this will allow any forced-induction configuration.
  
• Change 14.12.4 such that the maximum tire size is 265 and the maximum rim width is 9.0 inches, for 2WD (FWD
  or RWD) only.

Here's the actual text from this month's Fastrack about ST. The E46 M3 removal form STU exclusion list is logical, as we've pointed out elsewhere. The removal of "single" from forced induction cars allows many previously excluded twin turbo cars into STX and STU. Notably: the 135i and 335i BMWs and some Audis. None of these seem to be overdogs on paper.

The change to 14.12.4 is also a smart one - write your letters people! It never made sense to have a tire limit differential in STU between 2WD and AWD cars but not in STX. This gives the much... much lower powered 2WD cars a shot at balancing the class before more 2.0L WRX's are prepped to the limits and start to show the dominance that this model has in STX. Good stuff.

It also potentially paves the way for the move for an E36 M3 into STX, I feel. That's still debatable, but I think if the 325 and M3 were on the same size tire they'd be a lot closer than some folks believe. The M3 just isn't radically better than the 325/328, especially when all of the STX/STU legal mods are done to both.

Still, the most exciting part of the Fastrack was this about SP:

STREET PREPARED

• The SPAC is seeking member feedback on the following classing change proposals:
• Move from BSP to ASP, Subaru WRX STi and Mitsubishi Evo.
• Move from ASP to BSP, on a separate line from other models: BMW M Coupe, M Roadster, and Z3 (6-cyl) (ref. 07-448)

Woo! Smartest suggestions from the SEB in 2 years!!! My respect for whoever wrote these proposals just went way up.

Finally, some reasonable classing changes for a number of BMWs in SP? What is this world coming to... A good friend saw this and is already looking for an S54 powered M Coupe!

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Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com - www.ast-usa.com
'93 BMW E36-LS1 (XP/TTU), '91 BMW 318is (STS), '08 EVO X (STU/TTB)
Check out the SCCAForums Vorshlag Sub-Forum

Edit: whoops, wrong thread.

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John W: 2003 WRX (#7 STX) | 1998 ///M3
Washington, DC Region

reallybluegti:

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention.

W

R

X

That's the top dog in STX right now.

Hmm, at Nationals I counted five BMWs and four WRXs in the trophies, and Chris Fenter, who won the class convincingly for sure, earned the nickname "the robot". He took 8th in PAX while second place took 70th in PAX.

Trophy order:
WRX
BMW
BMW
WRX
WRX
BMW
BMW
BMW
WRX

So I guess I'm not seeing the WRX leading quite as convincingly. I'm not sure the M3 would be much better on the current STX tire restrictions, but I'm quite sure that as grip increases, the usability of power advantages increases, and the advantage of weight differences decreases.

My point is that (IMO) STX M3 = competitive, but STX M3 with wider tires = overdog.  

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STX? #313 | the rolling couch of doom | La-Z-Boy Racing

It seems that with all the talk of AWD WRXs and such and 2WD M3s that it could be a good thing to separate the AWD cars into their own class, especially with the array of AWD cars available today.

A few years ago the WRX & Evos in STX/STU may have been a good thing, with only a few makers building AWDs. That has changed dramatically since then. If the SCCA is really planning for the future (as with their tire rules) this would be a good start, lets not just change tire sizes in hopes of fixing a broken system. It goes much deeper than tire sizes, especially if the cars in class can't run the max for class! Stop putting band-aids on severed limbs!

How does STA sound to you guys? I'm sure there will still be plenty of competition for that class.This talk of tire size changes to compensate for obvious short-comings seems pointless when many cars can't run 265s or 275s....hell, I can't get 245s under my car without changing wheel offsets. There's no chance I'll get a 265 to fit!

Simple LOGIC tells (I mean screams) to me that an AWD car should spank any 2wd in class...on similar tires....or am I missing something? To put those 2 very different cars (AWD and 2WD) in the same class just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I suspect that mostly the newer cars can run 265s+, and sadly, this will likely phase out many of the older cars because they just won't be able to compete.  

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1987 BMW 535is - 3300 Pounds Of Flaming Dynamite - STX, AZ Region- #17

Appliance Racing (yeah, like your refrigerator....only louder) ;-)

1984 BMW M635 - #408

Question for Fair, or Hanchey, or McCall, or whomever has all the data logger info from all that STU testing. Did you ever test the same type of tire (bridgestone, falken, yok, whatever) in a 245 on one of the rally cars and a 265 on the M3? I'm curious how much the peak lateral g-force differed between the two tire widths. I know the car's they would be on are different as well, but if one of you folks has this info, could you post it? I'm just curious how much of a difference there was between a car on 245's and 265's of the same type tire, even if it wasn't the same car.

- Bret 

I will be writing my letter soon, but I am in total disagreement on the proposal to offer wider tires to 2WD in STX, especially to 265's.  I think it's much harder to speed up the 2WD's than it is to slow down the AWD's (WRX's mainly) especially with tire size.  Most FWD cars can't even maximize on the 245 tire and 8" wide wheel rule as it is now.  And as I understand, the BMW's have trouble maximizing 265's in STU now.  And lets not forget that this now increases the cost of competing in class...not a fan of that one.  Only benefit would be those looking to compete with a Mustang...oh wait, there aren't any.

 I just think this is the wrong direction to take STX.  Not that my opinion really matters.

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2006 Subaru WRX STi
Sponsored by AgileAuto.com
D.C./Philly Region - 3 STU
cardomain.com/id/piknockout

I have a hard time understanding how the E46M3 being put into the same class as the e36M3 is any better decision than putting the E36M3 with all the other E36s?  50hp difference in one case, or a 93hp difference the way it sounds like its going to go through  I also think that the E46's will have a lot easier time fitting more tire...  I think these rule changes will really make the e36 obsolete in stu

reallybluegti:

Jason,

Sorry if I came across to strong.  Yes, I understand that Andy is unofficial.  I have written letters to that address, and gotten nothing back. I'll try again. 

