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  Whats happend is a once vibrant BSP class is going away for the same reason BP did. I'm afraid its already to late to save it

Harold.

Is that like ESP post rally-car eviction? You know, the same ESP that has yet to regain it's numbers since they left?

Is this the same "There are many old <insert favorite class here> cars just WAITING to come back." argument we all heard the last time? I mean, I didn't think the EVO/STi was a good fit for ESP, but once they left, the class got smaller and hasn't recovered since. Now, folks want to remove half the BSP field... Yeah, that'll FIX it...

Jazzie604:

Can we take a step back for a minute?  What is pissing you guys off more, the fact that a AWD sedan is playing with the RWD used to be top of the line sports cars, or the fact that a GREAT driver won by a large margin, or something else altogether?  Ive got lots of arguments but I want to make sure I actually know what you guys are complaining about again.  After 28 pages, its become muddled. 

Ive yet to see a reply.  Without a specific reason as to why the Evo does not belong in the class, I dont see why the SEB is ready to move the car.  So what is it guys.  Does the class have a certain drivetrain that it should only allow?  Was Tom Berry just too fast?  Are you afraid your wife is going to make you by a sedan that is economical, you can drive to the grocery, and is still faster than your Vette?  Step up and lets talk.

I am considering just going to SM to hear less bitching and at least I will always be in the same class.

Nothing like going AS-ESP-BSP-BSP-ASP in my first five years of AX with the same car.  Hell, I'd save a lot on magnetic letters.

AWDSP:

911 Turbo - $123,000 - 480 hp - 3494 lbs

Evo - $35,000 - 286 hp - 3200 lbs

STi - $35,000 - 300 hp - 3300 lbs

WRX - $25,000 - 230 hp - 3100 lbs

GT-R - $90,000 - 480 hp - 3800 lbs

Impreza - $17,000 - 175 hp - 3000 lbs

 Yeah, ^ that's a viable class.

DaveH:

AWDSP:

 Yeah, ^ that's a viable class.

It is?  Is there any evidence to say that any of those other cars can run with the EVO? 

So if we create your AWDSP are the non-EVO drivers going to be screaming to get the EVO out after they all get their butt kicked to the curb?

And you have the same car listed on three different lines in the same class.  The STI, WRX and Impreza.  What happened to "Best of Breed"?  You are taking the WRX out of ESP and dumping him in with the STI but removing his ability to up/back date?  Yeah, he will be REALLY excited about going to AWDSP.

Steve Hoelscher:

DaveH:

Yeah, ^ that's a viable class.

Yeah, he will be REALLY excited about going to AWDSP.

 One type of sarcasm doesn't recognize itself. ;-)

If I'm moving from FSP to ASP, that'd be pretty funny, but I suspect I started with the wrong engine. 

-N
 

Mike Shields:

I say, I say, that was sarcasm Steve, sarcasm.

Hey, why arent you busy complaining!?!?  The car that won your class was 1.417s ahead of everyone else.  That must be an unfairly developed model that will lead to a single car dominant class and THAT is unfair.  oh, waaaiitt a minute.....

**hint: DSP is only 1 of many classes that have a margin of victory that was close or LARGER than BSP, and DSP has a FAR smaller diversity in the top 10 cars than BSP did.  I wonder why there is no   "DSP NEEDS TO BE FIXED! SEND A LETTER!"   thread?

Jazzie604:

I wonder why there is no   "DSP NEEDS TO BE FIXED! SEND A LETTER!"   thread?

That was last year's bitchfest, and when "move all 3-series BMWs from DSP to BSP" was put out for member comment, it was shot down.

Steve Hoelscher:

DaveH:

AWDSP:

 Yeah, ^ that's a viable class.

It is?  Is there any evidence to say that any of those other cars can run with the EVO? 

Sorry, fixed it.  I figure if we're having AWDSP, there aren't enough SP Evos out there to support a class, so we need to put all the AWD cars in there.  Besides, since AWD is so different that its impossible to class with 2WD (as has been pointed out multiple times in this thread), I figured they all belonged there.  And the Porsche, fully prepped, will spank the Evo.  The GT-R is an unknown, but I've seen video of one and despite it's weight its no slouch.

Have you ever wondered why when an AWD car isn't winning it just isn't the car to have, but when it is, its an unfair advantage?  It seems like the tendency is to keep bumping them up until they can't win anymore, then they're classed in the right place.

Heres some of my thoughts: 

IF the Evo is to be moved to ASP soley on the fact that one driver made it faster than a Vette (on a cold slick course)

 THEN:

-Sam Strano is no longer allowed in FS due to his obvious advantage over the world, he won by 1.9 seconds!!!

