SCCAForums.com

I understand the "ballast aversion" for lower prepped cars that would have to add weight to run SM2.  However, you can't have it both ways.   Just because you haven't prepped in other ways to take advantage of the SM ruleset, you should be allowed to run a lower weight?  That would be unfun to try and write rules for that.  About the only thing I could see is if a lower prep category car was allowed to compete without a weight minimum as long as it did not have any mods beyond the lower class.  However, I wouldn't want to have to try and police that.

 If you want to make the argument that having to add weight makes the car uncompetitive in SM2, I personally disagree.  The fundamental issue here is trying to reconcile a very wide range of cars with one weight scale.  If you make the "standard" of the weight scale a Miata, it will be one of the very few cars to actually make min weight.

-Andy

boxboy:

I understand the "ballast aversion" for lower prepped cars that would have to add weight to run SM2.  However, you can't have it both ways.   Just because you haven't prepped in other ways to take advantage of the SM ruleset, you should be allowed to run a lower weight?  That would be unfun to try and write rules for that.  About the only thing I could see is if a lower prep category car was allowed to compete without a weight minimum as long as it did not have any mods beyond the lower class.  However, I wouldn't want to have to try and police that.

 If you want to make the argument that having to add weight makes the car uncompetitive in SM2, I personally disagree.  The fundamental issue here is trying to reconcile a very wide range of cars with one weight scale.  If you make the "standard" of the weight scale a Miata, it will be one of the very few cars to actually make min weight.

-Andy

 I'm not commenting on whether or not miatas SHOULD be able to run at a lower weight, just telling you what the common perception that is a barrier to participation from owners of a car that would seem like it should be better represented on the National level in SM2. 

On any given Sunday at Regions across the country the grids are full of SM2 miatas.  Why aren't more of them running Nationals?   And of the 100 or so miata owners who do participate at Nationals in a miata, why do so few choose SM2?  I think the weight issue is a big part of the reason. 

Maybe SM2 can survive without miatas.  But it sure seems like that in any class where a miata has a fighting chance a whole bunch of them show up.  If I were in a class that was on the brink of falling below participation levels that was legal for miatas but not attracting many I would look hard at making the class more inviting for them.  Bottom line is if you want more of them to participate you will have to adjust the weight calculations.   If the idea of making weights attractive to miatas is objectionable to the few invested in the status quo then you'll likely have to look elsewhere for additonal participation.  So far that doesn't seem to be a winning strategy.

Motor work is underway.  I have to add 40 lbs because of it.  Darn 1.8L 

I won't go into the whole weight calc discussion again. 

[Soapbox] 

I could even deal with the ballast if I could put it someplace useful.  Bolting it in the trunk isn't a great asset to the handling.  I knew the rules coming in so I can't complain too much. 

I do encourage all the other Miata drivers to come play at a national event near you.  Maybe if we show some potential competitors, the SEB and SMAC will believe that there are more out there who would come play given the "right" weight.

[/Soapbox] 

boxboy:

I understand the "ballast aversion" for lower prepped cars that would have to add weight to run SM2.  However, you can't have it both ways.   Just because you haven't prepped in other ways to take advantage of the SM ruleset, you should be allowed to run a lower weight? 

Its not that the CS guy wants to run his car as-is in SM2 at stock weight.  Its that he has a fundamental problem with the idea of having to add 100 of lead to his trunk after he modifies his car for a class three categories up the scale, especially when many of the other cars in the class have been able to shave 100, 200, or more pounds off their stock weights.  Whatever the competitive outlook, nobody wants to move up a prep level and have to add weight. 

 If you were an outsider looking in what would your level of interest be in building a new 13b RX7 for SM2 if the weight calculation dictated you had to run at higher-than-stock weight, even if you still assumed you would be "in the hunt" if not neccesarily the best car in class?

There are lots of factors that determine how fast a car goes - weight and power are but two of them.

 A Miata has a lot to gain in the usable power department, going from CS to SM2.  Like 300%.

A Corvette has little to gain in usable power going from SS to SM2.  20-30% before it becomes absurd overkill.

The Corvette can lose a little weight, maybe 5%, the Miata can't lose any, and may have to put on 10% or so. 

Of all those numbers, only one stands out to me.

As long as we're at HPT courses will be tight and transitional to maintain reasonable length; unless the surface changes more, potential thrust levels for torquey RWD cars will continue to be less than it has been.  The Miata will always be a lot smaller, and depend less on the now-harder-to-do speeding up parts after the inevitable slowing-down parts.

gary p:

[

Maybe SM2 can survive without miatas.  But it sure seems like that in any class where a miata has a fighting chance a whole bunch of them show up. 

