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In another thread, someone wondered if CM and FM should be recombined.

Please, no flames or rants.  Just offer some reasoned arguments.

 

 

Using the 2007 PAX numbers, if a CM runs a course in 55 seconds, an F500 should run it in a tick over 56 seconds.  A SoloVee is another 2 seconds slower.  The rules changes for SoloVees for 2008 should narrow the gap to the F500's, maybe even achieve parity, but we won't know for a while.  If the F500 get what they are asking the CRB for, they will blow away a CM.

Should FM and CM be combined?  Sure, if the CM guys want inlet restrictors and added weight.  And there'll be peace in the Middle East before that happens.

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2002 Mercedes C230k, retired, 2005 Nationals STU DFL

1969 Beach Solo Vee and 1985 Lynx B Solo Vee

I'm new to FM this year so the following is based on limited knowledge of the 2 classes. CM ran second heat and FM ran first heat so temperature conditions were similar though a bit more rubber was down for FM. In glancing at the West Course times for each class, that was the dry day for CM iirc, the fastest  F440 was 44.388 (raw) 44.682 (clean), F500 was 45.297(clean), Solo Vee 46.039 (raw, I coned all 3 west course runs) and CM 44.897 (clean). We were 80 lbs oveweight on a 1000 lb. min. with me in the car and on tires with about 40 runs on them. On fresher tires and pulling my head out of my rearend the first day, I think there was around a 45.7 based on how the 46.0 felt. Dropping the 80 lbs suggests another tenth or 2 drop for a theoretical best of 45.5. Based on the West results, that 45.5 would be about 1 second off fastest clean time on the course of CM/FM. I also looked at last year and compared Scott Nardin in a Vee versus Kramer in a 440, the difference was about 1 sec. per day. CM was about 1 sec/day faster than FM last year but I don't remember weather conditions for each run group.

What's it all mean? For Solo Vee owner/drivers in current tune, the combined class appears to push them farther back in the standings. For CM/F440/F500, ?????? Will the Solo Vee rule changes help? Yes but to what degree is still uncertain. I told Lynn I will stay for 1 more year to see how the changes affect the car in its current class. Now to remember Nationals is a 2 day event and BOTH days are important.

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Andy Hohl

Thanks Kyle for the drive in the Shelby GT this year

Lynn:

Using the 2007 PAX numbers, if a CM runs a course in 55 seconds, an F500 should run it in a tick over 56 seconds.  A SoloVee is another 2 seconds slower.  The rules changes for SoloVees for 2008 should narrow the gap to the F500's, maybe even achieve parity, but we won't know for a while.  If the F500 get what they are asking the CRB for, they will blow away a CM.

Should FM and CM be combined?  Sure, if the CM guys want inlet restrictors and added weight.  And there'll be peace in the Middle East before that happens.

Two points: 

- The disparity of suspension designs (or lack thereof in the case of the F500) would introduce alot of site dependency, even more than FM already has now.  CM clearly has the best suspension out of the three and would dominate at sites like Peru, but at smooth sites (like HPT) the F500 would be a bit better, but still not as fast as a FF.  The Vees are pretty much toast either way in this scenario.

- Nobody likes to add weight to their car so that they can compete against slower cars.

Bret

64ES

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Bret Wallace
64ES
2008 ES NE Divisonal Champion
Founding Member of the National Association of Matthew Braun LookAlikes

In road racing F500 appears to have caught FF1600. For Solo it may be a "horses for courses" situation. As I said in the other thread, "back in the day" before the class was split, the best F440's/Solo V's were higher in the trophies at FORBES than some of the trophy FF's and S2's. At that time only the very fastest FF's and S2's could beat the fastest F440's and Solo V's. If F500's are faster and Solo V's will soon be faster then the combined class will be bigger and the trophies will go deeper. Personally I think it would help both classes at the local and Tour level to force us to compete with each other for first place. I remember great competition at various events between the various types of cars when we were in the same class. 

I suspect (meaning that I don't really know) that it is harder to setup an FM car to be fast than it is to set up a CM car to be fast. A lot of different setup approaches seem to work for CM. I don't know if this is true for FM cars. 

As far as driving "talent needed to be fast", I know my CM car is very easy to drive fairly fast. I don't know how hard it is to drive an FM fairly fast.

