SCCAForums.com

Andy Hollis:

You keep bringing that same point up but it's not valid.

Sure, that's what a Z06 costs now.  But it did not when it was new, and the SS field was quite full at that time.

Just because *you* did not buy one until the price came down does not mean others would/did not.  Should SS be the new ES, where the price of entry has to be low before a car can go there?  I think not.

At some point, new cars will have to be let in.  That said, there are plenty of examples when certain overdogs were excluded straight to ASP to allow the status quo to exist for a little longer.  Then, when other manufacturers caught up and some real competition could exist, all were invited to the party. 

Note that this situation is unique to SS, since it is the fastest Stock class.  More classes isn't the answer to everything. 

--Andy 

Well, if Mike was referring to when the Z06 first came out, then point taken.  I was thinking of more recently with the C6Z and GT3 in the class.  Right now the class is big because of the mix of cars plus the cheapness of the C5Z.

Also, I'm not 100% buying in to the thought that the class will remain well subscribed if a much more expensive car becomes dominant (like a $60k Lotus).  The C5Z was very popular at the time because it was such a huge step up from anything we had seen previously, even in that price range.  Will a $60k Lotus or a $100k+ 997 GT3 have that same appeal.  I'd put money on that they will not, no more than the Solstice did in CS.

And as I've said before, I agree that classes need to move on, but exactly why would we want to risk hosing up the most popular class in Solo???  Put the cars in later once the class starts to loose popularity.

Dave G. 

I remember the first "million dollar" autocross grid. 1986 Nationals for the heats which ran B Stock and a couple of small classes including BPL. A huge number of C4 Corvettes. I "did the math" at the time assuming about $30K each for the C4's (including tires, wheels, prep, etc.). I wonder what an SS grid at Nats adds up to these days.

Dick

Dave: I was talking about when the ZO6 came out and then the GT3 thing.

A class will always be popular if you freeze new competition out of the class as a rule. It will always have high numbers of entries in that situation. Heck! I might go get a 04 ZO6 if we freeze the current SS.

My good friend just bought a 04 ZO6 that he will use for almost exclusive solo use but that doesn't change the fact that new cars are coming out and need to be classed.(UGH! do I sound like Andy now?!?!)

Our local Porsche guru is pissed that the new GT3 isn't allowed in SS. I have watched one run(in ASP) but it was on stock shocks and looked poor over the bumps at Packwood. The gearing is better though so the potential exists for a new top dog hence the fear when you factor in the $$$.

I live right by Microsoft so I have had to pleasure to race against some pretty cool cars. I had the "pleasure" of losing at a tour(Seattle 99?) against a 360 Ferrari in SS with my TTRX7R1 and people were telling me to PROTEST!  based on # delivered to North America but I thought then and still do think that car belongs in SS so I didn't protest.

I think a class called XS or SSS could have merit but would that class exist forever or do you mess with the current SS? More classes that have high entry #'s are not the end of the world from an event standpoint.

What do I know though? I wish we would add 2 days to Nationals with less run groups per day and put it in the summer so the whole thing could be a little more relaxed and social and aren't forced to get up at the crack of dawn after being out till 2:30am "dancing" every night.

FM

Fastmike:

I think a class called XS or SSS could have merit but would that class exist forever or do you mess with the current SS? More classes that have high entry #'s are not the end of the world from an event standpoint.

Clarification my point about more classes:  More classes that are well-subscribed (as you suggest) is not a bad thing *if* it could happen.  But to add an additional class that is well-subscribed means that you must be adding to total participation.  Otherwise it's a zero-sum game where those people in that new class have to come from some other class.  And then you have gained nothing, just moved stuff around to suit a different set of sensibilities. 

Of course, if a couple of whoefully-undersubscribed P or M classes went away...

--Andy

 

So I think this may have been discussed somewhere in the previous 18 pages, but thoughts on the new Cobalt SS in DS?

 Edmunds.com test: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=125288?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopanel..1.*

 260hp at 5300rpm/260tq at 2000rpm

1/4 mile 14.0 at 103mph

Slalom 69.2mph (compared to 69.3mph for Mazdaspeed 3)

New wheels 18x7.5 (vs. 18x7 for old SS)

200lbs less weight than Mazdaspeed 3

Torsen LSD (optional...why not standard?)

