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area under the curve

Last post 08-16-2008, 12:39 AM by SStrokerAce. 50 replies.
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  •  07-16-2008, 12:43 PM 310497 in reply to 310419

    Re: area under the curve

    I seem to be failing at communicating the important points. So I'll try again :

    Torque in of itself as a number (or area under a torque curve - by definition a single number, the numerical integral of the torque curve) as a figure of merit of an engine is utterly useless without information as to the rpm at which that torque was measured. Two motors with identical "area under the torque curve" might have wildly different performance in a given chassis. You must specify the rpm at which the torque is measured to have any idea how "strong" a motor is. Conveniently we have this thing called power that does that :) Still can't see the reluctance to use it!

    If you specify a motor makes 500ft-lbs - in theory it could be any possible horsepower. If it makes 500hp you know how fast it will accelerate your chassis at any speed (-drag of course). You have no clue with just torque. If you include the RPM at which the torque was measured... you effectively are using the hp in the calculation, without ever calling it by its proper name.


    I think everyone agrees single measurements of either hp or torque are inadequate to describe an engine (although with a single hp # you can fully describe the performance of a chassis connected to a CVT, with torque you have nothing - hence the better descriptive power of hp), and want to use some number calculated from the curve. The integral seems like an obvious choice. Any time you are going to be taking the integral of either a torque or hp curve, you need to specify the operating range of RPM. In "race" mode the widest possible range is usually the rpm drop from 1st gear revlimit to 2nd gear.  When you shift at revlimit in 1st the rpm in 2nd is = revlimit*(gear#2 ratio/ gear#1 ratio).  This defines the "range" over which the hp/torq of the engine is relevant to performance. Perhaps the lower rpm should be extended lower than this as its unlikely you will downshift to get 100rpm worth of 1st gear!

    For street driving you typically don't revlimit shift, and the rpm range is both lower and in a wider ratio. In this case the integral needs to be performed over this wider range. Motors with narrow peaky powerbands will suffer under this metric as the example several posts ago shows.

    Whether the Torque number is derived from the observable HP on a dyno or not, I think it's a more valuable number. Since the HP number is simply the amount of torque multiplied by the rpm, a number that distills the area under the HP curve is going to tend to show more favorable numbers for engines with less torque that rev longer. (say an S2000)

     The S2000 motor will have a excellent hp integral over the ratio of rpm used in racing. No surprise, this is an awesome motor. It will have a decent number even over the wide rpm ratio. The problem isn't with the S2000 engine, its with the S2000 chassis, its too heavy for a "small" motor. That motor in a 1800lb chassis would be considered more than "torquey" (actually people would wet themselves over its torque). However a larger displacement slower-revving motor could easily have a higher hp integral.

    Performing the integral over a ratio of rpm is superior to performing it over actual rpm due to the speed effects described a few posts above. For example performing integral from 2000-4000rpm is wider (in speed) than from 4000-6000rpm, despite covering the same # rpm. The ratio is the important information as that describes the speeds covered in each gear.

    Any single number that describes the engines low-speed performance is not really applicable to racing, and any single number that describes the engine in the range used while racing isn't descriptive on how it is on the street. There is no way to "compress" the information into a single number that does both. The hp integral over ratio of rpm "of interest" however is a decent figure of merit for an engine, either street driving ratio (large) or racing (as narrow as your gearbox).

     

     

  •  07-16-2008, 2:24 PM 310520 in reply to 310497

    Re: area under the curve

    A quick example of the "power" of the "hp"(sorry pun intended) analysis vs torque. On page#1 a list of torq vs rpm was shown for a motor and DaveH (love your electric Amod - I've thought about same thing) ended up calculating the acceleration in G's you'd feel on average in 2nd gear after quite a few lines of math involving gearing/tires etc.

     6000 RPM 320RWTQ corresponds to 366hp if you had the dyno print HP.  Just to do a quick estimate of G's plug into my above formula solved for a - at the speed the car is going in 2nd gear at 6000rpm. You could just guess 65mph as a reasonable guess (right answer is 68 given the tires "assumed").

    a = 365*hp / (w*s)  = 365*366 / (3400*65) =  0.604g  - that was pretty easy no? You need to carry around all the tire/size - gear ratio - final drive info to do the analysis via torque, but if you know hp at a given speed you immediately know how much "kick" it will give you.

    That's why its easier (not better just easier). 



     

  •  07-30-2008, 3:37 PM 313016 in reply to 310520

    Re: area under the curve

    If all you want or need is a single number that you can use for quick and dirty estimates of performance over any number of unspecified speed ranges, some sort of average torque seems more appropriate, the reason being that most engines are closer to being constant torque machines than constant power devices. I think that's what the OP was getting at.