-the 89-91 Civic is no longer allowed in STS due to the fact that 18of the top 20 cars were all civics, and thats not fair to create a one car class

-the 02 WRX needs to be bumped from STX due to its winning margin of 1.556 seconds

-the Z06 is not fair in ASP due to its 1.610 second marging

-Bob Tunnell is not allowed in XP cause winning by 2 seconds is huge, unless compared to

-2.635 seconds in SM2.  Cant disallow a car in SM2 because the 1st and second place cars appear to be the same.  Maybe the 2nd driver was running on flat tires, because winning by a large margin CANT be due to a GREAT driver, it HAS to be a unfairly fast CAR. 

Lastly, What cars were top dogs in BS, FS, GS, DSP before the current "1 car to have" field came to be, and why didnt they get the same special treatment that the BSP guys are asking for, and may be receiving?

Jazzie604:

Lastly, What cars were top dogs in BS, FS, GS, DSP before the current "1 car to have" field came to be, and why didnt they get the same special treatment that the BSP guys are asking for, and may be receiving?

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

You wanna know what car was top dog in DSP before the BMW?  ...oh no....    That would be one particular Fiat X1/9 which won DSP four times in five years.  It was deemed to be an overdog resulting in the creation of FSP.  Which promptly killed the car.  By all consideration, its the same situation we have in BSP.  One particular car wins BSP big and all of a sudden its the car and not the driver?  Anyone notice who won BSP in a Vette in '03?

I know Tom Berry well having competed against him in DSP for more than a few years.  I know what it took to beat him then and I am sure it hasn't gotten any easier. 

DaveH:

Sorry, fixed it. 

Sorry, without some indicator, its hard to know the intended context. 

DaveH:

 

Have you ever wondered why when an AWD car isn't winning it just isn't the car to have, but when it is, its an unfair advantage?  It seems like the tendency is to keep bumping them up until they can't win anymore, then they're classed in the right place.

Yes, we see that in Pro Rally all the time

This isn't unique to AWD cars.  It happens to lots of people who excel.  Anybody remember when the BMW 325is was in AS?   Or a driver named Russ Wiles?

Steve Hoelscher:

  One particular car wins BSP big and all of a sudden its the car and not the driver?

We could ask Mr. Tunnel what it's like to get booted from class after class with his BMW.

FWIW, there are "Evos waiting to join BSP" as well. I plan on moving from STU to BSP next year depending on where the Evos end up.

AWDSP (aka BSP?) would be acceptable. ASP is outrageous.

Lot of hand wringing in this thread. One thing everyone should consider is the fact that HPT's surface has influenced the results at nationals quite a bit. If the nats were held on a larger, (dry) concrete surface, BSP would be fine as is with no argument, IMHO. The real issue is slippery asphalt and rain, where the Evo is going to be almost untouchable when set up and driven well. Obviously, at a Pro the AWD is a monster advantage too. Good luck making up the 2-3 tenths per side at the start.

Part of the question here should be " do we class cars by national results or results at Nationals?" 

BSPC5:

One thing everyone should consider is the fact that HPT's surface has influenced the results at nationals quite a bit. If the nats were held on a larger, (dry) concrete surface, BSP would be fine as is with no argument, IMHO. The real issue is slippery asphalt and rain, where the Evo is going to be almost untouchable when set up and driven well.

On this side of the country, HPT is probably a pretty decent representation of where most autocrossing is done.

CamaroFS34:

Jazzie604:

I wonder why there is no   "DSP NEEDS TO BE FIXED! SEND A LETTER!"   thread?

That was last year's bitchfest, and when "move all 3-series BMWs from DSP to BSP" was put out for member comment, it was shot down.

It was last years bitchfest, but it wasn't shot down!  They said we need to evaluate the impact of wide 15" tires on the class dyanimc, so wait and see.

It wasn't shot down the year before either (but was a bitchfest), when they needed to evaluate the turbo rule change.  Wait and see.

Don't even think it...the discussion wasn't shot down the year before that (but was officially entering it's second year of bitchfest) , when it was stated that the rules changes to cam phasing, COULD change the results, but we really needed to wait and see before messing everything up with something as big as a class change.

The year before that it was stated that the results might be a fluke.  We should wait and see, then evaluate and MAYBE make changes.

And when, the year before that, a small group of very knowledgeable people seriously asked how in the heck did the BMWs get into DSP after the big shakeup to the "all dominant" X-1/9, the subject was politely changed.  They distracted everyone by bitching about neons instead.  HA! suckers.

Seriously, why bother?  The SPAC has spent years doing their best to not have to make any really tough decisions.  When is someone going to wake and realize that there has been so many updates to rules,  new cars, strange frankenhybrids developed, and actual performance development of both cars and parts that the current classing structure is ....COMPLETELY......UTTERLY.....BROKEN.   Take every car listed in the back, throw them up in the air and redo the whole section.  Better yet, treat it like motorcycle manufactur's do.  Every 2 years there are adjustments, and every 4 there is a complete redo.

 O