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For all you non-rally car BSP drivers who think the class is broken, or if you're an innocent by-stander who feels the same, or a past competitor who

has their car parked in the garage like me, this is a public plea to ask you to send a letter to the SEB NOW to state your case/opinions about how the class

can be fixed so that ALL parties involved can compete on an equal playing field! 

34 BSP drivers in '04 to nine non-rally cars in '07 should be an initial indication that something is wrong... 

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Lee
BSP '95 M3, retired
FS '07 Shelby GT, shredding tires w/ Jason B. =8-)

What are you proposing?  You leave this request kind of open ended.  Harold Olsen has consistently performed well. 

 What needs to happen is that they need to not schedule BSP for first heat in 55 degree weather.  It's not fun 2 years in a row, and I have AWD.

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Justin R - 99 BSP
zzyzxmotorsports.com, agileauto.com, spun-autosports.com, xtperformance.com, 6GunRacing.com
2005-2008 Steel Cities SCCA - Solo Board

crystalhelix:

What are you proposing?  You leave this request kind of open ended.  Harold Olsen has consistently performed well. 

 What needs to happen is that they need to not schedule BSP for first heat in 55 degree weather.  It's not fun 2 years in a row, and I have AWD.

 

The request is so that the SEB and SPAC have opinions... not that everyone is united on a single idea.  If the SEB and SPAC get a TON of letters all calling for some sort of change, they can pick and choose the good ideas and hopefully put them into practice.  It's supposed to be open ended.

Typically, the SEB and *AC's have problems with getting information from the members.  We would much rather *** on forums like this one than write letters to the people in charge.

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Jesse
-2002-2006 E-stock 93 MR2 (sold)
-2007-2008 XP Spyder

Has anyone considered limiting tire/wheel sizes on the AWD cars?  I'm just throwing it out there as a potential option.

 

Corey Ridgick #89 STU

Its not just BSP that needs fixing; problem is how to do it with out add a new class!  BSP, CSP and DSP all have quite a few cars that are not competitive, some new cars in FSP could be overdogs; reorganizing  all four classes would be a good start, changing the rules, such as limiting wheel size would go against the "rule stability" that SP has had. So what cars would be in which class if any/all cars could be moved?

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DSP #29

Lets look at the classes here.

ASP - gap to 2nd - 1.6 secs - 22 drivers
BSP - gap to 2nd - 1.4 secs - 19 drivers
CSP - gap to 2nd - .4   secs - 26 drivers
DSP - gap to 2nd - 1.4 secs - 32 drivers
ESP - gap to 2nd - 1.1 secs - 19 drivers
FSP - gap to 2nd - .4   secs - 34 drivers

So what's wrong with BSP?  In CSP 2nd place was the codriver of the same car.  The gap from 1st to the next car was .86 secs.  So really, what's wrong with BSP?

Lee, if you think you're car is too slow for the class, petition to have your car moved to a slower class.  If you think you're car is competitive with C4 vettes, then your car is still competitive in BSP as it is now.  Theoretically, you should have taken second place in BSP this year if you think you can beat Harold (you beat him by .73 secs in '05).  That's a lot better then a 350z in BS.  Classing every car made after the year 2000 that has more then 300HP in ASP is not going to grow the sport. 

Marshall Grice:

So what's wrong with BSP?

19 Drivers vs. 34....that's what's wrong.

 True or not, the perception is that the rally cars dominate the class.  As a C4 owner I can tell you for certain that I have no plan of building a BSP car, even though in the long run it would probably be easier/cheaper than staying in AS.

 

 

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www.teamWTF.org
WDCR
AS C4 z51
ASP e46m3 "slower than an Evo" ;)

Corey Ridgick:

Has anyone considered limiting tire/wheel sizes on the AWD cars?  I'm just throwing it out there as a potential option.

That's an interesting thought Corey - maybe limit awd cars to a 275 or 285 width tire in SP (just throwing out a size), while fwd/rwd can run as wide a tire as they like.

Another thought is to move down certain non-competitive ASP cars to BSP and put them on the same line as formerly competitive cars.

For example, the E46 M3 is dead-in-the-water in ASP, if it's moved to BSP and put on the same line as the E36 M3, those owners who wish to continue campaigning their cars in the class, could swap in the E46 M3 motor, and make 350+rwhp after *SP legal mods are performed.

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Chike Dellimore - Blue Ridge/Washington DC Regions
2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT Mazda RX-8 (B-stock)
Former 2006 Steel Gray 5spd WRX (D-stock)

"Between now and Nats, f!ck seat time - I'm working on crazy!!!"

When rules are written, the have to apply category wide, not just in a certain class.  So, unless you want all other AWD cars to be wheel and tire limited, that really doesn't work well. 