 Additional changes to front suspension geometry, knuckles, etc.

Not that I'm thinking of getting one at all, but seems as if with all of the above changes might make it a possible competitor depending on what size tire can fit.  Just happen to come across the article and thought it could make for some more bench racing.  I'm still waiting for April to actually run an event.

---

2003 Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V
Sponsored by AgileAuto.com
D.C./Philly Region - 3 STX
cardomain.com/id/piknockout

One more bit of info to add about the new turbo Cobalt SS - in this Autoweek article: http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080307/FREE/787808156/1528/newsletter01

GM hot shoe John Heinricy drove one of these cars--with the big wing--to a record 8:22.85-minute lap around the Nurburgring's Nordschleife, beating the old record for the subcompact class by 13 seconds.

Not that a fast Nurburgring lap time = a fast solo car. But this car is definitley an improvement in everyway over the predecessor.

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Chike Dellimore - Blue Ridge/Washington DC Regions
2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT Mazda RX-8 (B-stock)
Former 2006 Steel Gray 5spd WRX (D-stock)

"Between now and Nats, f!ck seat time - I'm working on crazy!!!"

I plugged in the gear ratios in, and it looks like it can do 70 in 2nd gear with the stock 225/40-18 tires (goes to 69 with 245/35-18 hoosiers)

http://tinyurl.com/yrnwft

It just looks like they put the Solstice GXP motor/turbo setup in the Cobalt.  I wonder if they will have a Z0K package to spice things up.  Should make DS interesting.

---

89/189 STS/STX '89 Civic Si

Andy Hollis:

Fastmike:

I think a class called XS or SSS could have merit but would that class exist forever or do you mess with the current SS? More classes that have high entry #'s are not the end of the world from an event standpoint.

Clarification my point about more classes:  More classes that are well-subscribed (as you suggest) is not a bad thing *if* it could happen.  But to add an additional class that is well-subscribed means that you must be adding to total participation.  Otherwise it's a zero-sum game where those people in that new class have to come from some other class.  And then you have gained nothing, just moved stuff around to suit a different set of sensibilities. 

Of course, if a couple of whoefully-undersubscribed P or M classes went away...

--Andy

I kinda sorta agree with you, Andy, except if we stop granting stock classes for new top-end cars, we are truncating participation to a degree over time.  Are we never going to have any more capable cars in a stock class than the current SS group?  At some point the newer top cars need to have a stock class to play in, and an XS class is the way to do that without destroying a very popular SS class.  And yeah, participation might be low for a year or two (me thinks 10-20 cars initially) but that still beats a bunch of other classes, as you noted in particular P and M classes...

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Jer
#196 ES
#187 SS retired

Surferjer:

Andy Hollis:

Fastmike:

I think a class called XS or SSS could have merit but would that class exist forever or do you mess with the current SS? More classes that have high entry #'s are not the end of the world from an event standpoint.

Clarification my point about more classes:  More classes that are well-subscribed (as you suggest) is not a bad thing *if* it could happen.  But to add an additional class that is well-subscribed means that you must be adding to total participation.  Otherwise it's a zero-sum game where those people in that new class have to come from some other class.  And then you have gained nothing, just moved stuff around to suit a different set of sensibilities. 

Of course, if a couple of whoefully-undersubscribed P or M classes went away...

--Andy

I kinda sorta agree with you, Andy, except if we stop granting stock classes for new top-end cars, we are truncating participation to a degree over time.  Are we never going to have any more capable cars in a stock class than the current SS group?  At some point the newer top cars need to have a stock class to play in, and an XS class is the way to do that without destroying a very popular SS class.  And yeah, participation might be low for a year or two (me thinks 10-20 cars initially) but that still beats a bunch of other classes, as you noted in particular P and M classes...

---

Stuart F. Maxcy
Black 06 Viper Coupe
SS 188
TEXAS REGION

2005 Southwest Solo Divsional Champion
AS (C4 ZO7)
2006 Southwest Solo Divisional Champion
SS (Porsche GT3)

I'm hoping to get to drive one once some local dealers get them in... Everything I've read about  them suggests a VAST improvement over my car.

