SCCAForums.com

Well I had a detailed and inteligent thread typed out last night.  But then firefox decided to freeze once I opened up a .pdf file on scca.com!  Imagine that!  Anyway.  After a couple requests I think that this subject deserves not only a seperate thread, but more attention that it would get in the annals of the BSP thread.  I will include the disclaimer I wrote last night just so that everyone who reads this will know that I have the proper intentions and am in no way trying to propose a Colesque revolution.

Instead of re-typing everything from last night, I'll just copy and paste what I had in the BSP thread.  And edit it for grammatical errors.  And finally reply to the many questions I'm sure will come up. 

ratt_finkel:

Well it took me about 2 days of off and on reading to finally get through this thread.  I've seen a lot of moaning and groaning.  A lot of interesting comments.  And very little real, OR tangible solutions.  I have no serious dog in this fight.  But have considered running in SP within the next 3 years.  Hopefully sooner.  A few things I'd like to mention that I don't think have been covered yet.

 Assuming that the Evo and STI go to ASP (Sorry STI guys, build me a half-way decent car and I'll put in on the stage).  What happens if the rally cars start winning ASP by large margins?  What if Mr. Berry puts 1.4 on Junior next year?  Where do they go then?

 And what happens if they are hopelessly outclassed and struggle or don't make the trophies at all?

 Maybe they will perfectly mesh with the rest of ASP and everyone will be happy.  I mean, that was the plan with BSP right?

 

Either way, I think that Street Prepared is time for a complete overhaul.  There are too few classes and too much disparity for it to last through this dynamic and progressive automotive climate.

There are NUMEROUS cars that would make full classes AND be fun to drive.  But are completely shunned by our current classing system.  My SP plans have been put on hold because from my perspective the rules are too unstable, and I'm hoping that something will change before I make that much of a resource investment.  But that's besides the point.

I really think it's time to update SP to the 21st century.  Allowing open boost control was a good 1st step.  But it's one small step among many.

I'd like to see the SP classes resemble common and effective mods that the average car nut would attempt to make his car "better".  You can call it ST on steroids.  But they had the right idea.  And we now have 4 ST classes developed in what, 5-6 years?  They are filling the grid, competition is close and there's no sign of slowing down.

 
It's already been mentioned that SP is not bringing on new blood.  So why is that?  What can we do to change that?  Honestly, shuffling a few cars here and there, giving some allowances to some cars (cams, etc for N/A vehicles)

or trying to add a a couple new rules is not going to accomplish the task.  I'd love to build an ESP WRX.  I think it could win the class my a good margin.  I'd love to build a DSP 2.5RS, I think it too has the ability to win.  But I wouldn't port match my exhaust ports, or build a custom intake manifold.  Or even blueprint my engine.  For all that, I could be well on my way to a competitive SM car.

Street Prepared should be just that.  A logical progression from stock class.  Ignore ST, it is its own beast.  But improve your car from stock form.  You've been racing it for 3 years.  You've got a couple trophies and you're ready to take it to the next level.  Street Prepared looks attractive.  You can solve your camber issues.  Run huge wheels and tires.  Instead of the crappy 7" wheels your car came with.  You can slap on some bling bling coilovers and dial the car in just right.  Heck, you can even throw in a nice clutch and flywheel combo too!  If you're lucky, there should be some nice gains from your new intake, header and dyno tunning as well.

Sounds great.  But there are many areas that you can still improve on, again, a natural progression to making you and your CAR better.

Someone mentioned bumpsteer correction and changing ball joints for improved suspension geometry.  This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.  A super cheap mod that has immediate effects on the performance of the car.  And hey!  You didn't have to spend 5k getting an extra 12whp out of your miata!

That's all I've got for now.  Flame away old men.
 

http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/273846.aspx

A few of us just hashed out a scenario where classing is done by speed. Progression from class to class would be so much easier.

Another problem is the rules. I just got done talking with Doug Gill last night about ECU's and wording around them in SP.  Absolutely ridiculous that a "ECU's are unrestricted" can't just be added in there. And that's just one example.

SCCA needs to stop pus*y footing around about the rules and classing and fix it and keep it fixed instead of letting things get antiquated before fixing them. And that's why waiting for letters to fix things is a horrible way to work the system. 

Some people that have "the car" for SP classes will say there's nothing wrong. 

Jojoo:

http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/273846.aspx

A few of us just hashed out a scenario where classing is done by speed alone. Progression from class to class would be so much easier.