    If you want anything that's more useful than that, you should be working toward the solution of a real-world problem with real hardware that might not be perfectly optimizable to your specific situation instead of just making conversational comparisons.  In that case, since acceleration is NOT constant, the only single numbers that will mean anything will be elapsed times between speeds, or the distances required to do so, or the times to distance.  That puts you all the way back to integrating the more general formula (and iterating shift point speeds as necessary).  Step-wise integration in a spreadsheet is one approach with either an equation that's been curve-fit to the torque output or looked up and interpolated from the dyno torque results directly.  You can probably even fit a reasonably good equation in many cases just from the peak HP and torque figures and their respective rpm values.

    {  [Gearing] * [Torque] * [Powertrain Efficiency] - [Total Drag] } / { [Drive Tire Loaded Radius] * [Total Weight plus consistent Rotational Inertia Effects] }

    or

    {  [Gearing] * [Torque - Torque lost to consistent Rotational Accelerations] * [Powertrain Efficiency] - [Total Drag] } / { [Drive Tire Loaded Radius] * [Total Weight] }

     

    Norm

     


    seat time is where you find it (semi-retired) weenie CP '79 Malibu, (no longer ST/SP legal) '95 626
  •  08-14-2008, 9:20 AM 315519 in reply to 313016

    Re: area under the curve

    Back to the electric drive train.

    I believe that traction control is not allowed in Amod. I do not know how you would do an electric drive train with out traction control. But I for one would support your efforts to change the rules, after all Amod should be about innovation. Also. the rest of us could also use traction control. By the way, a CVT really does most of what you are talking about. On acceleration the engine will rev to it’s power band and then the CVT changes the gearing. The main adjustments are: max engine RPM, engagement speed, and rate of speed for up and down gearing changes. With my car, data shows acceleration at a steady state of 1.4g on blacktop.

    Stanley

  •  08-14-2008, 10:21 AM 315536 in reply to 315519

    Re: area under the curve

    lightning:

    Back to the electric drive train.

    I believe that traction control is not allowed in Amod. I do not know how you would do an electric drive train with out traction control. But I for one would support your efforts to change the rules, after all Amod should be about innovation. Also. the rest of us could also use traction control. By the way, a CVT really does most of what you are talking about. On acceleration the engine will rev to it’s power band and then the CVT changes the gearing. The main adjustments are: max engine RPM, engagement speed, and rate of speed for up and down gearing changes. With my car, data shows acceleration at a steady state of 1.4g on blacktop.

    Dave and I were discussing this recently.  I think that a better definition of traction control would be/is needed.  From the rules, it looks like a closed loop system that detects wheelslip and reduces power is the only thing that is disallowed.  You could, however, make changes to power parameters between runs.  Is having a system that detects steering angle and modifies power based on that "traction control" as long as there is no "on course" feedback?  Is that "predicting oversteer" as is stated in the rule book? 


    Rob Leone

    '07 Solstice GXP in AS
    '87 Toyota Corolla in EP
    ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.
  •  08-14-2008, 10:59 AM 315548 in reply to 315536

    Re: area under the curve

    To me, traction control is a closed-loop system that detects wheel slip and changes power to compensate.  An electric drive that limits delivered torque by limiting current isn't really controlling traction, it just has an adjustable torque curve.  If you can smoke the tires, it isn't traction control.

    I think the no-traction-control rule in A-Mod is an attempt to make sure the mechanical engineers win instead of the controls engineers.  If they opened that rule up you could do some incredible things with an electric drivetrain.  Individual drive control, steering angle input, traction control, launch control, active yaw control, hell, you could measure where the driver is looking and have the car try to drive there.


    Dave Heinig

    07 GXP Z0K (Thanks Rob!)
  •  08-14-2008, 11:30 AM 315560 in reply to 315548

    Re: area under the curve

    One year at the Long Beach Grand Prix, Ford took datalog traces of Michael Andretti's laps and sent them to engineers in Detroit.  In Detroit, they programmed their engine dyno with the loads measured in Michael's datalogs.  They then created an "open-loop" traction control that looked at what gear the car was in, and would not allow the crankshaft to accelerate above a certain rate.  They tested and refined the software on the engine dyno overnight and sent new software to the team in Long Beach the next morning.  They didn't have any wheel sensors, they were just measuring crankshaft RPM and limiting the rate of crankshaft acceleration.