Better Motor... better transmission.MUCH better brakes ( not that mine are bad ), and the big thing for those of us that own one... better wheel options for keeping in DS.
They've done a ton to this car to make it better. The little things like the seats that hold you better STANDARD... the pedal box area is revised with better placement for your feet. The techno stuff is great too.

Now, if they could only offer a spoiler delete option,and the 7 speaker system to lose that sub in the trunk...

Hopefully if the car is better for solo duties, i won't be the ONLY one at nats again like this past year.

---

Brian Huber
2006 Cobalt SS-Supercharged
#58DS
Official car of One-Wheel Drive Racing's 2008 Solo campaign...
If you aint last, then you aren't driving this car.

Surferjer:

I kinda sorta agree with you, Andy, except if we stop granting stock classes for new top-end cars, we are truncating participation to a degree over time.  Are we never going to have any more capable cars in a stock class than the current SS group?  At some point the newer top cars need to have a stock class to play in, and an XS class is the way to do that without destroying a very popular SS class. 

All classes in Stock have gotten faster over time, and generally without adding classes.  The latter is the easy man's cop-out.  But if you look at the winner's listings in the back of the rulebook for every class, you'll see cars that are way slower that the current top dogs in every single class.  And that's because all cars being made are faster.  Even the woeful grocery getters of today are blazing when compared to the Vegas and Mavericks of yesteryear.  So HS gets faster, GS gets faster, DS gets faster, etc.  All the way up to SS.  

The trick is to acknowledge this trend and then skillfully manage the introduction of new cars into the classing scheme in a way that balances members' vested interests in existing cars versus rolling with the "new replaces old" trend which makes classes faster.  So every class doesn't get faster all in lockstep and every year.  Instead, it typically ends up being more of an accordian effect.

--Andy 

well, data point.  i remember my first events in the c5 z06.... i was always shocked by how fast the times came in.  I never actually ceased being surprised at the times I turned in that car.  Let's just say that's not the case with the C6z....to say the least. 

I think I am a bit rusty, so that is part of it...  we'll see.

 

 

 

 

Cars today are faster at autox than cars from 30 years ago, but that doesn't mean that cars today are necessarily faster than cars from 5 years ago.

Many cars are getting killed by the bigger is better idea ........ length and weight both kill a car on course even if it beats it's predecessor at all the standard magazine numbers.
 

 

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wheelspecs.com

EL PAALO:

Cars today are faster at autox than cars from 30 years ago, but that doesn't mean that cars today are necessarily faster than cars from 5 years ago.

Many cars are getting killed by the bigger is better idea ........ length and weight both kill a car on course even if it beats it's predecessor at all the standard magazine numbers.

The horsepower war has never raged harder than it does right now...we have Camrys that have over 275 horsepower and run a faster quarter mile  (stock) than many 'muscle cars' did in the late 60's! 

---

96 DSP 328i

Andy Hollis:

All classes in Stock have gotten faster over time, and generally without adding classes.  The latter is the easy man's cop-out.  But if you look at the winner's listings in the back of the rulebook for every class, you'll see cars that are way slower that the current top dogs in every single class.  And that's because all cars being made are faster.  Even the woeful grocery getters of today are blazing when compared to the Vegas and Mavericks of yesteryear.  So HS gets faster, GS gets faster, DS gets faster, etc.  All the way up to SS.  

The trick is to acknowledge this trend and then skillfully manage the introduction of new cars into the classing scheme in a way that balances members' vested interests in existing cars versus rolling with the "new replaces old" trend which makes classes faster.  So every class doesn't get faster all in lockstep and every year.  Instead, it typically ends up being more of an accordian effect.

--Andy 

Please esplain to me, Lucy, how we're going to gracefully speed up SS.  Either we let the $120,000+ 997 in to play, and make it a richer man's class, or we let the supercharged Lotuses in and make it a spec class, killing off the most popular car (C5Z06) either way.  If this is what has to happen, when will it happen?  I don't think SS participation, with the current group of cars, will wane anytime soon.  It will remain the biggest or next to the biggest (AS) class in all of Solo.  At least until we f with it.  Meanwhile all the other classes will continue to get faster, and more and more cars will go right to ASP because they are too fast for SS.   I still say we should kill off a P or M class or 3 and add XS, solving the duel dilemma of killing the most popular class and having a stock class for the newer, faster cars to play in.   

