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Sounds like the same argument in DSP with the E36 BMW.  Dominate car leaves virtually no chance for the rest of the class.  Maybe all SP classes need to re-evaluated, there are so many newer cars coming out that don't fit into a 20 year old model. 

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Dudley M.
'06 MCS JCW --E36'SP, opps I mean DSP--
Oregon Region

I thought when the whole boost control issue was opened up, the understanding was that classes would be reviewed after the impact was assessed?   Seems that if the EVO was running stock boost (I'm assuming it isn't at all with 350whp) it might not be so dominant.

-Andy M.

Ain't it funny that these are the same arguments we heard when the M3's came to ESP, and we wanted them bumped to BSP.  "you'll kill us", "we'll never be competitive there", etc. 

 Seems to me the only ones thinking there isn't an issue of any sort are the ones in the cars the rest seem to believe might be better in some other class.  Typical. 

 As for the STi's not running with the Evo's, how does that change regardless of the class?  I dont' think it's does, and frankly I can't see how you'd split one 300HP AWD car that weighs 3000 lbs. from the other. 

 Marshall--I don't know you, and you don't know me.  But it seems you are way to shortsighted to see not one of us is saying Tom is slow and he should not have, or wasn't capable of winning regardless of the car.  You are so busy cheerleading you are missing the point that Tom wasn't driving said car last year, someone else was and would have won ASP.  You are missing the point that looking at raw times you'd have had a lot more rally-cars up there.  You are missing the point that, and with all due respect, nobody knows you but sees you results in this car.  You might be the next coming.  There were days when nobody "knew" me and I had to prove myself over and over before being accepted as more than a flash in the pan, or a kid with some talent in a good car.  You are missing the point the cars were in BSP (and winning) before boost was opened up, and that one provision in that move was that cars may be reclassed as necessary.  I still haven't seen what you think would make that necessary?   Maybe you aren't missing these points, maybe you are ignoring them.  I don't rightly know. 

 

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Sam Strano
Owner--Strano Performance Parts
800-729-1831

I also wanted to add, that of the 9 non-rally cars, at least one was a car that wasn't run last year, and brought out this year.  That's Jason Uyeda's car. Why he brought it out this year I'm not sure, but I'd bet if someone asked it would be to show his support for the class and there are cars around that would be run sans rally-cars.  I also bet you won't see it run much next year.  Another car was Jarrard Rahal.  Jarrard is new to autoxing, and while learning wasn't going to win this year.  Didn't much matter what he was driving, but since Bobby Rahal Honda is a sponsor (and his Dad), I'm not shocked to have seen him in an S2000.  Bear in mind I was around when he started in the very same car, that was bone stock.  It's smart for him to not be jumping around from car to car, but learning instead. 

Take the following names from BSP: Olsen, Uyeda, Wooton, Kritzler, Harrison, Rahal, Chadwick and Josephson from the results, and you know what you are left with?  AWDSP.  Nothing other than rally-cars.  So there already *is* an AWDSP, it's just now all the other cars in the class don't have a chance really. 

 Grice and Miller both only made one clean run per course, and they weren't either of their fastest runs.  Dump those cones, and both of them are past a BSP National Champion in the very same car he's won in before.  Does that make Harold unbeatable?  Should he only be allowed to win?  Hell no, but I think it shows that the argument that "A Corvette was second" is really kind of hollow.  We aren't so ignorant to realize that the results alone don't show the whole story.     

 

 

add to that Steve Wynveen's post that he never considered BSP w/rally cars for his S2000 and what does that leave?   

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Sam Strano
Owner--Strano Performance Parts
800-729-1831

Exactly!  SP classes were not re-assessed once boost was opened up. I know of not one car that was moved because of unlimited boost.

Even if Evo's ran stock boost, I still believe their dominance in BSP would be present... 

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Lee
FStock Shelby GT

01 FS Z28:

I also wanted to add, that of the 9 non-rally cars, at least one was a car that wasn't run last year, and brought out this year.  That's Jason Uyeda's car. Why he brought it out this year I'm not sure, but I'd bet if someone asked it would be to show his support for the class and there are cars around that would be

You mean Michael Wootan (MazdaSpeed Miata), not Jason Uyeda (S2000)....

IMHO, I only think Harold and Jason run this year to prove they could NOT catch the Evos.  All season long Jason ran another class, and Harold had much reservation about driving this year at all.  Per one (of many) conversation Harold and I had at Nationals, I seriously doubt he'll be running Nats in '08...

Look at what BSP could be: S2000, E36 M3, C4 Vet, MS Miata, P-car 911 (interesting move from ASP)....hell, throw the E46 M3 and C5 Vet (non-Z06) in the mix and BSP would be a bitchin' class to watch, and run!  IMHO, ALL equally competitive!  I should be on the SPAC...where do I sign up!