Dick

CM 85 FF1600

In the other thread there were cost comparisons between CM and FM that make sense.

However: What does it cost to buy and develop a Nationally competitive FM car from scratch (i.e. not already set up as a nationally competitive Solo II car)?

How much labor and fabrication skills does it take to develop a nationally competitive FM car? For comparison a CM car is basically "bolt on" using standard stuff.

The reason for the questions is that it appears that FM is more heavy duty engineering and fabrication, etc. than CM (which I consider "Stock with lots of suspension and gearing options")

Dick

CM 85 FF 1600 (85 Van Diemen)

Trying to recall the FF1600, S2000, F500 F440, FV1200, and SoloVee1600 CM/DM/FM history (please edit/update as necessary):

CM (1990-1992) FF1600, S2000, F440, FV1200, and SoloVee1600.

CM (1993-1996) FF1600, S2000, and F440

DM (1993-1996) FV1200, and SoloVee1600

CM (1997-2007) FF1600 and S2000

FM (1997-2007) F440, FV1200, and SoloVee1600

Not sure when the F500 joined FM (2005?), so I neglected to included. I also do not know when FST1600 becomes FM legal (2008?).

Returning to Jim's question; Is it time to recombine CM/FM? I think not. From a participation point of view, FM seems fairly "healthy" at the moment. FM rule changes are being enacted to help the SoloVee1600(1950?) and allow the FST1600 which should help retain or grow the Vee based contingent.

A lot of work went into the creation of FM (i.e break out from CM/DM), so it's hard to imagine the FM competitors "welcoming" the FF1600/S2000. Plus, as pointed out above, CM would need to be slowed down (not something I favor!) to make this idea (somewhat) tolerable to the FM participants.

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-pru-

96SM2:

I'm new to FM this year so the following is based on limited knowledge of the 2 classes. CM ran second heat and FM ran first heat so temperature conditions were similar though a bit more rubber was down for FM. In glancing at the West Course times for each class, that was the dry day for CM iirc, the fastest  F440 was 44.388 (raw) 44.682 (clean), F500 was 45.297(clean), Solo Vee 46.039 (raw, I coned all 3 west course runs) and CM 44.897 (clean). We were 80 lbs oveweight on a 1000 lb. min. with me in the car and on tires with about 40 runs on them. On fresher tires and pulling my head out of my rearend the first day, I think there was around a 45.7 based on how the 46.0 felt. Dropping the 80 lbs suggests another tenth or 2 drop for a theoretical best of 45.5. Based on the West results, that 45.5 would be about 1 second off fastest clean time on the course of CM/FM. I also looked at last year and compared Scott Nardin in a Vee versus Kramer in a 440, the difference was about 1 sec. per day. CM was about 1 sec/day faster than FM last year but I don't remember weather conditions for each run group.

What's it all mean? For Solo Vee owner/drivers in current tune, the combined class appears to push them farther back in the standings. For CM/F440/F500, ?????? Will the Solo Vee rule changes help? Yes but to what degree is still uncertain. I told Lynn I will stay for 1 more year to see how the changes affect the car in its current class. Now to remember Nationals is a 2 day event and BOTH days are important.

 The above listing of the F440 running 44.388 (raw) 44.682 (clean) is wrong.  I was in a F500, as I was last year.  Last year a F440 was in the trophies, this year the F440's were down in the results.  Hopefully a F440 will be in the trophies next year.

Running Thurs/Fri was a benefit as there was more rubber down, which helped my times.

I do not see CM and FM rejoining. 

I am also looking forward to seeing what the SoloVee rule changes brings.  It will be interesting.

Gary Kramar

 

 

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Gary Kramar

'89 FM F500
'07 FM F440

akaspinout:

I am also looking forward to seeing what the SoloVee rule changes brings.  It will be interesting.

Gary Kramar

Hey Gary,

What are the answers to Dick Rasmussen's ???'s
"However: What does it cost to buy and develop a Nationally competitive FM car from scratch (i.e. not already set up as a nationally competitive Solo II car)?

How much labor and fabrication skills does it take to develop a nationally competitive FM car? For comparison a CM car is basically "bolt on" using standard stuff."

I'm sure several folks are curious....  

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'91 LX 5.0 - '88 Coupe 5.0 - '88 Coupe 5.0
AutocrossPictures.net
SCCA TX / ERSCC

cinder:

akaspinout:

I am also looking forward to seeing what the SoloVee rule changes brings.  It will be interesting.

