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Sebastian R.:

What aren't you telling us Mike????

The no a/c grandfather clause expires by 2009 and a lot of cars prepped to the old STU rules have to either reinstall their a/c systems (no small feat if you have fully removed it!) or they become illegal.

Take-backs that are very labor intensive/expensive suck.

Terry, I feel your pain.  I competed in 2006 fully with my Red E36 M3 (Steve O'Blenes was my co-driver).  He won the San Diego National Tour, and he came in 2nd place at the Cal Club Pro Solo in Fontana.....in a monsoon!  That's supposedly the "pig-in-slop" conditions that AWD cars love and my car which was setup as is "default" with 450f/500 rear spring rate setup for SD was good but when in the dry it was just SOFT enough to be great at the launch.

At the time the AWD cars weren't developed and I was running 17x9, 255 all around on Yokohama Advan Neovas with 75% prep limit.  I was able match or even beat my co-driver on 60ft launch times on the right side.  Point is at the time I still felt the M3 had a fighting chance.  All it needed was a top-driver like O'Blenes (the winner of the Tour was Richard Jung in a Red Mitsubishi Evo and the STU regional champ here in Cal Club for 2007.  Max Hayter won in it in a Subaru WRX STi in 2006....seeing a pattern here?). 

And I also did the http://ploney.shackspace.com/pics/SCCA/Atwater/Atwater-3/slides/atwater-P5074849.html Atwater Pro Solo, with God as my co-driver (aka Bob Tunnell), and even with HIM he only managed 3rd place.  You can click on the "NEXT" button for 2 more pics of my former car (RIP).

But now?  Forget it.  Only my good friend (and fellow BMWCCA autox instructor Mike Simanyi) is going at it full-tilt.  I support him and will root for him to win, but if it's cold and a HINT of rain at HPT for Nationals?  Then I think you'd need ice-skates to go faster because in an M3 RWD, you're done.

As you can see it was healthy in 2005 and 2006.  But 2007?  Only 2 out of 47 drivers were M3s (not counting co-drivers).  Then this whole "let's put back the A/C".  Yeah that was smart! <sarcasm>  Now as for putting it into STX?  I personally would like that but not at the expense of driving away the WRXs.  I want a fair fight.  I don't want to go from underdog to overdog.  And for those that say "too bad you picked the wrong car for the class", I call B.S.  I bought the M3 way before I even KNEW what autocross was let alone SCCA.  I got into BMWCCA first then learned about autocross.  I will not play the game of "what's the hot car to win <fill in the blank> class for the year <fill in the year>.  I'm not made of money and if I was I wouldn't anyway.  I'd like stability in the ruleset.

Fantasyland would be........AWD cars have their own class, and FWD/RWD separate.  Yeah that'll happen! :rolleyes

Anyway, if you make it fair to some degree either in STX?  Or relax the ruleset in STU so we can have other things then perhaps, but 275mm cannot be done WITHOUT violating the other rule of no fender bending to fit.  It's like "the chicken before the egg".  We can fit 275mm BUT...can't mod the wheel well to do it.  Well then what's the point of 275?  <devil's advocate>  Get a Dodge Neon SRT-4 or a Mazda RX-8 that can fit them.  Yes I'm not playing that game.

Those are my thoughts.

Fair:

Chris Conant:

These boards are "Bench Racing" arnt they as it is all speculation until we try right?? The weight is insignificant compared to the power increase over the non ///M's. What do they (325/8's) put to the ground? And I believe (chime in here guys) they were using 235's and not 245's (i thought).  Even with the extra weight BMW wouldn't have done it if it didn't make a difference right? You wouldn't have a sunroof delete if it didn't matter right?

The heavier E36 M3 parts are there for longevity, reliability, strength. The rear trailing arms on the M are thicker. Does this make the M car faster? No. Does it make it stronger over time? That's my guess.

Chris Conant:

On the E30 M3 what does "Long in the teeth" mean?

I meant that the E30 M3 was getting OLD. They are starting to become maintenance nightmares with a lot of miles. What's the saying? "You can buy an E30 M3 for $15,000. If it costs $1000 used, plan on spending $14,000 repairing everything that's broken". I've seen this time and again - the lower cost finds always need a lot of work. This can be daunting to some racers. But these cars can still be fast, with the right mods and repairs.

Chris Conant:

I agree they are competitive in STX and would like to keep it that way. They are not competitive in any other class. Not competitive in CSP or SM. Most of the E30///M3 guys track them and don't run SCCA solo at all.