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Sam Strano
Owner--Strano Performance Parts
800-729-1831

Chiketkd:

Another thought is to move down certain non-competitive ASP cars to BSP and put them on the same line as formerly competitive cars.

For example, the E46 M3 is dead-in-the-water in ASP, if it's moved to BSP and put on the same line as the E36 M3, those owners who wish to continue campaigning their cars in the class, could swap in the E46 M3 motor, and make 350+rwhp after *SP legal mods are performed.

I think that is a good idea.  I think the e46 in ASP is the writing on the wall for the EVO, meaning a car that is really damn cool that gets classed way out of its league because everyone is afraid of it.

bren:

Marshall Grice:

So what's wrong with BSP?

19 Drivers vs. 34....that's what's wrong.

BSP was down to 29 in 05 before the rally cars showed up and were only at 18 in 04.

I see the number of cars in STU (aka BSP lite) as a potential feed stock for BSP.  If the cars are overclassed in ASP it's going to kill any potential progression to SP from ST.

Marshall Grice:

Lets look at the classes here.

ASP - gap to 2nd - 1.6 secs - 22 drivers
BSP - gap to 2nd - 1.4 secs - 19 drivers
CSP - gap to 2nd - .4   secs - 26 drivers
DSP - gap to 2nd - 1.4 secs - 32 drivers
ESP - gap to 2nd - 1.1 secs - 19 drivers
FSP - gap to 2nd - .4   secs - 34 drivers

So what's wrong with BSP?  In CSP 2nd place was the codriver of the same car.  The gap from 1st to the next car was .86 secs.  So really, what's wrong with BSP?

Lee, if you think you're car is too slow for the class, petition to have your car moved to a slower class.  If you think you're car is competitive with C4 vettes, then your car is still competitive in BSP as it is now.  Theoretically, you should have taken second place in BSP this year if you think you can beat Harold (you beat him by .73 secs in '05).  That's a lot better then a 350z in BS.  Classing every car made after the year 2000 that has more then 300HP in ASP is not going to grow the sport. 

It's only one event. The  numbers are useless. You need to look at ASP and BSP over a year. Last year would be good enough . What was the differential first day to second day? If you are leading nationals by a second on the first day, you tend not to need to go as fast the second day.

 IMO BSP should be C4 corvette, S2000, Mazdaspeed Miata, E36/46 BMW's. The Evo is to different to go to ASP, it needs it's own class.

 

Go look at the rules in categories both above and below Street Prepared.  Both Street Touring and Prepared have class level tire/wheel width restrictions.  It CAN be done beneath the category level, but rules makers may not chose to for good reason, for example if the rallye cars are reclassed, the class level wheel and/or tire restriction should also likely be lifted and potentially re-applied to the new class.  That could require up to 3 rules changes:  1) classing change 2) wheel tire restriction removal (current class) and 3) wheel/tire restriction re-applied (new proposed class).  Pretty nasty and good reason not to do the class level wheel/tire restrictions, but certainly an option.

01 FS Z28:

When rules are written, the have to apply category wide, not just in a certain class.  So, unless you want all other AWD cars to be wheel and tire limited, that really doesn't work well. 

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Jeff B
98 Integra Type R - STX
07 Civic Si Sedan

Prepared has always has those restriction in place.  SP hasn't.  Using ST rules as a reason for SP to do something is frankly silly.  ST has a lot of issues with rules that still haven't been addressed, and just because they have limits doens't mean SP should.  And SP never has, one of the things that makes SP, SP is that you can plow on the biggest stuff you want. 

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Sam Strano
Owner--Strano Performance Parts
800-729-1831

Marshall Grice:

Lets look at the classes here.

ASP - gap to 2nd - 1.6 secs - 22 drivers
BSP - gap to 2nd - 1.4 secs - 19 drivers
CSP - gap to 2nd - .4   secs - 26 drivers
DSP - gap to 2nd - 1.4 secs - 32 drivers
ESP - gap to 2nd - 1.1 secs - 19 drivers
FSP - gap to 2nd - .4   secs - 34 drivers

So what's wrong with BSP?  In CSP 2nd place was the codriver of the same car.  The gap from 1st to the next car was .86 secs.  So really, what's wrong with BSP?

Lee, if you think you're car is too slow for the class, petition to have your car moved to a slower class.  If you think you're car is competitive with C4 vettes, then your car is still competitive in BSP as it is now.  Theoretically, you should have taken second place in BSP this year if you think you can beat Harold (you beat him by .73 secs in '05).  That's a lot better then a 350z in BS.  Classing every car made after the year 2000 that has more then 300HP in ASP is not going to grow the sport. 