---

Jer
#196 ES
#187 SS retired

Surferjer:

Andy Hollis:

All classes in Stock have gotten faster over time, and generally without adding classes.  The latter is the easy man's cop-out.  But if you look at the winner's listings in the back of the rulebook for every class, you'll see cars that are way slower that the current top dogs in every single class.  And that's because all cars being made are faster.  Even the woeful grocery getters of today are blazing when compared to the Vegas and Mavericks of yesteryear.  So HS gets faster, GS gets faster, DS gets faster, etc.  All the way up to SS.  

The trick is to acknowledge this trend and then skillfully manage the introduction of new cars into the classing scheme in a way that balances members' vested interests in existing cars versus rolling with the "new replaces old" trend which makes classes faster.  So every class doesn't get faster all in lockstep and every year.  Instead, it typically ends up being more of an accordian effect.

--Andy 

Please esplain to me, Lucy, how we're going to gracefully speed up SS.  Either we let the $120,000+ 997 in to play, and make it a richer man's class, or we let the supercharged Lotuses in and make it a spec class, killing off the most popular car (C5Z06) either way.  If this is what has to happen, when will it happen?  I don't think SS participation, with the current group of cars, will wane anytime soon.  It will remain the biggest or next to the biggest (AS) class in all of Solo.  At least until we f with it.  Meanwhile all the other classes will continue to get faster, and more and more cars will go right to ASP because they are too fast for SS.   I still say we should kill off a P or M class or 3 and add XS, solving the duel dilemma of killing the most popular class and having a stock class for the newer, faster cars to play in.   

But most of the cars that we would put in this XS class have a very good chance at winning ASP in stock form, so why create another class!?

---

Stuart F. Maxcy
Black 06 Viper Coupe
SS 188
TEXAS REGION

2005 Southwest Solo Divsional Champion
AS (C4 ZO7)
2006 Southwest Solo Divisional Champion
SS (Porsche GT3)

StuMax:

But most of the cars that we would put in this XS class have a very good chance at winning ASP in stock form, so why create another class!?

  You might be right, but I think not.  ASP SC'd Lotuses are going to be very tough to beat once development is done.  The winning one will be all cut up and have a bunch of other mods.  It just took a few years for people to stop talking about it, break out the sawzall and start using their imaginations.  It's hard to chop up a $52,000 car, but it's a lot easier to do it to a $32,000 car.  And that's what the oldest Elises with some miles are fetching now.

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Jer
#196 ES
#187 SS retired

Surferjer:

StuMax:

But most of the cars that we would put in this XS class have a very good chance at winning ASP in stock form, so why create another class!?

  You might be right, but I think not.  ASP SC'd Lotuses are going to be very tough to beat once development is done.  The winning one will be all cut up and have a bunch of other mods.  It just took a few years for people to stop talking about it, break out the sawzall and start using their imaginations.  It's hard to chop up a $52,000 car, but it's a lot easier to do it to a $32,000 car.  And that's what the oldest Elises with some miles are fetching now.

---

Stuart F. Maxcy
Black 06 Viper Coupe
SS 188
TEXAS REGION

2005 Southwest Solo Divsional Champion
AS (C4 ZO7)
2006 Southwest Solo Divisional Champion
SS (Porsche GT3)

Surferjer:

StuMax:

But most of the cars that we would put in this XS class have a very good chance at winning ASP in stock form, so why create another class!?

  You might be right, but I think not.  ASP SC'd Lotuses are going to be very tough to beat once development is done.  The winning one will be all cut up and have a bunch of other mods.  It just took a few years for people to stop talking about it, break out the sawzall and start using their imaginations.  It's hard to chop up a $52,000 car, but it's a lot easier to do it to a $32,000 car.  And that's what the oldest Elises with some miles are fetching now.

I've thought this for a while now.  The Elise at least appears to have more to gain (camber, wheel width, etc...) going from stock to SP than cars like the Z06, so it seems reasonable to assume it would be faster since they are somewhat equal (with a lot of course dependency) in stock form.  That gap will probably only widen with the S/C car.

Of course mostly speculation on my part having not owned an Elise.

Dave G.