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BrianGT:

skierd:

Maybe its time to use 14.3.D again before we start pushing spec tires?

What is 14.3.D?  I don't see this in my rule book.

 -Brian
 

 

14.3.C is what I meant, the tire exclusion list. If the toyo's wear that fast and are truly significantly faster than the 'stones, azenis, or anything else in ST*, it should be considered. 

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2007 Toyota Tacoma
2002 Kartmini Rotax TAG kart - F125

Never run out of ideas, traction, and real estate at the same time.

rallyfan555:

Trent@TireRack:

As long as we are making a trip down memory lane, many may find  this Tire Rack ad, circa 1986, interesting :  

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9954/autoweekgk8.jpg

 Chris Harvey

Some of those tires look quite expensive in today's dollars.  They must have been REALLY expensive 22 years ago!

They were. I moved from Yok A008R to Goodyear slicks and saved money. 

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Aut tace aut loquere meliora silentio.

Trent@TireRack:

As long as we are making a trip down memory lane, many may find  this Tire Rack ad, circa 1986, interesting :  

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9954/autoweekgk8.jpg

 Chris Harvey

Yes Andy, I do remember Vredestein, but mostly for winter tires. And I also remember those re-capped tires, some thought they were sneaky doing that LOL.

 And that add sure does bring back memories! While some drooled over playboys, I was looking at those adds hehehehe, And The Fulda's, those too were hot at one time. I also noticed they are showing RONAL Wheels. I used to know the head honcho there, Gary Allison. They still have my Audi A4 up on their ad page. Also, the Uniroyal Rallye 180 and 240 were decent 70 series tires back then,

But so far no one got the "spongies or sil-slick" answer yet. Hmmmm 

For the record, I am NOT against sticky tires in ST. I love using them too. But, it is getting to the point where the company making them seem to go out of their way to make them so limited in mileage use (forcing multiple purchases per year for their benefit), and on top of that, forcing you to shave them if you want the sticky stuff underneath the normal compound and thus get even fewer miles use of them. As someone mentioned - you get more use our of R comps now, then what should have been TRUE street tires with tread, This is sort of ridiculous, and quite expensive, and unless you have factory sponsorship (free tires), the typical driver would not be able to afford to be competitive. Thus, unless you were a totally exceptional driver without the free tires, you can not afford to be as competitve as the few who get the free (better) tires. So that limits many "could be champ" drivers, to those with the "most". To me, that sort of ruins the original intent of grassroots affordable racing, and brings AutoX heading in the direction that killed IMSA. Drive out all the independants with limited budgets, and you end up with factory vs factory, until little by little they too run out of budget and eventually all left. And with no independants left, there was no series. Come on now, these are HUGE companys, with near unlimited budgets. You can't tell me that cannot deliver a sticky tire that could last for 2 seasons at least? And not need shaving - IF they really wanted to?

I think everyone is over reacting at this point, the Toyo wasn't even faster at the Dixie Tour (in STS at least) and if it is faster it isn't a lot faster.  If you are concerned with tire wear you can just run the Bridgestones, you can race an entire year on one set of tires on a light car.  Craig and I pretty much got thru the season (about 18 events including a test and tune) on 1.5 sets of tires that were shaved to 3/32" to start.  We bought another pair of tires to run on the front of the car for Nationals, they weren't any faster then the set we ran all year long.  And there is still tread on the set that we ran all year long, we might even start the year on them this year.

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Jason Frank
Bridgestone / datatoys.com / Redshift Motorsports STS Civic Si

TeamUndercoatRacing.com

Mugenlude:

If you are concerned with tire wear you can just run the Bridgestones, you can race an entire year on one set of tires on a light car

Well sadly, an R32 is not light :(

oops, sorry, double posted

Rocky:

For the record, I am NOT against sticky tires in ST. I love using them too. But, it is getting to the point where the company making them seem to go out of their way to make them so limited in mileage use (forcing multiple purchases per year for their benefit), and on top of that, forcing you to shave them if you want the sticky stuff underneath the normal compound and thus get even fewer miles use of them. As someone mentioned - you get more use our of R comps now, then what should have been TRUE street tires with tread, This is sort of ridiculous, and quite expensive, and unless you have factory sponsorship (free tires), the typical driver would not be able to afford to be competitive. Thus, unless you were a totally exceptional driver without the free tires, you can not afford to be as competitve as the few who get the free (better) tires. So that limits many "could be champ" drivers, to those with the "most". To me, that sort of ruins the original intent of grassroots affordable racing, and brings AutoX heading in the direction that killed IMSA. Drive out all the independants with limited budgets, and you end up with factory vs factory, until little by little they too run out of budget and eventually all left. And with no independants left, there was no series. Come on now, these are HUGE companys, with near unlimited budgets. You can't tell me that cannot deliver a sticky tire that could last for 2 seasons at least? And not need shaving - IF they really wanted to?