Classing by speed alone does not work.  You seem to miss that point every time someone mentions it - see various posts about ES and FS posting similar times but having vastly different cars.  You also miss the points where people ask you WHO DETERMINES when a car goes too fast for a class.  In the case where a car has proven to be fast and must be moved up - you have instantly obsoleted that persons investment.  In SP classes that can be substantial ($30k+ in modifications).  So people are left with building cars that must be fast - but not too fast - and would encourage sandbagging at the highest levels as to not lose their $30k+ investments. 

SpyderVenom:

Jojoo:

http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/273846.aspx

A few of us just hashed out a scenario where classing is done by speed alone. Progression from class to class would be so much easier.

Classing by speed alone does not work.  You seem to miss that point every time someone mentions it - see various posts about ES and FS posting similar times but having vastly different cars.  You also miss the points where people ask you WHO DETERMINES when a car goes too fast for a class.  In the case where a car has proven to be fast and must be moved up - you have instantly obsoleted that persons investment.  In SP classes that can be substantial ($30k+ in modifications).  So people are left with building cars that must be fast - but not too fast - and would encourage sandbagging at the highest levels as to not lose their $30k+ investments. 

 

You might need to go back and read that thread. I answered every question thrown at me. Obviously the SEB determines if a car needs to be moved with input from members as well.

You have missed my answering the same question you posed again (go back and read). NO ONE would need to go buy a new car. They would simply have more competition.

Sandbagging is a total joke. No one would be able to because you'd have more competition. I'd love to see a car and driver so fast now a days to where they can sit back and "sandbag". And what if they weren't the only car like that in that same class. Oops, there goes your sandbagging argument. 

Remember, you tried to make the argument that classing cars one second faster than the other then the next class one more second faster....that's not how it would work..........LMAO you keep throwing silly arguments at this idea. 

Jojoo:

You might need to go back and read that thread. I answered every question thrown at me. Obviosly the SEB determines if a car needs to be moved with input from members as well.

SpyderVenom:

Jojoo:

Exactly, you just pointed out the problem with why PAX is broken. The PAX number only applies to the top car in the class the PAX number was made for. And considering there are usually only 2-3 cars on average that truly are competitive for the top spot, all the other cars in said class are screwed. So every other car in that class gets a big fat disadvantage if it's not one of the few cars that are class wining cars.

This should be easy for you.  Let's class three cars in two classes using SP rules.  Let's call the classes XSP and YSP and let's let the three cars be: a '07 C6 Z06, a '88 Pontiac Trans-am, and a '89 Honda Civic.  You can assume that all the cars are prepped to the limit of the rules and each is driven extremely well.  This is much simpler than hundreds of cars and 6 classes.

I didn't see you answer this in the previous thread.   

Jojoo:

You have missed my answering the same question you posed again (go back and read). NO ONE would need to go buy a new car. They would simply have more competition.

Sandbagging is a total joke. No one would be able to because you'd have more competition. I'd love to see a car and driver so fast now a days to where they can sit back and "sandbag". And what if they weren't the only car like that in that same class. Oops, there goes your sandbagging argument. 

Seriously - what you are suggesting is that when a car is "too fast" for a class, it get moved to a faster class.  By definition - the car that just got moved will not be the fastest (your definition of "more competition"?). You are right - no one would need to buy a new car, as in they would still be able to trophy in their old car.  But when you answer my question about classing above - there will be at least one driver in one car that will want to. So if that driver (who just spent $30k+ in SP mods) wants to be a National Champion the next year, they have to buy a new car.

Sandbagging for classing, right now, doesn't happen.  But I assure you that it does happen in ProSolo and seeing that you've never done one of those - you've never seen it happen.  So, if we look at this realistically - I'm sitting on a 1 second lead in class after day one - I might not try as hard on day 2 to protect the investment in my car.  In your mind, 1 second leads don't happen - but looking at the National results - every SP class except for CSP had the top driver beat the rest of the class by 0.8 seconds on at least one day.

Remember, you tried to make the argument that classing cars one second faster than the other then the next class one more second faster....that's not how it would work..........LMAO you keep throwing silly arguments at this idea.

I keep asking you about the time difference between classes.  If you want classes to be strictly determined by speed than there needs to be some basis upon which to make decisions.  In other words - how are you going to determine how fast each class is going to be?  Is it going to be with a set time distance between each class of 1 second per day?  2 seconds?  And does a car that "beats the spread" immediately get reclassed?  If it doesn't immediately get reclassed - then you end up with classes that are closer in time than they were before.  If that happens for a few years - How is that different than the problem we are facing right now?
 

