SCCAForums.com

Scooby South:

mwood:

I can't believe that there is even an attempt being made here to use this past weekend's event as a "data point"...

 

hummmmm..why not.....????? you can make all the argument you want....about how this or that on any given day....so why not THE FIRST 08 Tour....Makes sense to me??? then we can gauge SD tour/Pro also....

Bill 

As a AWD wanting to stay in BSP, I don't think you're going to want to use the West Coast events as a leg in your argument...unless Tom, Marshall and Christine carry enough sand to fill the trunk of the Evo...

They are FAST...no matter what car

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In slow, out fast.
In fast, out backwards.

mwood:

Scooby South:

mwood:

I can't believe that there is even an attempt being made here to use this past weekend's event as a "data point"...

 

hummmmm..why not.....????? you can make all the argument you want....about how this or that on any given day....so why not THE FIRST 08 Tour....Makes sense to me??? then we can gauge SD tour/Pro also....

Bill 

As a AWD wanting to stay in BSP, I don't think you're going to want to use the West Coast events as a leg in your argument...unless Tom, Marshall and Christine carry enough sand to fill the trunk of the Evo...

They are FAST...no matter what car

 

EXACTLY......Finely someone understands....thank you..

 

Bill 

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MY99 Subaru Impreza Outback Wagon
Buccaneer Region
FSP #93
2006/2007 Buccaneer Region BSP Champion
2006/2007 Subaru Challenge BSP Champion
Killing cones since 1999

autoxn:

You wouldn't believe how few letters we receive. 

I have to wonder if some of them aren't making it to the committees. There has been a lot of mention on here and other places about how hard it is to get a letter acknowledged/logged/whatever nowadays :(

John
 

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John W: 2003 WRX (#7 STX) | 1998 ///M3
Washington, DC Region

All the committee members and their e-mail addresses are listed on scca.com.  Click on the log in button and go to Directory -> Boards and Committees and find the appropriate committee.  Then CC your divisional representative on your e-mail and ask them to post the letter in the committee forum.

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Dave Heinig

07 GXP Z0K (Thanks Rob!)

Butt Dyno:

autoxn:

You wouldn't believe how few letters we receive. 

I have to wonder if some of them aren't making it to the committees.

"some of them aren't making it to the committees" ?  I think it's more like most of them.

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www.teamWTF.org
WDCR
AS C4 z51
ASP e46m3 "slower than an Evo" ;)

Scooby South:

I agree...A well written Letter goes alot further than someone who rants....Trust me when I say...I am a very different person when it comes to being articulate...Thanks Jr. for the vode of confidence...I have lost faith in most things the SCCA does namely because of 1 person...which will remain nameless here.. I find this forum a place to vent my frustration....and I was one of those STi statistics that was mentioned....TWICE..My comments:however skewed they are ..are my comments...I wasn't attacking anyone in particular....But I definitely see what gets a rise out of some people....Sorry to have ruffled some feathers..SO where is Lee since this has been announced....He must be as happy as a pig in slop...:lol:

Bill 

...sorry, I've been busy enjoying the mild Maryland winter, so I've been riding my dirtbikes.  Planning an April wedding takes some time, too...

Anyway..."happy as a pig in slop"...no, not really.  I am pleased it's out for member comment, but all that means is just that, comments.  It's not rule yet, the SPAC is just trying to figure out what people think.  

In response to your covered wagon w/ new wooden wheels comment...This thread's intent was not to just say Rally cars make the old BSP cars uncompetitive, it's that they have made ALL other BSP cars (which includes new technology) uncompetitive.  For example (disclaimer: I heard this by word of mouth recently, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong) Steve Wynveen had the intent to build his previously owned AS S2000 into a BSP car, but chose not to do so because of the disparity within the class, and has since purchased a Z06 for SS.  I have talked w/ others about potential BSP projects, a 350Z for example (campaigned by a local DC guy), and if it stood a chance against the rally cars. 

Bottom line is as the class sits there is one competitive car, and you can smoke all 4 tires when you side-step the clutch.  In the past the class was heavily subscribed, sans the rally cars the class had amazing potential to grow (w/ 350Z, RX8, 911, S2000...), but that will not happen if it stays the way it is.  No one whats to put $10k+ into a $25k+ car just to be trophy fodder...

...again, my view is EQUAL COMPETITION FOR ALL!!!! 

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Lee
FStock '08 Shelby GT-C

leepic:

...again, my view is EQUAL COMPETITION FOR ALL!!!! 

