SCCAForums.com

DaveMc:

Steve Hoelscher:

 

I haven't investigated the tires on Bob's car but I doubt they were anything "unavailable to anyone else".  I have worked closely with Hoosier for more than 10 years, I know how they work and that isn't Hoosier's practice.  Did you call Hoosier and talk to them about what was available?  

 

 

 

Yes. I talked to Jeff at Hoosier and he said "No, we are not going to make an R25 in 16" sizes". Bob, Ron V and Sam P all had 16"s in a 25, but they are not "nobodys".

 I disagree that the A6 is faster than the slick or vice versa. I believe a car could be set up to be equally fast on either, but the set ups would be radically different.

This thread to an interesting turn, but I would like to congratulate Bob on his superior driving, superior car and superior tires (but like I said before, I believe he would have won on just about any tire).

I want to make it clear, I am not taking ANYTHING away from Bob's driving.  I watched him drive, he did a great job.  Although there are no tire availability rules, it is a bit frustrating thinking you know your options and in reality you don't.  All that said, my car couldn't turn and that was the suspension setup for the tires that I did have.  As far as heartless, I stand by what I said and say also that the Venue should be worthy of a nationals competition.  Each of us spent thousands of dollars to get and say there, and paid a large entry fee(although the site is donated to the SCCA for the event), we deserve and excellent surface.  Failing that, aggressive measures to make or keep the site as good as possible are a good idea. 

 

Really guys, all this complaining about tires seems a little obsurd to an outsider like me.  Are these tires really THAT good?!? It sounds like he trounced the whole class, which wouldnt be just a tire thing.  maybe if you guys are within a couple of tenths, then a double secret exclusive tire might make a difference.  I mean, 2 seconds is the difference between all seasons and r-comps for god sakes.  Maybe he just outdrove you guys, I know he would have me by at least 3 ;)

Howdy,

Jazzie604:

Really guys, all this complaining about tires seems a little obsurd to an outsider like me.  Are these tires really THAT good?!? It sounds like he trounced the whole class, which wouldnt be just a tire thing.  maybe if you guys are within a couple of tenths, then a double secret exclusive tire might make a difference.  I mean, 2 seconds is the difference between all seasons and r-comps for god sakes.  Maybe he just outdrove you guys, I know he would have me by at least 3 ;)

 

I don't think anyone is debating whether or not Tunnell (or Ron V, or any of the other drivers who occasionally get special tires) is an excellent driver who deserved to win.

 

What people are debating is whether or not its smart to have a rule that allows folks to have an advantage that another competitor _cannot_ get.  Not can't afford btw (which is common in motorsports), but just flat out can't get for love or money.  And to have it be tires is even worse... At least if its a normal hard part on the car you have the option to develop one yourself.  But tires?  Not hardly.

I don't think that's appropriate for a grassroots motorsport.  I don't really like it even in pro level motorsports.  And, with regards to tires specifically, lots of those pro motorsports are moving away from prototype tyres also!  Witness CART, F1, World Superbike, NASCAR, and others.  And the trend is more towards that than away (MotoGP is apparently considering a spec tire rule for next year as well).

 

Mark

Howdy,

Here's the text of my letter to the SEB on this subject.  Please write in and tell them what you think!

Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:46:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Andy <mark@sccaprepared.com>
To: seb@scca.com
Subject: Tire availability in Prepared (and possibly Mod)

Howdy,

Per the internet scuttlebutt, Bob Tunnell won the XP national championship,
while running on tires that weren't available to the general public.  This
is the first time that I've seen credible evidence of a rules problem I've
noticed for years... The lack of any wording regarding tire availabilty in
the Prepared ruleset.

I'm writing to suggest that some rules be put in place to ensure that all
competitors in a particular Prepared (and potentially Mod) class have equal
access to tire models and sizes.  The stock class rules sections 13.3.B and
13.3.D could be adapted to the Prepared class fairly easily, and would even
make a nice stand-alone section for all categories if worded like:

--------------------

For divisional, tour, prosolo, and nationals competition, no tire models
will be approved for competition during the rest of the year after April 30
of each calendar year. Each eligible tire model must meet all tire
requirements for the particular class/category by April 30, and must
continue to meet them thereafter.

A tire model will normally be determined by the designation in the Tire
Guide or manufacturer's sales literature. However, any of the following
changes or similar changes (as determined by the SEB) will also be
considered to represent a new model for eligibility purposes, even if the
designation does not change: change of tread pattern at either full or
partial tread depth; characterization by the manufacturer or distributor of
a tire as new; significant change in compound or construction.

A tire model which was previously allowed by these rules continues to be
legal until specifically disallowed. This follows years of precedence on
eligibility for discontinued tire models. If a manufacturer reintroduces a
tire model which was previously discontinued, that tire will be considered a
new model for the purposes of these rules.

Within each tire model, the sizes which are available must be
equally available to all competitors. Tire model variations differing
from standard specification, delivered only on a limited basis,
or only to selected competitors, may not be used.

Tire models must be available via US distribution channels.

----------------

You'll notice the addition of "significant change in compound or
construction" in there.  This is intended to allow manufacturers to make
minor running changes to compounds (as they reportedly do, without name
differences), without allowing the introduction of a brand new
compounding/construction as apparently happened at nationals this year with
the R25B Hoosier.

You'll also notice that I've restricted these availability rules to
divisional & above events, so that tire manufacturers and competitors that
have the desire can test tires at regional events (unless the region adopts
the rule as well).

Finally, you'll notice that I added that tires must be available via US
distribution channels.  This was unneccesary in the DOT-R rules, because the
tires were required to be DOT certified.  However, a restriction like this
must be in place for classes which allow non DOT tires.

Please consider this change or one similar to it, particular keeping in mind
the following partial quotes from the solo 2 rulebook:

2.3 Core Values:
"The SEB's decisions are based upon three core values that together
equate with member value. These core values are as follows:
increased participation and involvement, providing a variety of
classes to satisfy a range of economies and commitments, and
evolving rules in a planned manner. Each topic before the SEB is
compared to these core values to ensure an overall positive effect.
It is recognized that an individual decision may at times result in a
disadvantage or increased cost to some individual members, but that
the decision reached is based on the long-term benefit for the
majority of the members."

From the Prepared rules preamble: "The rules shall discourage the use of
high technology/high cost equipment."

Unlike most other parts on a car, a motivated and knowledgable competitor
cannot design and/or fabricate their own tires.  Accordingly, access to
tires needs to be regulated.  In comparison, Modified and Prepared's ban on
traction control systems and ABS, presumably due to cost concerns, seems a
bit silly. Both ABS and traction control systems are _much_ more accessible
to an enthusiast than tire production and arguably provide less potential
performance benefit.

Allowing access to "special" tires for some drivers is at best a bit of a PR
nightmare for our sport.  At worst, it allows the tire companies to decide
who the championship to go to.  Please consider making this long overdue
change.

Mark Andy
#266492

Mark
 

DaveMc,

 I would like to take you up on offer to forward XP pictures from last nationals including Tunnell's car.

Send them to randyherrick@aol.com.

 Thanks much,

 Randy