SpyderVenom:

I didn't see you answer this in the previous thread.   

Thank you. 

SpyderVenom:

Seriously - what you are suggesting is that when a car is "too fast" for a class, it get moved to a faster class.  By definition - the car that just got moved will not be the fastest (your definition of "more competition"?). You are right - no one would need to buy a new car, as in they would still be able to trophy in their old car.  But when you answer my question about classing above - there will be at least one driver in one car that will want to. So if that driver (who just spent $30k+ in SP mods) wants to be a National Champion the next year, they have to buy a new car.

Sandbagging for classing, right now, doesn't happen.  But I assure you that it does happen in ProSolo and seeing that you've never done one of those - you've never seen it happen.  So, if we look at this realistically - I'm sitting on a 1 second lead in class after day one - I might not try as hard on day 2 to protect the investment in my car.  In your mind, 1 second leads don't happen - but looking at the National results - every SP class except for CSP had the top driver beat the rest of the class by 0.8 seconds on at least one day.

 

That's not true at all. A car wouldn't get moved if it simply keeps beating other cars, unless it beats them constantly and by a large margin Same exact way it's done right now but there'd be the next class just up from the other.  What do you know, I good place to put that faster car. This would be the discretion of the SEB and members. Even if this system isn't perfect, you will find each class would have more competition and not be able to sandbag just as it is now.

And sandbagging wouldn't happen this way either. Classing shouldn't be determined from Pro solos as the best of the best don't always show up to each of those events. Referring to them once in a while might help though. Averages across the board shouldn't be used. I.E. averaging the difference between 1st and 2nd throughout SP. This is also why we don't use only one event to determine classing. Specially when the weather had much to do with class timing.

SpyderVenom:

 

I keep asking you about the time difference between classes.  If you want classes to be strictly determined by speed than there needs to be some basis upon which to make decisions.  In other words - how are you going to determine how fast each class is going to be?  Is it going to be with a set time distance between each class of 1 second per day?  2 seconds?  And does a car that "beats the spread" immediately get reclassed?  If it doesn't immediately get reclassed - then you end up with classes that are closer in time than they were before.  If that happens for a few years - How is that different than the problem we are facing right now?
 

 There wouldn't be a set time limit between classes. The cars alone determine that. ASP might be an average of 1 second faster than BSP and BSP might be an average of 2 seconds faster than CSP. The differences in time don't matter till a car might need to be moved up or down.

Jojoo:

 

SCCA needs to stop pus*y footing around about the rules and classing a fix it and keep it fixed instead of letting thing get antiquated before fixing them. And that's why waiting for letters to fix things is a horrible way to work the system. 

I can't believe I just read that.

Steve Hoelscher:

Jojoo:

 

SCCA needs to stop pus*y footing around about the rules and classing a fix it and keep it fixed instead of letting thing get antiquated before fixing them. And that's why waiting for letters to fix things is a horrible way to work the system. 

I can't believe I just read that.

My key board sucks. My keys are sticking...fixed.

 If I had said SEB, would it have been better? The SCCA is ultimately responsible for the classing and rules.

"SCCA needs to stop pus*y footing around about the rules and classing and fix it and keep it fixed instead of letting things get antiquated before fixing them. And that's why waiting for letters to fix things is a horrible way to work the system." 

 Relying ONLY on letters is a bad way to do things.

Jojoo:

SpyderVenom:

I didn't see you answer this in the previous thread.   

Thank you. 

...and I still haven't. 

Jojoo:

SpyderVenom:

Seriously - what you are suggesting is that when a car is "too fast" for a class, it get moved to a faster class.  By definition - the car that just got moved will not be the fastest (your definition of "more competition"?). You are right - no one would need to buy a new car, as in they would still be able to trophy in their old car.  But when you answer my question about classing above - there will be at least one driver in one car that will want to. So if that driver (who just spent $30k+ in SP mods) wants to be a National Champion the next year, they have to buy a new car.

Sandbagging for classing, right now, doesn't happen.  But I assure you that it does happen in ProSolo and seeing that you've never done one of those - you've never seen it happen.  So, if we look at this realistically - I'm sitting on a 1 second lead in class after day one - I might not try as hard on day 2 to protect the investment in my car.  In your mind, 1 second leads don't happen - but looking at the National results - every SP class except for CSP had the top driver beat the rest of the class by 0.8 seconds on at least one day.