Well... again, not as many people are campaigning the E30M3 due to cost and time factors. I think an SMOD prepped E30 M3 could still be fast, but with a lot of power (a legal goal for SM) the rear suspension doesn't work so well anymore. And you cannot legally "fix" any of that in CSP or SM, as it requires changing the pick-up points just to be able to align the camber out back (what a mess!). This compromised rear suspension & rules problem has held the E30 back for a lot of classes, but for STX power levels and with a limited suspension travel I still think its viable. We are building an E30 for STS so I might be recanting this statement very soon if this car does as poorly as Andy predicts!

Chris Conant:

As Autocrossers some one picking a car wont consider the E30///M3 due to extreme cost ( i would like to have a half price exhaust like you have). They are now more expensive than a E36M3 and still going up in value due to only 5k brought here to the US and 50K+ e36's(///M3) brought here between 95/99. I'm out numbered

That's true, costs for these lower volume cars can get expensive. See my earlier point above. Completely custom exhausts tend to equalize in price, of course, but the rarer bits from the E30 M3 are getting harder to source. Anyone have some front E30 M3 5-lug hubs/spindles in their garage? I'll buy every one I can get my hands on!

 

Terry, Are you a part of E30 SIG? its like 900 strong world wide. A lot are on S14.net but some are not. They part out cars all the time. I will keep my eyes out for those parts.

Most of the expense on my car was making the wrong decision the first time. Like HR Sports instead of GC set up. Combine that with the rare car part avail expense you and i know  its a O $h##!

I bought my e30/// for $8,350 in 99 bone stock with 118K on it. That same condition of car now i think is about like you said 14k. OUCH

And i have no idea of the cost to reinstal my AC for 09. I have most of it. I dang near sold it all. That woulda co$t

 

 

 

So, my letter to the SEB from more than 2 weeks ago has yet to get a log number.  The STAC address failed.

Where do I send a letter to actually get a response?

(smart-ass replies not appreciated )

And I just read the March Fastrack. 

WTF happened to the E36 M3 to STX?  All I see is a proposal to change the tires and wheel widths for 2wd in STX.

Andy's question was about doing one of those options, not all three. (or both E36 M3 and wider tires)

Don't you think the E36 M3 would be a clear overdog if they allowed it in STX *and* gave it more tire?
 

murph1379:

Andy's question was about doing one of those options, not all three. (or both E36 M3 and wider tires)

Don't you think the E36 M3 would be a clear overdog if they allowed it in STX *and* gave it more tire?

So, why isn't there a proposal for member feedback discussing any of the other 2 options?

Do you think more tire will help any of the BMWs currently in the class?  They seem to want to use a shorter/lighter tire now because of gearing, why would they be faster on a taller/heavier tire/wheel combo?  The only car I could see benefiting from it is the 330i, which is very similar to the E36 M3.

And no, I don't think the M3 would be the clear overdog with big tires.  I still think the WRX is the car to beat.

I'm guessing the M3 to STX proposal is absent because Mike Simanyi is now the chair of the STAC, and he's stated on this forum that he thinks the M3 is still competitive in STU.  He's in the minority.

reallybluegti:

So, why isn't there a proposal for member feedback discussing any of the other 2 options?

I'm sure Andy could speak to that better than I could, but I'm guessing he didn't see as much support for that idea in this thread as the idea of widening tires.

Do you think more tire will help any of the BMWs currently in the class?  They seem to want to use a shorter/lighter tire now because of gearing, why would they be faster on a taller/heavier tire/wheel combo?  The only car I could see benefiting from it is the 330i, which is very similar to the E36 M3.

Well as Neal mentioned, he wasn't using the smaller tire for better gearing, they just really hadn't tested the wider tires. If he was close last year on 235's, where would he be next year on 255's?

Were there comments from other E36 STX drivers that did well at a regional level that I missed? 

I bet it would help the 330i, but it's really not that similar to the E36 M3, it's heavier and has less power. (not to mention much more expensive to prep for STX, as it needs a $4k diff) Given the same grip, do you choose the 2700# car with 190hp (325) or the 3100# car with 230hp? (330) Given my experience in DS, I'd probably go with the 325.

 Anyway, it's my opinion that the tire change could help more that just the BMW's, though the BMWs would probably still beat the other 2WD STX cars. 

 

I'm guessing the M3 to STX proposal is absent because Mike Simanyi is now the chair of the STAC, and he's stated on this forum that he thinks the M3 is still competitive in STU.  He's in the minority.