 

 I'm confused.  How is it equal when one car wins 21 out of the last 25 or so National Championships?

 How is it domination when BSP has been won twice by an Evo compared to 21 by a Corvette?

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NNJR SCCA

2005 Evo MR BSP #76
1994 Miata R ES #76

leepic:

In response to your covered wagon w/ new wooden wheels comment...This thread's intent was not to just say Rally cars make the old BSP cars uncompetitive, it's that they have made ALL other BSP cars (which includes new technology) uncompetitive.  For example (disclaimer: I heard this by word of mouth recently, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong) Steve Wynveen had the intent to build his previously owned AS S2000 into a BSP car, but chose not to do so because of the disparity within the class, and has since purchased a Z06 for SS. 

You heard correctly, Lee.  IMHO, the S2000 stood a fighting chance with the C4 and M3, but has no chance against the Evo & STi.  I'm very concerned that if nothing changes from where we are, we end up with AWD-SP by proxy, and thus far, the Evo/STi contingent has not come out in great enough numbers to sustain their own class.  If this scenario plays out, no one is served by the status quo.

-Steve

Matt2.8NJ:

 How is it domination when BSP has been won twice by an Evo compared to 21 by a Corvette?

You don't think it's telling that a car with only a couple years of development time can do just that?

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www.teamWTF.org
WDCR
AS C4 z51
ASP e46m3 "slower than an Evo" ;)

bren:

You don't think it's telling that a car with only a couple years of development time can do just that?

I'm happy Tom Berry kicked the crap out of a bunch of other cars at HPT.

However, I'm not seeing the Evo domination throughout the other 1000 SCCA events annually.

 Someone show me some conclusive data from events OTHER than HPT. 

 

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NNJR SCCA

2005 Evo MR BSP #76
1994 Miata R ES #76

bren:

You don't think it's telling that a car with only a couple years of development time can do just that?

 

Bren, I'm sorry if that came across harrsh.  I'm not dismissing your point.  But I want to state again that a lot more data points are necessary than just HPT.

 

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NNJR SCCA

2005 Evo MR BSP #76
1994 Miata R ES #76

Matt2.8NJ:

I'm happy Tom Berry kicked the crap out of a bunch of other cars at HPT.

 

That's a very sportsman-like comment...

If you take an Evo prepared to the level in which Tom Berry's cars is prepped (and that can be done by anyone willing to try), and a driver equally as talented as Tom (and there are others out there), the Evo will win every time.  Do I need another 1000 events to prove, no.  I've seen the car, and run against it, and it's pretty obvious the dominance the car has.

HPT...isn't it the goal in which those of us who choose to prep a Nationally competitive car?  I think HPT is the ideal place to base conclusions since it's the event during the Solo season that we aspire to compete and do well in... 

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Lee
FStock '08 Shelby GT-C

How is BSP to grow when no one will prep a car for the class that is dominated by one car?  Sure, Vettes won for many years, but that did not stop me from building a M3, nor did it stop Jason Uyeda from building a S2000, we thought they would be competitive, and they were.  But w/ the Evo winning, no one else wants to build a car to enter the class (see Windscreen's comment above).  About 90% of the '05 Nationals entrants did not return in '07.  IMHO, a BSP class at Nationals of 30+ cars consisting of Vettes, 350Z, M3, RX8, Miatas, S2000, 911, etc. is a little more appealing that a 12-car class of Evos.  I think the intent of the SCCA to have classes that are equally competitive w/ good diversity, along w/ growth potential...

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Lee
FStock '08 Shelby GT-C

leepic:

If you take an Evo prepared to the level in which Tom Berry's cars is prepped (and that can be done by anyone willing to try), and a driver equally as talented as Tom (and there are others out there), the Evo will win every time.  Do I need another 1000 events to prove, no.  I've seen the car, and run against it, and it's pretty obvious the dominance the car has.

Ok, assume the rally cars get kicked out...

If you take a Corvette prepared to the level in which Tom Berry's car was prepped (and that can be done by anyone willing to try), and a driver equally as talented as Tom (and there are others out there), the Corvette will win every time.  Do I need another 1000 events to prove, no.  I've seen the car, and run against it, and it's pretty obvious the dominance the car had.

One car is always faster than another.  There's no such thing as evenly matched cars, unless you want to go race in IROC.