At our regional event this past weekend, we had 8 drivers in SM2 out of a total of 100.  That's 8% of total entry.  Pretty stout, on a relative basis.  But it looked nothing like SM2 does at Tours and Nats.  We had 5 Miatas, 2 in a turbo CRX, and a lone Corvette.  None of those cars was anywhere close to full-out prep.  They are mostly just fun street cars with forced induction added.  SM/SM2 seem to have the largest difference between regional cars and national cars, both in prep and in car choice.

--Andy 

Actually, if I were building a car for the class again I would start with something smaller, like a Miata.  Especially after the recent thread on how to build one.   When I originally (4 years ago) was looking at the class and what I wanted to do I bought the RX7 as an ASP car first, and possible SM2 car second. 

 The appeal of having to add weight is two fold, putting it over the rear wheels is a good thing.   And two, I wouldn't have to spend tons of time and money figuring how to squeeze pounds out of the car. 

I totally understand the knee jerk reaction of "that is so lame, I have to ADD weight?".  The problem with making a Miata (with no other limitations) the standard where they would not have to add weight (assuming they are upping displacement or adding FI) is that all weights would be so low as to be unobtainable by most other cars.   There is a downside to using one formula for all cars.

-Andy

P.S.  I do find it a bit ironic that the RX-7 has become the standard bearer for the class, since I originally looked at Miatas and MR-Spyders for SM2, and Beth/Erik wanted the ultimate for their "street" car that Beth has had since way way back.  We didn't look at SM2 and decide an RX7 was the ticket...

boxboy:

Actually, if I were building a car for the class again I would start with something smaller, like a Miata. 

A simple slip of the tongue and Andy reveals his true intent behind selling his "old news" RX7... 

Oops!

--Andy (the one with two dashes)

gary p:

Its not that the CS guy wants to run his car as-is in SM2 at stock weight.  Its that he has a fundamental problem with the idea of having to add 100 of lead to his trunk after he modifies his car for a class three categories up the scale, especially when many of the other cars in the class have been able to shave 100, 200, or more pounds off their stock weights.  Whatever the competitive outlook, nobody wants to move up a prep level and have to add weight...

That's how I feel about a LOT of higher prep classes, not just SM2.

Andy Hollis:

boxboy:

Actually, if I were building a car for the class again I would start with something smaller, like a Miata. 

A simple slip of the tongue and Andy reveals his true intent behind selling his "old news" RX7... 

Oops!

--Andy (the one with two dashes)

 

No slip there Andy.  It's just that nobody seems to believe me when I say a Miata would do very well.   Of course, even in SM where you can address many a shortcoming, there is that "non-linear" region where some cars just shine more than numbers would indicate.

-Andy M. (I should keep the M on there as Mr. Hollis has certainly staked a claim on plain Andy usage with his gazillion posts)

modernbeat:

[That's how I feel about a LOT of higher prep classes, not just SM2.

Class	Car	Engine	Weight Calculation	Min. Weight without 200lb driver	Estimated Build Weight	Race Weight including 200lb driver and no Ballast	Race Weight including Driver and Ballast	Probable Ballast	PAX
CS	MS Miata	1.8 FI BP	no minimum	2150	2150	2350	2350	0.0	0.822
CS	NB Miata	1.8 BP	no minimum	2100	2100	2300	2300	0.0	0.822
ES	NA Miata	1.8 BP	no minimum	2050	2050	2250	2250	0.0	0.812
STS2	NA Miata	1.6 B6	no minimum	1960	1960	2160	2160	0.0	0.806
CSP	NA Miata	1.8 BP	no minimum	1900	1900	2100	2100	0.0	0.845
DP	NA Miata	1.6 B6	Stock Disp CC x 1.10 lbs	1758.4	1600	1800	1958.4	158.4	0.860
DP	NA Miata	1.8 BP	(Stock Disp CC x .95 lbs) + 250lbs + 75lbs for 10" wheels	2073.4	1650	1850	2273.4	423.4	0.860
SM2	Miata	1.8 BP	1600lbs + 200bls per ltr	1968.1	1950	2150	2168.1	18.1	0.862
SM2	Miata	1.8 FI BP	1600lbs + (200bls per ltr x 1.4 FI factor)	2115.3	2000	2200	2315.3	115.3	0.862
XP	Miata	2.0 F20c	1200lbs + 200lbs per ltr + 50lbs for ABS	1649