Gary Kramar

Hey Gary,

What are the answers to Dick Rasmussen's ???'s
"However: What does it cost to buy and develop a Nationally competitive FM car from scratch (i.e. not already set up as a nationally competitive Solo II car)?

How much labor and fabrication skills does it take to develop a nationally competitive FM car? For comparison a CM car is basically "bolt on" using standard stuff."

I'm sure several folks are curious....  

Lets see, for a year to 2 year old ex-Road Race (RR) F500 you are looking at approx. $10,000.  Gearing, alignment, suspension geometry, etc. would need to be changed to make it competitive in Solo.

As you look at older cars the price can be as low as $1,000 for an '80's or early '90's F440/F500 on up.  The older the car the more work will be required to make it competitive.  Suspension design and geometry is the biggest area for improvement, because if you can't get the car to handle then you won't be competitive.  And the cost of these changes will vary on how much you do, but say over $1,000.  It's hard to say how much it would actually cost as trial and error will play in what works and what won't.

Labor and fabrication skills (along with some engineering design) definitely help as the older the car is the more work will need to be done to make it competitive.  Over 14 years of running the same F440/F500 my dad has redone the rear suspension once, changed the front end ackerman, built a new subframe to hold the F500 motor as the F440 subframe wouldn't work with the bigger motor, and a few other things I probably wasn't told about.  He has also kept it in one piece as parts break or crack from running it as much as we do.  We have 3 drivers in the car at most events and over the past 3 years we have put over 700 runs on the car.

Seat time is very important in these cars as each car has it's own quirks and handling characteristics, and the better you know what the car can and can't do, the better you will do in these cars.  This is true in any car you run, but with an F440/F500 you can drive them fast pretty quickly but to get that last few tenth's takes time.

Gary Kramar

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Gary Kramar

'89 FM F500
'07 FM F440

akaspinout:

96SM2:

I'm new to FM this year so the following is based on limited knowledge of the 2 classes. CM ran second heat and FM ran first heat so temperature conditions were similar though a bit more rubber was down for FM. In glancing at the West Course times for each class, that was the dry day for CM iirc, the fastest  F440 was 44.388 (raw) 44.682 (clean), F500 was 45.297(clean), Solo Vee 46.039 (raw, I coned all 3 west course runs) and CM 44.897 (clean). We were 80 lbs oveweight on a 1000 lb. min. with me in the car and on tires with about 40 runs on them. On fresher tires and pulling my head out of my rearend the first day, I think there was around a 45.7 based on how the 46.0 felt. Dropping the 80 lbs suggests another tenth or 2 drop for a theoretical best of 45.5. Based on the West results, that 45.5 would be about 1 second off fastest clean time on the course of CM/FM. I also looked at last year and compared Scott Nardin in a Vee versus Kramer in a 440, the difference was about 1 sec. per day. CM was about 1 sec/day faster than FM last year but I don't remember weather conditions for each run group.

What's it all mean? For Solo Vee owner/drivers in current tune, the combined class appears to push them farther back in the standings. For CM/F440/F500, ?????? Will the Solo Vee rule changes help? Yes but to what degree is still uncertain. I told Lynn I will stay for 1 more year to see how the changes affect the car in its current class. Now to remember Nationals is a 2 day event and BOTH days are important.

 The above listing of the F440 running 44.388 (raw) 44.682 (clean) is wrong.  I was in a F500, as I was last year.  Last year a F440 was in the trophies, this year the F440's were down in the results.  Hopefully a F440 will be in the trophies next year.

Running Thurs/Fri was a benefit as there was more rubber down, which helped my times.

I do not see CM and FM rejoining. 

I am also looking forward to seeing what the SoloVee rule changes brings.  It will be interesting.

Gary Kramar

 

 

 

Gary,

I apologize for the error and thank you for providing the correct information. It’s there in the results and I just skipped right over it.

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Andy Hohl

Thanks Kyle for the drive in the Shelby GT this year

No problem.  Up till a few years ago I was in a F440, then we put in the Rotax.  I almost drove a F440 at this years Nationals, but didn't.  I am shooting for running the F440 next year.

Gary

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Gary Kramar

'89 FM F500
'07 FM F440