There aren't enough rally cars to sustain the class, but there aren't enough BSP C4s and M3 sitting in garages to sustain the class either.  Get the Evo/STi kicked out, and BSP will go the way of BP.  No one will build a SP car if the class looks like it'll be canned in three years.  The answer to revitalize the class is to bring in new competition that can keep up with the rally cars.  The Z3/M Coupe is a good start.  Add to that the Solstice/Sky, E46, some of the various Porsches that aren't competitive in ASP (944, 928, etc), and maybe the MR2 and you may end up with a pretty good class.

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Dave Heinig

07 GXP Z0K (Thanks Rob!)

DaveH:

Get the Evo/STi kicked out, and BSP will go the way of BP. 

You keep saying this, but on what data are your basing this assumption? 

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www.teamWTF.org
WDCR
AS C4 z51
ASP e46m3 "slower than an Evo" ;)

DaveH:

There aren't enough rally cars to sustain the class, but there aren't enough BSP C4s and M3 sitting in garages to sustain the class either.  Get the Evo/STi kicked out, and BSP will go the way of BP.  No one will build a SP car if the class looks like it'll be canned in three years.  The answer to revitalize the class is to bring in new competition that can keep up with the rally cars.  The Z3/M Coupe is a good start.  Add to that the Solstice/Sky, E46, some of the various Porsches that aren't competitive in ASP (944, 928, etc), and maybe the MR2 and you may end up with a pretty good class.

WHAT??    At the '05 Nationals, the year before the Evo showed up, there were 29 cars in BSP!  And in '04 there were 34!  34 CARS!!!!!  And almost every one has left because of the Evo.  BSP can easily survive w/ the Evo gone.  My previous post listed a bunch of new cars already in the class that will be equally competitive if the Evo is moved.

Why are so many people so against the Evo in ASP?  It's obvious it can run, and beat, ASP times.  It's already been proven! 

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Lee
FStock '08 Shelby GT-C

bren:

DaveH:

Get the Evo/STi kicked out, and BSP will go the way of BP. 

You keep saying this, but on what data are your basing this assumption? 

leepic:

WHAT??    At the '05 Nationals, the year before the Evo showed up, there were 29 cars in BSP!  And in '04 there were 34!  34 CARS!!!!!  And almost every one has left because of the Evo.  BSP can easily survive w/ the Evo gone.  My previous post listed a bunch of new cars already in the class that will be equally competitive if the Evo is moved.

Why are so many people so against the Evo in ASP?  It's obvious it can run, and beat, ASP times.  It's already been proven! 

How many of those cars have been sitting in garages since 2005 just waiting for the Evo to get kicked out?  My guess is most of those people have parted out the cars and moved on.  Half the class last year was Evos and STi's.  If you kick them out, you cut the class in half for next year.  You may pick up some people, but I'll bet its not enough to make up for what you're losing.  If the rally cars go and the class doesn't make numbers at Nationals that year, do you really think anyone is going to start a build?  I don't. 

And it's also been proven that a CSP Miata can run ASP times.  You think that means it belongs in ASP?

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Dave Heinig

07 GXP Z0K (Thanks Rob!)

leepic:

How is BSP to grow when no one will prep a car for the class that is dominated by one car?  Sure, Vettes won for many years, but that did not stop me from building a M3, nor did it stop Jason Uyeda from building a S2000, we thought they would be competitive, and they were.  But w/ the Evo winning, no one else wants to build a car to enter the class (see Windscreen's comment above).  About 90% of the '05 Nationals entrants did not return in '07.  IMHO, a BSP class at Nationals of 30+ cars consisting of Vettes, 350Z, M3, RX8, Miatas, S2000, 911, etc. is a little more appealing that a 12-car class of Evos.  I think the intent of the SCCA to have classes that are equally competitive w/ good diversity, along w/ growth potential...

 

Uh... Jason Uyeda, in his s2000, has beaten Tom, in his evo, at local events. 

You guys probably should also be worried about someone prepping a mazda speed miata to CSP level specs, since Bill Schenker's CSP Miata has consistently beaten Tom's Evo in RAW time by about .2-.8 seconds for the last 6 months without turbocharged power.

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-Aaron G>

Timmons Subaru
ZZYZXmotorsports.com
www.ChaseCam.com

Aufaber:

You guys probably should also be worried about someone prepping a mazda speed miata to CSP level specs, since Bill Schenker's CSP Miata has consistently beaten Tom's Evo in RAW time by about .2-.8 seconds for the last 6 months without turbocharged power.

A CSP miata is a lot lighter than a BSP miata can ever be and has more options for gearing.   

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STS2 - 1990 Mazda Miata
Borrowing BS - RX-8