    Honda and Toyota drivers complained that they could hear Andretti's car misfiring, but he was pulling away from them.  Honda and Toyota officials complained to ChampCar and Ford was told to remove that feature.

    Scott


    My playground is a parking lot
    '99 BMW M3 Convertible
    http://www.questfortech.org
  •  08-14-2008, 12:11 PM 315569 in reply to 315560

    Re: area under the curve

    ComBIRDable:
    Honda and Toyota drivers complained that they could hear Andretti's car misfiring, but he was pulling away from them.  Honda and Toyota officials complained to ChampCar and Ford was told to remove that feature.

    This is exactly what we are talking about.  Except with an electronic drivetrain, you would be talking about only one gear and could possibily/probabily make adjustments between runs.  Or even have a dial-a-torque knob/buttons on the steering wheel for seat of the pants driver adjustment. 

     So, is an open loop adjustable torque curve based on things other than wheelslip traction control? 


    Rob Leone

    '07 Solstice GXP in AS
    '87 Toyota Corolla in EP
    ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.
  •  08-14-2008, 1:45 PM 315594 in reply to 315569

    Re: area under the curve

    SpyderVenom:

    ComBIRDable:
    Honda and Toyota drivers complained that they could hear Andretti's car misfiring, but he was pulling away from them.  Honda and Toyota officials complained to ChampCar and Ford was told to remove that feature.

    This is exactly what we are talking about.  Except with an electronic drivetrain, you would be talking about only one gear and could possibily/probabily make adjustments between runs.  Or even have a dial-a-torque knob/buttons on the steering wheel for seat of the pants driver adjustment. 

     So, is an open loop adjustable torque curve based on things other than wheelslip traction control? 

    Conservative interpretation would be that it is, as it is using one or more implied relations between that which is being measured and the existence (or likelihood) of wheelspin to avoid the wheelspin on a real-time basis.  You'd be on much more solid ground with some means of fixing the upper limit on torque output in either paddock or grid, as that could be considered the electric car equivalent of tinkering with timing and ignition advance curves on its ICE powered counterpart.  I wouldn't count on getting anything more extensive than a two-position dial-a-torque setup though  Wink

    Norm


    seat time is where you find it (semi-retired) weenie CP '79 Malibu, (no longer ST/SP legal) '95 626
  •  08-14-2008, 7:55 PM 315692 in reply to 315594

    Re: area under the curve

    Norm Peterson:
    SpyderVenom:
    So, is an open loop adjustable torque curve based on things other than wheelslip traction control? 

    Conservative interpretation would be that it is, as it is using one or more implied relations between that which is being measured and the existence (or likelihood) of wheelspin to avoid the wheelspin on a real-time basis.  You'd be on much more solid ground with some means of fixing the upper limit on torque output in either paddock or grid, as that could be considered the electric car equivalent of tinkering with timing and ignition advance curves on its ICE powered counterpart.  I wouldn't count on getting anything more extensive than a two-position dial-a-torque setup though  Wink

    Norm

    Traction Control:  A system that adjusts engine power, braking force, or torque distribution when wheelspin, understeer, or oversteer is detected or predicted.

    The above is the actual rulebook definition.  It sounds like it is defining a closed loop system whereby the computer adjusts power pased on observed criteria.  I think the line gets blurred when you start talking about varying power based on an implied relationship (steering angle and power) vs. a measured relationship (slip angle and power). 

    Maybe I'll send an email off tonight...


    Rob Leone

    '07 Solstice GXP in AS
    '87 Toyota Corolla in EP
    ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.
  •  08-16-2008, 12:39 AM 316012 in reply to 315692

    Re: area under the curve

    In simple terms yes area under the HP curve is what is imporant, or like has been said you can do it with TQ but it's a multiplied factor at the tires that counts and it's harder to get that figure.

    Now the other problem here is that just more average HP doesn't always accelerate the car quicker, which is the overall key here. Acceleration! The actual shape of the curve is vital to that, and even areas lower than the curve that are not used are vital to the acceleration rate of the engine/car. That seems like a odd concept but actual testing as proven otherwise. Also there are some other odd issues with all of this like transient response of a motor/car. There are some very interesting bits of data that NASCAR releases every year when they do chassis dyno testing of the top car of each make at superspeedways and other tracks. They will give a average TQ, HP and then a acceration time, suprisingly the quickest acceleration times don't correspond with the highest average HP/TQ numbers... that is where all of this turns from simple to complex.

    In the end published data on acceleration tests of vehicles is the best way to determine car performance in that area, only issue we have is how does that relate to corner exit speed?

    Bret


    Bret
    Camaro SS FS
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