 

That's not true at all. A car wouldn't get moved if it simply keeps beating other cars, unless it beats them constantly and by a large margin Same exact way it's done right now but there'd be the next class just up from the other.  What do you know, I good place to put that faster car. This would be the discretion of the SEB and members. Even if this system isn't perfect, you will find each class would have more competition and not be able to sandbag just as it is now.

And sandbagging wouldn't happen this way either. Classing shouldn't be determined from Pro solos as the best of the best don't always show up to each of those events. Referring to them once in a while might help though. Averages across the board shouldn't be used. I.E. averaging the difference between 1st and 2nd throughout SP. This is also why we don't use only one event to determine classing. Specially when the weather had much to do with class timing.

My ProSolo example was not referring to classing - I was stating that sandbagging happens at the highest levels of the sport where you don't believe that it does.  I will again state that sandbagging will happen if a driver sees that he is going to dominate a class - in SP that is easy to do...  Pull a little boost, pull a little timing, etc.  The driver can still drive the car at 100% and it can still win the class but you will not have a car that is going to dominate and be looked at for reclassification.

SpyderVenom:

 

I keep asking you about the time difference between classes.  If you want classes to be strictly determined by speed than there needs to be some basis upon which to make decisions.  In other words - how are you going to determine how fast each class is going to be?  Is it going to be with a set time distance between each class of 1 second per day?  2 seconds?  And does a car that "beats the spread" immediately get reclassed?  If it doesn't immediately get reclassed - then you end up with classes that are closer in time than they were before.  If that happens for a few years - How is that different than the problem we are facing right now?
 

 There wouldn't be a set time limit between classes. The cars alone determine that. ASP might be an average of 1 second faster than BSP and BSP might be an average of 2 seconds faster than CSP. The differences in time don't matter till a car might need to be moved up or down.

That's like saying that the rules don't matter until someone breaks them.  The whole point of this is that if BSP keeps getting slightly faster each year by 0.2s it's going to take years to recognise the problem.  Once the determination is that you need to move cars, how many different cars may need to move to get back to the 1 second gap?  If you don't maintain a "gap" your entire speed based classing system falls apart. 

So once you maintain that there needs to be a "gap" then all we are doing is bracket racing to a certain time.  I need to have an ASP "+1 second" car or an ASP "+3 second" car.  Anything faster than that and it may get reclassified (if not this year maybe in a couple more).  And if we are going to do that - you are encouraging car NOT to prep to the limits of the class.  More cars will be competitive in class - because a prepped to the limit S2000 may run as fast as a not-so-prepped Evo.

SpyderVenom:

Jojoo:

SpyderVenom:

I didn't see you answer this in the previous thread.   

Thank you. 

...and I still haven't. 

Jojoo:

I do run DSP locally. My ideas go completely against any personal I classing. I run an Integra but think with the new 275 35 15 tire the Integra and a couple other cars have a much better chance at the BMW's. And are competitive or could be if someone was serious enough to try. I mention SP more because I see it as the biggest problem we have right now. Once the 275 came out I was completely against the BMW's moving out of DSP.

I agree stability is very important and making too many changes at once is not a good idea.  For more than one reason. 

Thank you. 

 

 

Great point, and that's exactly why the SEB not waiting for letters to fix or reclass a car or cars based on a change would have to happen.  And it could happen faster.

There you go. More semantics. 

Jojoo:

There wouldn't be a set time limit between classes. The cars alone determine that. ASP might be an average of 1 second faster than BSP and BSP might be an average of 2 seconds faster than CSP. The differences in time don't matter till a car might need to be moved up or down.

...and the more I think of this, the gaps become even more important.  You are suggesting that cars move both up and down.  So in fact, every car in ASP needs to be able to be on the same second as the top car or it gets moved down.  The same thing in BSP, every car needs to be within 2 seconds before it gets moved down to CSP.  That is the only way to keep the competition close in each class for all the cars listed - right?

So following your logic:  Let's say that there is a CSP car that reduces the GAP to BSP by 0.5 seconds.  If the SEB does not move that car, they need to look at every car in BSP and move those cars down that might now be competitive in CSP.  AND they need to look at CSP and move those cars down that are no longer within the stated CSP to DSP gap.  That will speed DSP up and cover the gap again (which in turn moves DSP cars down increasing the speed in ESP, which moves ESP cars down... and so on. ).  