Wow. That's a lot of "misinformation" right there in one paragraph.

1. The companies making the tires have no intention of them being "so limited in mileage use" to force you to buy more tires. They make them sticky because guys like us demand that they be sticky and fast.

2. They do not force you to shave the tires. The tires are faster and last longer under AUTOCROSS USE so WE (the competitors) choose to shave them.

3. I don't know of an R Compound tire that lasts longer than the Bridgestones or Yoks. I am not a "factory driver" and I would like to think I am competitive(some days ) and certainly not "totally exceptional". I was within about a half second of Hollis at the Peru tour last year on a set of tires that had well over 120 runs on them. Certainly Andy could have been running on new tires that weekend but there was no need. His 100+run set of tires were plenty fast. Probably faster than a new set. I know mine were.

4. The only factory teams that I know of are GM Performance and HART. I do not recall any of their drivers winning a National Championship.

5. I am certain that if a tire manufacturer could build a tire that was sticky and could withstand 2 years of autocross use, they would because EVERY ONE OF US WOULD BE BUYING THEM! Sales=Profit.

I could further argue against your post but I think you get the idea.

I agree that the Toyo shouldn't be banned and agree with Jason that the Lynch Mobbing(Sorry Tiger, I didn't mean it in that manor ) is way premature.

 

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90 Miata/89 CRX - STS2 #90/190

Mugenlude:

And there is still tread on the set that we ran all year long, we might even start the year on them this year.

Yes, I think you should do that.  Especially if you start the year at the AR Pro like you said you might.  In fact, I DARE you to do so!

--Andy

 

Mugenlude:

I think everyone is over reacting at this point, the Toyo wasn't even faster at the Dixie Tour (in STS at least) and if it is faster it isn't a lot faster. 

 

Very true, but its not the current Toyo that people are really concerned about. The 195 Toyos apear to at least be in the game in STS/STS2, leading to speculation that the 225/45/15 Toyos, when launched, will become the the preferred tire in those classes.  Add in early reports suggesting the tire needs to be shaved to a near-zero tread-depth and wears quickly and its understandable why some people who still believe in the fairy tale of the "dual purpose street/race tire" are panicking. 

 

Some are suggesting tighter ST tire rules. But no matter the rule, it will take a dedicated set of race tires to be the most competitive.  I'd prefer to go the other way.  If I have to haul a set of dedicated autocross tires to an event to be competitive I'd just assume they be cutting-edge R-comps like Hoosiers. While the performance differences between ST and R tires are still substantial, the practical differences to the competitive autocrosser are diminishing.   If a 50 run, shaved-to-1/32" Toyo becomes the dominant tire there will be NO practical difference.  And if it isn't the Toyo now it will be some other tire in the future. 

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Once you go Mac, you never go back!

gary p:

Some are suggesting tighter ST tire rules. But no matter the rule, it will take a dedicated set of race tires to be the most competitive.  I'd prefer to go the other way.  If I have to haul a set of dedicated autocross tires to an event to be competitive I'd just assume they be cutting-edge R-comps like Hoosiers. While the performance differences between ST and R tires are still substantial, the practical differences to the competitive autocrosser are diminishing.   If a 50 run, shaved-to-1/32" Toyo becomes the dominant tire there will be NO practical difference.  And if it isn't the Toyo now it will be some other tire in the future. 

And here I just sold off a set of lightweight 13 x 7.5 rims with 225/45-13 R-comps....

 

I was looking at the picture Andy posted of the worn Toyo.  It looks grained really badly to me.  Although I could be wrong, usually tires that grain badly are not particularly fast.  And if it's that bad now, wait until the weather warms up.    Hoosier learned that with the A3S05.  Crazy soft tire that couldn't make a single 60 sec run without overheating.

Just an observation to those that are looking up at the sky.  

Dave G. 

glagola1:

Whatever... there's no sky falling and the tire is not the be all end all so who cares?
 

 

Wow.  Did you read my mind?  I was reading through this thread thinking the exact same thing.

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David
'97 Miata - STS2
Life is better topless!

