SCCAForums.com

DaveH:

How many of those cars have been sitting in garages since 2005 just waiting for the Evo to get kicked out?  My guess is most of those people have parted out the cars and moved on.  Half the class last year was Evos and STi's.  If you kick them out, you cut the class in half for next year.  You may pick up some people, but I'll bet its not enough to make up for what you're losing.  If the rally cars go and the class doesn't make numbers at Nationals that year, do you really think anyone is going to start a build?  I don't. 

How many are waiting?  More than you know...I've personally have talk to several of them...have you?  Good portion of the Vette guys still have their cars, but are running them @ NCCC events instead of SCCA. 

Yes, the class will come back.  Many saw the coming of the Evo and left.  It was talked about when the car was in ESP.  Many, like myself, are waiting for this to play out.  If it happens, I have a sweet ride, if not, I'll continue to support the reclassification of the Corolla GTS back to FSP and I'll build one of those.  (the coupe is sweet looking!)
 

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Lee
FStock Shelby GT

Well, I usually prefer to lurk but my name has been mentioned a few times :)

Without going into a ton of detail about how our So Cal courses are near-ideal for the S2000, lemme just say this...  If I thought I stood a chance against Tom, or any well driven, well prepped rallycar, I'd be running the S2000!  I enjoy driving the S2k more than any car I've ever owned hands-down.  The reality is that unless the stars are in perfect alignment, I don't stand a chance (same with the M3 and C4's imho).  And even when the stars are in perfect alignment, the Evo is still more than capable of winning and is probably still the best car.  By my definition that makes the Evo an overdog.

There are other classes with overdogs (perceived or real) and that in itself it not necessarily a problem.  However many of those classes are not suffering from the participation problems that BSP has, combined with the problem that there currently isn't a good place to move the C4/M3/S2k/etc...

My S2000 is sitting at home in the garage waiting for a place to play.

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Jason Uyeda

winchester:

 Lee,

 I am against the Evo in ASP b/c it doesn't fit the full potential of ASP.  Aren't the Exige-S and GT3 ASP cars?  Hell Ian Stewart is difficult enough to catch in SS, nevermind an SP prepped GT3.  I'll reference the 06 DC Pro for that one.  07 DC Pro Daddio didn't even catch ASP (but did beat SS).

 I will say I understand your frustration to a degree (I've got alot of $$ and time into my own car) and I also recognize that BSP isn't overflowing with participants.  I also wanted to point out that you might have made your case alot easier by just having run your car in 07.  I think you are a valuable data point that was missing.

John

Hey John...

I did think about running my car, but I'm an uber-competitive person, and also the one footing all the bills.  Dumping $$$$ into a car that I knew mechanically would not win did not sound all that appealing.  I would love to have driven the car, it's such a hoot!  The one event I ran last year I had a grin from ear to ear while driving it.  The entire time I thought I hope there comes a day when I can run it again at every event.  I could not take it to HPT knowing the best I could do would be mid-trophies.  I want the jacket!  That's why I put the $$$ an time into it...

 

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Lee
FStock Shelby GT

spaf:

My S2000 is sitting at home in the garage waiting for a place to play.

Like I said, there are other BSP cars that won't run until competitive equality is restored to the class, and here is one. 

My M3  is sitting at home in the garage waiting for a place to play as well.

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Lee
FStock Shelby GT

I've also been lurking. I have let Lee speak for me, thanks Lee.

Now I want to say I agree with Jason.

One thing I would like to add last year at Topeka in impound we where reviewing the results and a guy you may of heard of was standing next to me when I said looks like the all wheel drive got us again and he said you know when everything else is equal they always will... The guys name Bobby Rahal

I think when you have a class of cars so different it needs its own class. If thats not possible SM seems a better fit than BSP or ASP.I  may be codriving  a Viper in ASP this year at national events.

Harold....BSP#61

 

 

 

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HOlsen

spaf:

Well, I usually prefer to lurk but my name has been mentioned a few times :)

Without going into a ton of detail about how our So Cal courses are near-ideal for the S2000, lemme just say this...  If I thought I stood a chance against Tom, or any well driven, well prepped rallycar, I'd be running the S2000!  I enjoy driving the S2k more than any car I've ever owned hands-down.  The reality is that unless the stars are in perfect alignment, I don't stand a chance (same with the M3 and C4's imho).  And even when the stars are in perfect alignment, the Evo is still more than capable of winning and is probably still the best car.  By my definition that makes the Evo an overdog.

There are other classes with overdogs (perceived or real) and that in itself it not necessarily a problem.  However many of those classes are not suffering from the participation problems that BSP has, combined with the problem that there currently isn't a good place to move the C4/M3/S2k/etc...

My S2000 is sitting at home in the garage waiting for a place to play.

 

haha, Damn it Jason, how am I supposed to use you as an example if you're paying attention!

 

Gotta say, Ueyda's S2000 is one of the most fun ride alongs I've ever done.  