Bummer, dude.  

WOW! I've watched this thread long enough, I gotta speak up. There are just too many tears here....

As BIG a fan of BMWs as I am I don't have much sympathy for the E36 M3, it's stock 0-60 times and HP numbers are far better than my appliance (87 BMW 535is) and most everything else in STX!! I am looking forward to running against an E36 M3 that is STX or STU legal. The only E36 M3 that has been at the track when I was there was in Open SM and he beat me by a second (on a 50 second track). Looking at some of the cars that I run with in STX, the E36 M3 is clearly the better car. 

Here are the latest local results, you'll have to scroll way down to the NV3 catagory to find any STX classed cars: http://www.azsolo.com/results.html  

The rather simple solution to the tire size issue is to reduce the tire sizes on the M3s competition to level the playing field in STU......if you can't fit the size limit for STU there should be allowances for that.

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention.

W

R

X

That's the top dog in STX right now.  It's just as fast 0-60 as the M3, if that's what you want to measure.  I don't think the M3 will go faster than the WRX.  I don't think it deserves to be on the STX exclusion list.  And if I could get a freakin log number from national, I'd tell them so.  The tire size experiment has been tried in STU, it didn't help the 2wd cars enough.

reallybluegti:

I'm guessing the M3 to STX proposal is absent because Mike Simanyi is now the chair of the STAC, and he's stated on this forum that he thinks the M3 is still competitive in STU.  He's in the minority.

That is not just his opinion, he proved that it is true at Nationals and many other events last year. 

 

I'm guessing the M3 to STX proposal is absent because Mike Simanyi is now the chair of the STAC, and he's stated on this forum that he thinks the M3 is still competitive in STU.  He's in the minority.

You're guessing wrong.  Just because he is the chair doesn't mean his thoughts carry more weight than anyone else on the STAC.  And FWIW, he's definitely not in the minority in that circle.

And just because it may not be a top car in STU does not mean the STX apple-cart should be upset.  STX has its problems and adding the E36 M3 to it right now would just compound these.

Maybe I should explain my ignorance here since I've only just re-entered auto-xing after a 25 year time-out.

First off not many cars run STX here. In the 4 events I've run in since restarting (only 3 on decent tires) I've seen the experienced drivers in BSP and SM WRX Sti's turning times 3-5 seconds faster than me, but that should be expected with the added mods and better rubber and 2 extra wheels to provide power to the pavement. Since putting some Falken RT615s on (3 races on these) and adding camber plates (set at 1.3 degree street settings) and only 1 race on them I've managed to put my 535is on top of NV3 for 2 straight months, and I am not maxed out on tires or wheels. In STX here I run against a few Subarus, Mazda Speed 3s and Nissan Sentra Se-R Spec Vs.

I really don't care so much about who's faster right now, but it is nice to see (supposedly) superior cars in higher classes with slower times. I just got the car set up so I haven't even run 3 races on new softer rubber and only one race with my camber plates. There is plenty of room for improvement in the car and my driving. The thing I am most grateful for is that I have finally found out what my car is going to do if I ever have to respond to an emergency situation on the road.....auto-xing has been such a great teacher! 
 

reallybluegti:

And I just read the March Fastrack. 

WTF happened to the E36 M3 to STX?  All I see is a proposal to change the tires and wheel widths for 2wd in STX.

A post from a past SEB member, Andy, on an non-SCCA forum, does not mean you are going to see something in FasTrack. That was him asking a question on his own, nothing more.  As is the case with any post on a forum from any board member, current or not.

p.s. only place to send a letter is seb@scca.com, one person covers them all, so if you don't get a reply send it again.  

reallybluegti:

I'm guessing the M3 to STX proposal is absent because Mike Simanyi is now the chair of the STAC, and he's stated on this forum that he thinks the M3 is still competitive in STU.  He's in the minority.

Most of the time the chair does not get a vote.

Otto Krosse:

 ...... but it is nice to see (supposedly) superior cars in higher classes with slower times.

No offense meant to you, or anyone in your region, but when trying to guage performance, people tend to not compare cars until there are known entities behind the wheel.  Local results can often be a little mixed up due to the driver factor.  I think we all routinely see the same thing in our local regions...SS Vette's get beat by HS Mini's and the like.  It happens locally.  Hard to say that without coming off as insulting your drivers, so don't take it wrong!  :) 

Reviewing past Tour and Championship results is a good start in figuring out where things stand.  (Take each event's results with a grain of salt too, don't read too much into any single event.)