SpyderVenom:

Jojoo:

SpyderVenom:

Seriously - what you are suggesting is that when a car is "too fast" for a class, it get moved to a faster class.  By definition - the car that just got moved will not be the fastest (your definition of "more competition"?). You are right - no one would need to buy a new car, as in they would still be able to trophy in their old car.  But when you answer my question about classing above - there will be at least one driver in one car that will want to. So if that driver (who just spent $30k+ in SP mods) wants to be a National Champion the next year, they have to buy a new car.

Sandbagging for classing, right now, doesn't happen.  But I assure you that it does happen in ProSolo and seeing that you've never done one of those - you've never seen it happen.  So, if we look at this realistically - I'm sitting on a 1 second lead in class after day one - I might not try as hard on day 2 to protect the investment in my car.  In your mind, 1 second leads don't happen - but looking at the National results - every SP class except for CSP had the top driver beat the rest of the class by 0.8 seconds on at least one day.

 

That's not true at all. A car wouldn't get moved if it simply keeps beating other cars, unless it beats them constantly and by a large margin Same exact way it's done right now but there'd be the next class just up from the other.  What do you know, I good place to put that faster car. This would be the discretion of the SEB and members. Even if this system isn't perfect, you will find each class would have more competition and not be able to sandbag just as it is now.

And sandbagging wouldn't happen this way either. Classing shouldn't be determined from Pro solos as the best of the best don't always show up to each of those events. Referring to them once in a while might help though. Averages across the board shouldn't be used. I.E. averaging the difference between 1st and 2nd throughout SP. This is also why we don't use only one event to determine classing. Specially when the weather had much to do with class timing.

My ProSolo example was not referring to classing - I was stating that sandbagging happens at the highest levels of the sport where you don't believe that it does.  I will again state that sandbagging will happen if a driver sees that he is going to dominate a class - in SP that is easy to do...  Pull a little boost, pull a little timing, etc.  The driver can still drive the car at 100% and it can still win the class but you will not have a car that is going to dominate and be looked at for reclassification.

SpyderVenom:

 

I keep asking you about the time difference between classes.  If you want classes to be strictly determined by speed than there needs to be some basis upon which to make decisions.  In other words - how are you going to determine how fast each class is going to be?  Is it going to be with a set time distance between each class of 1 second per day?  2 seconds?  And does a car that "beats the spread" immediately get reclassed?  If it doesn't immediately get reclassed - then you end up with classes that are closer in time than they were before.  If that happens for a few years - How is that different than the problem we are facing right now?
 

 There wouldn't be a set time limit between classes. The cars alone determine that. ASP might be an average of 1 second faster than BSP and BSP might be an average of 2 seconds faster than CSP. The differences in time don't matter till a car might need to be moved up or down.

That's like saying that the rules don't matter until someone breaks them.  The whole point of this is that if BSP keeps getting slightly faster each year by 0.2s it's going to take years to recognise the problem.  Once the determination is that you need to move cars, how many different cars may need to move to get back to the 1 second gap?  If you don't maintain a "gap" your entire speed based classing system falls apart. 

So once you maintain that there needs to be a "gap" then all we are doing is bracket racing to a certain time.  I need to have an ASP "+1 second" car or an ASP "+3 second" car.  Anything faster than that and it may get reclassified (if not this year maybe in a couple more).  And if we are going to do that - you are encouraging car NOT to prep to the limits of the class.  More cars will be competitive in class - because a prepped to the limit S2000 may run as fast as a not-so-prepped Evo.

Give me an exact car that you think might be able to sandbag. 

Incorrect. You're asking that each class has to be a strict time then if a car beats that time, it gets moved up. And I've already said that was a silly idea. There is a "gap" but it's not an exact number like you think it should be. It's not bracket racing.

This is the third time I'm having to tell you that.  

A car doesn't get moved because it beat the class limit of XX.XX time. It gets reclassed because it is constantly beating the other cars in it's class, was determined the other cars can't compete, and it's beating the competition by a wide margin. 

Jojoo:

There you go. More semantics. 

Look it's easy - I would like you to class three cars in two classes.  I haven't seen you say that the '07 C6 Z06 goes to XSP, the '88 Pontiac Trans-am also goes to XSP, and the '89 Honda Civic goes to YSP.  

I'm trying to get you to actually see what happens when you try and class cars entirely by speed where each cars class can move up or down depending on how fast it is compared to other cars in it's class.   

Jojoo:

SpyderVenom:

because a prepped to the limit S2000 may run as fast as a not-so-prepped Evo.

Give me an exact car that you think might be able to sandbag. 

Already did.