Rocky:

Mugenlude:

If you are concerned with tire wear you can just run the Bridgestones, you can race an entire year on one set of tires on a light car

Well sadly, an R32 is not light :(

 

The R32 may not be light, but it is capable of getting more than one season on set of RE10R's.  I have one set with 250 runs on them that are still locally competitive and have 5-6/32 tread remaining - even after multiple 3 driver events and test sessions.  The tires started full tread and never showed a sign of chunking, and survived on days where track temps were 130F+ down here in the South!

 

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VW MKIV R32 - STX

I put another 8 runs on my set, and am starting to like the toyos a whole lot.  They feel better with the 2/32nd amount of tread on them, and they seem to love big slip angles.  The car feels great in a skidpad.  Have 61 runs on them now, and they still look decent.  With the stiffer setup in the rear, they seem to work good and the grip is outstanding still.  This was my 5th event on them.  Was able to set FTDP with them.. but only because Glagola didn't show up ;)
 

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89/189 STS/STX '89 Civic Si

Rocky:

and on top of that, forcing you to shave them if you want the sticky stuff underneath the normal compound and thus get even fewer miles use of them.

 Is this true?  I'm not a National Level super-competative autocrosser.  Therefore, I daily drive my "race" tires.  I understand the concept of shaving to prolong autocross use by reducing heat build up and chunking, and having a shorter treadblock leads to less squirming.

 However, do the new generation tires really have dual compounds - hard on the outside, sticky on the inside?

 Specifically, I'm wondering about the new Dunlops.  Thanks.

 -Dan

dan_wheeler:

 However, do the new generation tires really have dual compounds - hard on the outside, sticky on the inside?

Some do, some don't.

Many manufacturers use this as a method to keep more consistent traction throughout the life of the tires.  As the tire ages, the tread compound continues to vulcanize and hardens up.  As new layers are exposed, rubber than was originally softer than the exterior layer comes out, but it has hardened some, too.  But its now at about the smae level fo stickiness of the original exterior rubber.

If you shave such a tire, you can start off with the softer rubber before it has a chance to harden up some.

The RE-01R, RT615, and RT215 do not have this technology.  Bridgestone does use it on some of their tires, though.  Rumor was that the Falken FK451 (is that right?) did this.  This was the tire that Hoppe used to win STX a couple years ago.

And its not so much "sticky", as just softer.  Sticky implies adhesive grip (when your finger sticks to the tread of the tire usually activated by heat).  This is different from "soft" which delivers mechanical grip as the tread can get down in and around the expeosed aggregate of the racing surface.  R-compunds do both of these, while ST tires do only the latter, if either.  Paul Haney's book (The Racing and Hi-Performance Tire) has some good info on this distinction. 

--Andy

 

So in regards to the RE-01R, is it still the belief that a shaved set will grip better and last longer than a non-shaved set?  Just got some new ones myself and trying to find good information.  Thanks!

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2003 Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V
Sponsored by AgileAuto.com
D.C./Philly Region - 3 STX
cardomain.com/id/piknockout

BrianGT:

I put another 8 runs on my set, and am starting to like the toyos a whole lot.  They feel better with the 2/32nd amount of tread on them, and they seem to love big slip angles.  The car feels great in a skidpad.  Have 61 runs on them now, and they still look decent.  With the stiffer setup in the rear, they seem to work good and the grip is outstanding still.  This was my 5th event on them.  Was able to set FTDP with them.. but only because Glagola didn't show up ;)
 

 

You should save this 2/32nd set for a big event, because at the tread depth you might be lucky to get another 6 runs before they cord.

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I live my life one cone at a time........

Whiplash_Motorsports:

You should save this 2/32nd set for a big event, because at the tread depth you might be lucky to get another 6 runs before they cord.

haha..  just going to run them until they cord.  Hopefully the new sizes will be out by that point.  I am curious to try them in the 16" size and also the wider 15" 

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89/189 STS/STX '89 Civic Si

piknockout:

So in regards to the RE-01R, is it still the belief that a shaved set will grip better and last longer than a non-shaved set?  Just got some new ones myself and trying to find good information.  Thanks!

Yes.

Jessee Caudill ran some early last year at full tread, and did reasonably well, but they wore pretty quickly at that depth.  And not as evenly as the shaved ones that most others used.  I have some full-treads that I use as rains and they are definitely slower and not as crisp as the shaved ones.

This is even more important as the weight of the car goes up, especially on front-heavy cars.  I've driven some STU rally cars, for example, on full-treads and they were squirmy, sloppy monsters.  Fast, but squirmy slimy.

--Andy