Welcome back after such a long break.  Hope you have fun!!  (I love your 5)

Jason,

Sorry if I came across to strong.  Yes, I understand that Andy is unofficial.  I have written letters to that address, and gotten nothing back. I'll try again. 

Obviously the M3 isn't moving.  We'll see how it does this year, with the new STi and Evo.  I'd be willing to bet there is exactly one 2wd car in STU at Nationals, and it won't be in the trophies.  And we'll see how STX evolves, with new cars like the 128i, Lancer Ralliart, and Audi TT-S (which might go to STU).  I'm actually really curious to see if wider tires on 2wd cars helps at all in STX.  Maybe the M3 will come up again in a couple of years.

Patrick,

 
No offense taken, your take on this seems pretty spot-on! Driver disparity certainly plays a factor, I realize that I can't get too excited about all of what I see in our local results, especially since there are so few cars in STX. 

With my comments I'm actually giving my car a lot more of the credit than I deserve. It's truly been a surprise to see how well the 5er does at something it really wasn't made for....and it's still a great daily driver. I hope to enlist a hot-shoe to ride along this next race so I can get input from someone with a lot more experience than I have. Since November I have dropped about 5-7 seconds by adding the tires and camber plates. Getting advice, more seat time and experience with these tires should improve my times a little more.

So far it's been a lot more than fun......it's been kind of orgasmic (I know, too much information), I drive home after each race with an ear to ear smile. 

We do have some very experienced drivers in our 120+ car fields and many have been doing this a very long time. About 15-20 local cars are going out to the big SD race in March, we'll see how they do there. 

(BTW, thanks for the comment about the 5er!!) 

Hey Gang before i post this i do want to make a point of saying that I certainly don't want to offend anyone. Especially fellow BMW Club members. I want to make it clear that we can agree to dis agree with no ill feelings what so ever. (opinions are like arm pits and everyone has 2 including myself right?)

 That being said. I made a statement. That I heard that the E36///M3 had or could have up to 270HP with some simple modifications (or what ever). So some of you didn't agree with that which is expected. Some say the E36///M3 is heavier which is true (say 150#'s?). So I made this statement which is what I have actually heard (not in a post and probably at a BMW meeting somewhere) but that comment was made to be disproved. So there has been a lot of you all saying that the car doesn't have that kind of horse power but we have yet to see the dyno charts. Not only that,,,, we would also need dyno charts that actually compare the current competitive E36 325's (which holds multiple trophy spots in 07) vs E36///M3 keeping in mind the E36///M3 is a tad heavier. So in a nut shell this is all speculation/here say (including my statement) unless we can get a good comparison of real data right? either way it goes we should compare the 2 cars. The bummer would be is if there isn't any dyno charts that are actually comparable. Comparing a E36///M like Terry's car and another car like what Tovsen drove in ST prep. I suspect a significant difference. It would be interesting if we could compare apples with apples.

I had a 95//M3 and AX'd it a bit (as well as others). I have driven multiple E36 325's in AX's and I personally feel the E36///M3 takes it every time (with similar setups). So I stand by my opinion that the e36///M3 is an over-dog for STX class. And I really don't think the tire size restrictions are going to help or limit that car. The E36///M3 is a truly amazing car and one of the best multipurpose cars BMW ever made.

have a good one, 

RX7 KLR:

reallybluegti:

And I just read the March Fastrack. 

WTF happened to the E36 M3 to STX?  All I see is a proposal to change the tires and wheel widths for 2wd in STX.

A post from a past SEB member, Andy, on an non-SCCA forum, does not mean you are going to see something in FasTrack. That was him asking a question on his own, nothing more.  As is the case with any post on a forum from any board member, current or not.

p.s. only place to send a letter is seb@scca.com, one person covers them all, so if you don't get a reply send it again.  

 

Just to add to this...

Go re-read my original post (first in the thread).  I was trying to gather info.  Pros/cons.  What are the data points, the hard facts?  It was all fact-finding and it did provide some useful info (amidst lots of noise).  Just because a thread may end up seeming to go a certain way means nothing in terms of official proposals.  Especially because there is only a small sampling of our membership who have the time and inclination to post here.

Its ironic because in the past the SEB and various ACs have been crucified publicly for putting out proposals that seemed not to have been well thought through.  And now the opposite happens here...

--Andy