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Lee
FStock Shelby GT

I was on the SPAC, and if I still were, all the above cars would be on my list of BSP cars. Write your letters!!!

Chris Cox

01 FS Z28:

Ain't it funny that these are the same arguments we heard when the M3's came to ESP, and we wanted them bumped to BSP.  "you'll kill us", "we'll never be competitive there", etc. 

 Seems to me the only ones thinking there isn't an issue of any sort are the ones in the cars the rest seem to believe might be better in some other class.  Typical. 

 As for the STi's not running with the Evo's, how does that change regardless of the class?  I dont' think it's does, and frankly I can't see how you'd split one 300HP AWD car that weighs 3000 lbs. from the other. 

 Marshall--I don't know you, and you don't know me.  But it seems you are way to shortsighted to see not one of us is saying Tom is slow and he should not have, or wasn't capable of winning regardless of the car.  You are so busy cheerleading you are missing the point that Tom wasn't driving said car last year, someone else was and would have won ASP.  You are missing the point that looking at raw times you'd have had a lot more rally-cars up there.  You are missing the point that, and with all due respect, nobody knows you but sees you results in this car.  You might be the next coming.  There were days when nobody "knew" me and I had to prove myself over and over before being accepted as more than a flash in the pan, or a kid with some talent in a good car.  You are missing the point the cars were in BSP (and winning) before boost was opened up, and that one provision in that move was that cars may be reclassed as necessary.  I still haven't seen what you think would make that necessary?   Maybe you aren't missing these points, maybe you are ignoring them.  I don't rightly know. 

 

Sam, your points are well taken.  I'd hope my points aren't merely dismissed as cheerleading.  I'm simply trying to address the comments of the car being completely dominant.  I've driven all of the models of cars in question.  I am not the 'next coming' but I am half way intelligent when it comes to cars and feel I have a pretty good handle on the performance capabilites of the various cars.  I think there is a decent sized gap in the classing between BSP and ASP and a lot of newer cars fall in that gap.  All of which have been swept into ASP and are not competitive (e46, GXP) in order to protect the status quo.  As far as I know the rally cars were not winning in BSP before the boost rule change (they got moved to BSP because of the boost rule change).  4 different cars in the trophies doesn't exactly sound like domination.  I'm suprised no one is freaked out by the mazda speed miata.  That car scares me in the evo.

01 FS Z28:

You are missing the point the cars were in BSP (and winning) before boost was opened up...

Check your history book there, Sam. The cars were moved to BSP when boost was opened up.

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Karen Kraus
2005 SCCA SEDiv FS Champion
2007 SCCA DSL National Champion
2008 SCCA ProSolo L1 Champion

Marshall Grice:

 have a pretty good handle on the performance capabilites of the various cars.  I think there is a decent sized gap in the classing between BSP and ASP and a lot of newer cars fall in that gap.  All of which have been swept into ASP and are not competitive (e46, GXP) in order to protect the status quo.  As far as I know the rally cars were not winning in BSP before the boost rule change (they got moved to BSP because of the boost rule change). 

Rally cars were in ESP w/ stock boost and 245 tires, and they were too fast for that class therefore bumped to BSP.  As the transition occurred they get unlimited boost and 285's and leap-fogged passed BSP performance levels.  Throw in a top-notch driver (Tom), and a fair amount of test/tune and setup (you, per your co-drives praise), and the car is now dominant.

 

Marshall Grice:

4 different cars in the trophies doesn't exactly sound like domination.  I'm suprised no one is freaked out by the mazda speed miata.  That car scares me in the evo.

"...unlimited boost, and RECLASSIFICATION IF NECESSARY..."  If the car becomes dominant after substantial development, reclassing issues will arise, just like this thread...
 

 

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Lee
FStock Shelby GT

leepic:

01 FS Z28:

I also wanted to add, that of the 9 non-rally cars, at least one was a car that wasn't run last year, and brought out this year.  That's Jason Uyeda's car. Why he brought it out this year I'm not sure, but I'd bet if someone asked it would be to show his support for the class and there are cars around that would be

You mean Michael Wootan (MazdaSpeed Miata), not Jason Uyeda (S2000)....

IMHO, I only think Harold and Jason run this year to prove they could NOT catch the Evos.  All season long Jason ran another class, and Harold had much reservation about driving this year at all.  Per one (of many) conversation Harold and I had at Nationals, I seriously doubt he'll be running Nats in '08...