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-Aaron G>

Timmons Subaru
ZZYZXmotorsports.com
www.ChaseCam.com

As a lurker on the rally car issue I would like to finally throw in my two cents... We competed in the Dixie Tour with a C4 this past weekend and I strongly considered competing in ASP or SM2 to "protest" the rally car situation. My son, the better driver, opted for BSP and I relinquished. Last year at the Dixie Tour 16 drivers competed in BSP and this year we had 5, I think that pretty much tells the story. If the rally cars remain in BSP a move to SM2 would appear to be in order and the rally cars can have BSP by default.

I've come to the conclusion that with rally cars we are competing more with a computer than another driver. Rally cars don't need to be moved to ASP, they need their own classes.

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Ed Wesch, Sr.
BSP - '92 Corvette

What computer? The fast Evos don't have traction control _or_ ABS. None of the US cars have the fancy yaw control that other markets get.

 

donour

donour:

What computer? The fast Evos don't have traction control _or_ ABS. None of the US cars have the fancy yaw control that other markets get.

 

donour

 

The slow white Evo with all the Showcase stickers on it has had ABS since early-mid last year (well before Nationals)...

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Jason Uyeda

spaf:

donour:

What computer? The fast Evos don't have traction control _or_ ABS. None of the US cars have the fancy yaw control that other markets get.

 

donour

 

The slow white Evo with all the Showcase stickers on it has had ABS since early-mid last year...

Now it goes like hell....AND...STOPS TOO!!!!!

Geez, give it yaw control and the car should be in SSP (Super Street Prepared)!   

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Lee
FStock Shelby GT

When I commented "...I've come to the conclusion that with rally cars we are competing more with a computer than another driver..." I was referring to the WRX STi since I am unfamiliar with the Evo. I thought it would be similarly set up as far as at the tire traction control and the ability to control the percentage of front to rear bias. My daughter drove a well prepared BSP WRX STi and commented that all she had to do was keep the track between her thumbs and steer since (apparently) if the car oversteers you step on the gas and if it understeers you step on the gas and it makes corrections accordingly. Apparently "the computer" controls the traction independently at each wheel. Her times in our C4 were typically two to three seconds slower than our other drivers and after a lap or two in the STi she was right at the C4's times. She attributed this increase in speed to her ability to "interface with the computer".

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Ed Wesch, Sr.
BSP - '92 Corvette

Ewesch----

I autox a ASP vette, but I street drive a 06 Wrx STI-----

There is no "inteface with the computer"-----her description seems a little wacky IMHO. 

The STI doesn't drive for you.  Maybe she was able to use more of the STI than the C4.  AWD has been known to be a little more stable.  But again doesn't drive the car for you.

However that STI might have been an overall better(read faster BSP car than your Vette).  What with 15 year newer technology and all that.

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Trying to get faster

spaf:

donour:

What computer? The fast Evos don't have traction control _or_ ABS. None of the US cars have the fancy yaw control that other markets get.

 

donour

 

The slow white Evo with all the Showcase stickers on it has had ABS since early-mid last year (well before Nationals)...

 

for the record, the abs lowered our max braking acceleration.  It just saves tires.

A lot of the fear regarding these magical electronically controlled boost buggies is clearly based on ignorance.  Are they faster than a C4?  Sometimes.  Easier to drive?  Sure.  Fifteen years in car tech is an eternity.  Do they belong in ASP?  Absolutely not.

My codriver and I had kind of a running joke last year about how the STi's "drive themselves".   The STi is in no way as sophistacated as the above poster thinks.  The new EVOX however, is a different story.  Beating many Rcomped cars in raw time with our STU cars left many looking for excuses.  Perhaps we should move in the direction of all AWD classes.  But for now I think they are classed apropriately. 

Do we need to have a complete set of classes for cars built in same decade?  How about BSP80, BSP 90 and BSP 00?  Would that keep everybody happy.   This world is driven by technology and cars aren't any different.  The C4 has been the front runner in BSP for how long?   Probably longer than any other chassis has been on top of the heap. 

The fact that BSP has run in the first heat on the so called "slippery" HPT surface has more to do with EVO dominance( as well as top notch drivers) than the EVO being a complete overdog.  Would we  be having this discussion if nats were still on concrete?

Just my 2 cents.   I refuse to destroy a nice new car to run SP anyway.

James

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2007 STU National Champ

Can we take a step back for a minute?  What is pissing you guys off more, the fact that a AWD sedan is playing with the RWD used to be top of the line sports cars, or the fact that a GREAT driver won by a large margin, or something else altogether?  Ive got lots of arguments but I want to make sure I actually know what you guys are complaining about again.  After 28 pages, its become muddled. 

ewesch:

When I commented "...I've come to the conclusion that with rally cars we are competing more with a computer than another driver..." I was referring to the WRX STi since I am unfamiliar with the Evo. I thought it would be similarly set up as far as at the tire traction control and the ability to control the percentage of front to rear bias. My daughter drove a well prepared BSP WRX STi and commented that all she had to do was keep the track between her thumbs and steer since (apparently) if the car oversteers you step on the gas and if it understeers you step on the gas and it makes corrections accordingly. Apparently "the computer" controls the traction independently at each wheel. Her times in our C4 were typically two to three seconds slower than our other drivers and after a lap or two in the STi she was right at the C4's times. She attributed this increase in speed to her ability to "interface with the computer".