ASP - difference was the driver

CSP - close finish

DSP - ran in wet conditions, not a good comparison

ESP - again, a great drive

FSP - also close

You want to talk about theories...If 3rd in BSP (you) and 4th in BSP (Aaron Miller) did not cone, the BSP margin of victory is 0.2, w/ all 3 top spots being Evo, Evo, Evo... And Harold, a past National Champion (also admitting he drove well this year) finishes 4th to rally cars!   Aaron Miller does not appear to have a lot of seat time in the car, and who is Marshall Grice ;-) ?  Yet they had the time in Evo's to beat a good driver in a built car who had good runs...

My M3 is not too slow for BSP, the Evo is too fast!!  I WANT to run in BSP, that's why I've kept my car.  And what does year and HP have to do w/ classing?  Past performance at MANY events warrants the move of the Evo out of BSP.  I'm not the only person who feels this way, I'm just the one saying it out loud!  As long as there are top-tier drivers in Evos in BSP, no other make/model will win.  I can only imagine what a new Evo X built will do to BSP...

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Lee
BSP '95 M3, retired
FS '07 Shelby GT, shredding tires w/ Jason B. =8-)

If you want to focus on Nationals.

Tom 45.615 41.957

Jr.    45.647 41.848

Smells like ASP to me.

CHRISFP78:

If you want to focus on Nationals.

Tom 45.615 41.957

Jr.    45.647 41.848

Smells like ASP to me.

THANK YOU!  My point exactly... 

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Lee
BSP '95 M3, retired
FS '07 Shelby GT, shredding tires w/ Jason B. =8-)

leepic:

ASP - difference was the driver

CSP - close finish

DSP - ran in wet conditions, not a good comparison

ESP - again, a great drive

FSP - also close

You want to talk about theories...If 3rd in BSP (you) and 4th in BSP (Aaron Miller) did not cone, the BSP margin of victory is 0.2, w/ all 3 top spots being Evo, Evo, Evo... And Harold, a past National Champion (also admitting he drove well this year) finishes 4th to rally cars!  

 

Both evos at nationals had codrivers.  We ran first thing in the morning (56 degs when we started).  Only on toms last run were our tires up to a decent temp, and the evo is very good at putting heat into the tires.  I can't imagine how poorly Harolds car must have been performing with tires as cold as his, good driving or not.  Looking at the El toro pro results from this year (the only other place tom and harold raced, also had decent conditions) the margin was only .5 secs, well within the normal range of their competition level (and that's at the PRO!!! where we carry a .6 sec launch advantage).

 I do like your method of justification for the other classes performance though, it was either close or great drivers...except for BSP.

So in this the Subaru's will be blanketed with the EVO's even though it seems the EVO is a singular dominant car in the class.  It seems many people can drive those cars well and I wasn't even close to catching them.  If you move the STi to ASP you can count me out of going to nationals or being intersted in any national events.  The next class for me is SM or prepared and I haven't seen an "ASP fast" STi yet.  Sorry but you'd save me a lot of money next year.

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Justin R - 99 BSP
zzyzxmotorsports.com, agileauto.com, spun-autosports.com, xtperformance.com, 6GunRacing.com
2005-2008 Steel Cities SCCA - Solo Board

Marshall Grice:

leepic:

ASP - difference was the driver

CSP - close finish

DSP - ran in wet conditions, not a good comparison

ESP - again, a great drive

FSP - also close

You want to talk about theories...If 3rd in BSP (you) and 4th in BSP (Aaron Miller) did not cone, the BSP margin of victory is 0.2, w/ all 3 top spots being Evo, Evo, Evo... And Harold, a past National Champion (also admitting he drove well this year) finishes 4th to rally cars!  

 

Both evos at nationals had codrivers.  We ran first thing in the morning (56 degs when we started).  Only on toms last run were our tires up to a decent temp, and the evo is very good at putting heat into the tires.  I can't imagine how poorly Harolds car must have been performing with tires as cold as his, good driving or not.  Looking at the El toro pro results from this year (the only other place tom and harold raced, also had decent conditions) the margin was only .5 secs, well within the normal range of their competition level (and that's at the PRO!!! where we carry a .6 sec launch advantage).

 I do like your method of justification for the other classes performance though, it was either close or great drivers...except for BSP.

Don't get me started on the Pros topic, that's even worse...

Tom is a great driver, I was made aware of that many years ago, and my opinion of that has not changed.  He deserves the win...

I do no, repeat DO NOT, want the Evos moved to a class where they are uncompetitive.  They should be in a class where they are equally competitive w/ the other cars there.  As it stands, they have proven to be dominant in BSP in the past 2 years at all the major events that I'm aware of.  Prior to '06, BSP had a nice, competitive, level playing field.  Since the Evos entered the class it's been pretty much one sided.  They run ASP times, often beating them, and quite frequently can be right on the heels of SM.
 

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Lee
BSP '95 M3, retired
FS '07 Shelby GT, shredding tires w/ Jason B. =8-)