Look at what BSP could be: S2000, E36 M3, C4 Vet, MS Miata, P-car 911 (interesting move from ASP)....hell, throw the E46 M3 and C5 Vet (non-Z06) in the mix and BSP would be a bitchin' class to watch, and run!  IMHO, ALL equally competitive!  I should be on the SPAC...where do I sign up!

 

IMO the s2k belongs in CSP (jasons car is well setup and well driven yet still wouldn't have won CSP), and I think the competition would be fierce between e46 M3's, C5/C4, P-cars, and evos. 

EDIT: also competitive against Solstice gxp's.

And the ESP cars were also running 285's at the time.  The only change that happened when the cars got moved to BSP was the boost rule change, ie when the evos had BSP horsepower they go to bsp.

Marshall Grice:

IMO the s2k belongs in CSP (jasons car is well setup and well driven yet still wouldn't have won CSP), and I think the competition would be fierce between e46 M3's, C5/C4, P-cars, and evos. 

Hhmmm, no E36 M3 in that list (thanks)...or MS Miata...and the Evo does not belong...

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Lee
FStock Shelby GT

Marshall Grice:

 

Both evos at nationals had codrivers.  We ran first thing in the morning (56 degs when we started).  Only on toms last run were our tires up to a decent temp, and the evo is very good at putting heat into the tires.  I can't imagine how poorly Harolds car must have been performing with tires as cold as his, good driving or not.

SM2 ran first heat, on Tues/Wed, and Andy put down the fastest west course time by something with fenders.  RWD car.  Apparently you can get heat into the tires of RWD cars with power and lots of tire.  Last year, CSP ran 1st heat in even colder weather, and put more than 1 person in the top 10 in PAX for the event.

So basically, your excuse doesn't really hold any water.
 

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Jesse
-2002-2006 E-stock 93 MR2 (sold)
-2007-2008 XP Spyder

Marshall Grice:

And the ESP cars were also running 285's at the time.  The only change that happened when the cars got moved to BSP was the boost rule change, ie when the evos had BSP horsepower they go to bsp.

Evos had BSP HP when they were in ESP!  You're 2.0 4-banger has more HP than my friends ESP trophy winning Z28... 

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Lee
FStock Shelby GT

leepic:

Marshall Grice:

IMO the s2k belongs in CSP (jasons car is well setup and well driven yet still wouldn't have won CSP), and I think the competition would be fierce between e46 M3's, C5/C4, P-cars, and evos. 

Hhmmm, no E36 M3 in that list (thanks)...or MS Miata...and the Evo does not belong...

sorry, The current BSP cars were implicitly included.  en e36 with the e46 motor would be deadly.

129STS:

Marshall Grice:

 

Both evos at nationals had codrivers.  We ran first thing in the morning (56 degs when we started).  Only on toms last run were our tires up to a decent temp, and the evo is very good at putting heat into the tires.  I can't imagine how poorly Harolds car must have been performing with tires as cold as his, good driving or not.

SM2 ran first heat, on Tues/Wed, and Andy put down the fastest west course time by something with fenders.  RWD car.  Apparently you can get heat into the tires of RWD cars with power and lots of tire.  Last year, CSP ran 1st heat in even colder weather, and put more than 1 person in the top 10 in PAX for the event.

So basically, your excuse doesn't really hold any water.
 

both cars you mentioned had codrivers and weren't waiting 30mins between runs in ~60 deg weather.

leepic:

Marshall Grice:

And the ESP cars were also running 285's at the time.  The only change that happened when the cars got moved to BSP was the boost rule change, ie when the evos had BSP horsepower they go to bsp.

Evos had BSP HP when they were in ESP!  You're 2.0 4-banger has more HP than my friends ESP trophy winning Z28... 

270whp is not bsp power for a car that weighs 3180w/driver.

leepic:

Rally cars were in ESP w/ stock boost and 245 tires...

Joel's car was on 285s when it was in ESP. It was one of the major differences between his car and Rod McGeorge's car (which was being driven by Junior and Courtney) at the Atlanta ProSolo in 2005.

And the boost rule in *SP is really not "unlimited boost." This isn't drag racing where people are swapping motors between runs.

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Karen Kraus
2005 SCCA SEDiv FS Champion
2007 SCCA DSL National Champion
2008 SCCA ProSolo L1 Champion

Marshall Grice:

leepic:

Marshall Grice:

And the ESP cars were also running 285's at the time.  The only change that happened when the cars got moved to BSP was the boost rule change, ie when the evos had BSP horsepower they go to bsp.

Evos had BSP HP when they were in ESP!  You're 2.0 4-banger has more HP than my friends ESP trophy winning Z28... 

270whp is not bsp power for a car that weighs 3180w/driver.

...and 250whp 3100w/driver (my car) is bsp?  whatever...

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Lee
FStock Shelby GT