 

Wow Ed...Maybe it was MY Car setup that allowed her to drive fast...?????? The computer does NOT control each axle independantly...because it still needs LSD's in the diffs to ensure traction...The Factory LSD's are pretty weak...they only have about 10-20%  lockup...whereas a aftermarket LSD can achieve 100% Lockup depending on setup....The only thing the computer does ( in the STi ) is allows the Bias Between front and rear...it achieves this using a 10 bit sampling rate per sec...Most of the time when the DCCD is in Auto...it Pushes...But I can actually, manually set the DCCD (Drivers Controlled Center Diff) from 55% front 45 rear all the way to 35% front 65% rear...o have it 50/50 locked..this is on a 04/05 STi...the 06/07's have a different split....

During all this...You guys keep mentioning the EVO....and not the STi specifically...Some of you guys that are lobbying to get the AWD cars out of SP...need to realize that throwing the STi in with EVO just because it's AWD doesn't mean that thats a good fit also...Some of the comments being made are down right ignorant...just because you "heard" or My friends car this....or This guys car that...doesn't mean its true..

 

Bill

 

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MY99 Subaru Impreza Outback Wagon
Buccaneer Region
FSP #93
2006/2007 Buccaneer Region BSP Champion
2006/2007 Subaru Challenge BSP Champion
Killing cones since 1999

2 years of AWD cars starting their heat at 8am with 50F temperatures is going to lead to AWD victories...

 Harold O has split into the top of the heap every year I have been there, showing the vette's can keep up (by the way I think his car is beautiful)

 I haven't seen an STi place better than 7th.  Personally if the EVO stays in the class I might even leave for SM.

 Locally I can heat up 315s and do well, but at topeka in those conditions the 285s are also the better tire IMO for the conditions the last two years.  Put BSP in heat 3 or later and wait to see what happens when the bigger tires can get hot.

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Justin R - 99 BSP
zzyzxmotorsports.com, agileauto.com, spun-autosports.com, xtperformance.com, 6GunRacing.com
2005-2008 Steel Cities SCCA - Solo Board

Scooby South:

During all this...You guys keep mentioning the EVO....and not the STi specifically...Some of you guys that are lobbying to get the AWD cars out of SP...need to realize that throwing the STi in with EVO just because it's AWD doesn't mean that thats a good fit also...Some of the comments being made are down right ignorant...just because you "heard" or My friends car this....or This guys car that...doesn't mean its true..
 

 

Oh, come on Bill...  Where would be be without ignorance, assumption, rumor and hearsay? 

I do have  a serious question for the people lobbying for an AWD SP class.  Let's for a moment assume you get AWD-SP.  What goes in it?  Obviously the Evo, but what about the STI?  It hasn't proven itself to be the equal of the Evo, or even the C4 Vette at this point.  And there are AWD cars scattered throughout SP.  The plain WRX, the AWD Talon/Eclips, various Porsches, etc...  Most of these cars are currently outpaced by the Evo.  So do we end up with a one car class?  Or do we screw the owners of those AWD cars that are not on the same pace?  Is AWD-SP another class?  Or does an existing class become AWD-SP?   If its a new class, what is the effect of spreading the existing field of SP cars over more classes? 

This question needs to be answered.  Its easy to say we need an AWD-SP class but alot more difficult when you actually have to put a proposal on the table.   I really would like to see how this would work.

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
http://www.terriehoward.com

Steve Hoelscher:

Scooby South:

During all this...You guys keep mentioning the EVO....and not the STi specifically...Some of you guys that are lobbying to get the AWD cars out of SP...need to realize that throwing the STi in with EVO just because it's AWD doesn't mean that thats a good fit also...Some of the comments being made are down right ignorant...just because you "heard" or My friends car this....or This guys car that...doesn't mean its true..
 

 

Oh, come on Bill...  Where would be be without ignorance, assumption, rumor and hearsay? 

 

Exactly where were at now????? :lol:

I agree with you Steve...This measure appears to want to kill one class for the sake of anouther....

 

Bill 

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MY99 Subaru Impreza Outback Wagon
Buccaneer Region
FSP #93
2006/2007 Buccaneer Region BSP Champion
2006/2007 Subaru Challenge BSP Champion
Killing cones since 1999

While I thinking about it...I don't see any Z06 Guys wanting the AWD Porcshes out of ASP????...Why?????

And to go along with What Steve said...What is going to happen to the rest of the cars..

I have said this from the beginning of this thread...that the SCCA need a COMPLETE Re-vamp on Classing..

A CSP Miata can turn the same times as a ASP Vette..I even watched a ESP Car turn similar times...

so basically a FS Shelby should be reclassed because it has a great driver???? I am sure Sam would disagree with sentiment..

(Sam PAXED 2nd on Sun at Dixie)

 

Bill
 

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MY99 Subaru Impreza Outback Wagon
Buccaneer Region
FSP #93
2006/2007 Buccaneer Region BSP Champion
2006/2007 Subaru Challenge BSP Champion
Killing cones since 1999