Obviously the M3 isn't moving.  We'll see how it does this year, with the new STi and Evo.  I'd be willing to bet there is exactly one 2wd car in STU at Nationals, and it won't be in the trophies.  And we'll see how STX evolves, with new cars like the 128i, Lancer Ralliart, and Audi TT-S (which might go to STU).  I'm actually really curious to see if wider tires on 2wd cars helps at all in STX.  Maybe the M3 will come up again in a couple of years.

Paul - *write your letters*!  Only one person processes them so it can take a little time to get a response, but the system fundamentally works.

As for your statement that the only STU 2wd car at Nationals won't be in the trophies, I gotta say I'm somewhat disappointed... but you could be right.  I think Max beat me last weekend, and it was on my own course!

Mike

Edited to add: nope, I just edged Max out.  The S.D. Tour should be entertaining. 

How about The RX-8 I think they should move it down to STX also.

msimanyi:

Paul - *write your letters*!  Only one person processes them so it can take a little time to get a response, but the system fundamentally works.

As for your statement that the only STU 2wd car at Nationals won't be in the trophies, I gotta say I'm somewhat disappointed... but you could be right.  I think Max beat me last weekend, and it was on my own course!

Mike

Edited to add: nope, I just edged Max out.  The S.D. Tour should be entertaining. 

 

Mike, I have and will continue to write letters.  Honestly, good luck.

I really do apologize for losing my temper and typing before thinking, esp to Andy, I was just disappointed that after all the back and forth on this forum, it wasn't put out for member comment.  Obviously the STAC didn't think it was a good idea, my side of the argument wasn't convincing enough.

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-Paul Andrews
# 42 STU Philly Region
98 Mostly White M3/4

ada///M:

I have a hard time understanding how the E46M3 being put into the same class as the e36M3 is any better decision than putting the E36M3 with all the other E36s?  50hp difference in one case, or a 93hp difference the way it sounds like its going to go through  I also think that the E46's will have a lot easier time fitting more tire...  I think these rule changes will really make the e36 obsolete in stu

You forgetting the 300lb or so difference as well as the lack of bottom end torque of the S54.

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Jason McCall #47 STU
'00 M Roadster - XP (under construction)

reallybluegti:

msimanyi:

Paul - *write your letters*!  Only one person processes them so it can take a little time to get a response, but the system fundamentally works.

As for your statement that the only STU 2wd car at Nationals won't be in the trophies, I gotta say I'm somewhat disappointed... but you could be right.  I think Max beat me last weekend, and it was on my own course!

Mike

Edited to add: nope, I just edged Max out.  The S.D. Tour should be entertaining. 

 

Mike, I have and will continue to write letters.  Honestly, good luck.

I really do apologize for losing my temper and typing before thinking, esp to Andy, I was just disappointed that after all the back and forth on this forum, it wasn't put out for member comment.  Obviously the STAC didn't think it was a good idea, my side of the argument wasn't convincing enough.

No apologies necessary Paul.  If someone isn't passionate about this stuff, they're probably lacking a pulse.  And thanks for the well-wishes.

Just a reminder for you and everyone else reading / commenting here: we - the STAC and SEB - officially consider those proposals, requests and comments submitted to seb@scca.com.  Comments on these forums don't enter into official play.
 
Your opinion *is* important and will be considered - trust me on this - carefully when submitted via e-mail.  There isn't any harm I can think of in responding to the proposal with "I'd really prefer Plan B."

Mike 

piknockout:

I will be writing my letter soon, but I am in total disagreement on the proposal to offer wider tires to 2WD in STX, especially to 265's.  I think it's much harder to speed up the 2WD's than it is to slow down the AWD's (WRX's mainly) especially with tire size.  Most FWD cars can't even maximize on the 245 tire and 8" wide wheel rule as it is now.  And as I understand, the BMW's have trouble maximizing 265's in STU now.  And lets not forget that this now increases the cost of competing in class...not a fan of that one.  Only benefit would be those looking to compete with a Mustang...oh wait, there aren't any.

 I just think this is the wrong direction to take STX.  Not that my opinion really matters.

Write your letter!  However, as a FWD driver I'd write it from that perspective.  It pretty obvious that the rule change does absolutely nothing for a FWD car in STX.

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Todd
Too many ST cars

"Restricted Area Racing"

reallybluegti:

 I was just disappointed that after all the back and forth on this forum, it wasn't put out for member comment.  Obviously the STAC didn't think it was a good idea, my side of the argument wasn't convincing enough.

That may not have been the case, keep in mind the time line... If the STAC did not have a call in that time they might have not known about it.

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Jason Isley
2005-2006-2007-2008 B Stock National Champion

Letter written, waiting for log number.  If I don't get one, I'll just re-send each week until I do.

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2006 Subaru WRX STi
Sponsored by AgileAuto.com
D.C./Philly Region - 3 STU
cardomain.com/id/piknockout

RX7 KLR:

reallybluegti:

 I was just disappointed that after all the back and forth on this forum, it wasn't put out for member comment.  Obviously the STAC didn't think it was a good idea, my side of the argument wasn't convincing enough.

That may not have been the case, keep in mind the time line... If the STAC did not have a call in that time they might have not known about it.

 Perhaps.  Regardless, my letter has been re-sent.  (originally sent 2/4)  And I'll send it again till it gets a log number.

Thanks,

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-Paul Andrews
# 42 STU Philly Region
98 Mostly White M3/4