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ChrisSwearingen:

I knew the rules when I got in so I can live with them, but if you want more guys to come play, I think the forced induction Miata community would be interested.  But that interest would be higher if they could shed some weight.  The 275 hoosiers give us some opportunities, but we still need a bit more to be competitive.  I wouldn't mind tailoring the class to make Miata's the overdog, but my intent is to give them more equity and make them competitive.  Either that or make all rotaries weigh <dr evil voice> 1 million pounds </dr evil voice>

The rules as they are won't keep me away, but they may be keeping some others.  Just my $.02
 

It would be very interesting to see how many people would seriously campaign a miata if a miata-friendly change was made. When I look back to '03 and '04 (when the minimums were lighter) I don't see an abundance of miatas. I'm not doubting that more would get built if the rules favored them. I'm more looking for something concrete to point to in support of the argument.

It was great to see both you and Paul out there representing the miata contingency. I spoke with him briefly and he sounded like he planned to continue to develop his car as well. The more cars and drivers we get out there the better our data points will be.

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Randy Noll

rnoll98:

It would be very interesting to see how many people would seriously campaign a miata if a miata-friendly change was made. When I look back to '03 and '04 (when the minimums were lighter) I don't see an abundance of miatas. I'm not doubting that more would get built if the rules favored them. I'm more looking for something concrete to point to in support of the argument.

2005 was the last year that I and a number of other Miata drivers ran in SM2.  That year, there were 5 different Miatas entered in SM2 at Nationals.  The only car model with more entrants in SM2 that year was the Corvette.  I don't believe any of those 5 cars are still running in SM2.

Two factors led us to move elsewhere:

1.  Lack of suitable tires.  The fender flare limitations in SP make it impractical to run 24"+ diameter tires, and 225's simply don't cut it with 250whp+.  Even before the new weight limits were implemented, the tire issue alone had me looking elsewhere.  The good news is that Hoosier eliminated this issue in '07 by releasing the 275/35-15, which is the perfect tire for an SM2 Miata.

 2. Higher weight minimums.   The new minimums would have forced me to add over 100 lbs of ballast to the final SM2 configuration of a car that still had a number of opportunities for weight reduction within the rules.  That's IMHO a pretty significant deterrent for developing a car never proven to be dominant in the class.  (For reference: I believe Bill Schenker's CSP-winning '99 Miata weighs approx. 1960 lbs.  Going with forced induction would add approx. 50 lbs to the weight of his vehicle - meaning he would have to carry roughly 230lbs of ballast to run his car in SM2.  That seems crazy to me. )

Given the new 275mm Hoosiers, I believe it's likely you would see a number of Miatas move into SM2, if the weight minimum formula was less hostile.  The cars are cheap, plentiful, and mumerous forced-induction options are readily available.

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Steve Garnjobst
#75 XP
'99 Mazda Mutant

I'm in the process of building an SM2 Miata, although it wouldn't be ready until 2009 to consider doing a National event competitively. And at this point with how the current weight rules are, I will probably forego doing the proper modifications to fit the 275 Hoosiers since it still won't be enough to be remotely competitive. If there were different weight restrictions for Under/Over 2.0L, then we'd have more of a fighting chance. Until that happens though I don't see any reason to spend the money to make it a nationals car and continue to compete at the regional level. If the rules gave it a fighting chance, I would start attending National Events.

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Logan Murray
SM2 NA Miata

FLF!

hey, honestly regardless of the weight restrictions as they sit, it's in your best interest to run national events to see how you fare against the top dogs.  That's the true measure of where you need to go with your car.  adjusting weights will NOT make up the gap between the top dog cars and Miatas no matter what anyone thinks.  Weights are just one of MANY elements that need to be fine-tuned.

IMO, the weights don't scare me.  I think a properly built/tuned Miata can beat the RX7s, but it's gonna be an NC that does it ;)

d 

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Dan Pedroza
CS 72/172
2008 Nationals CS first loser

sm2dan:

....adjusting weights will NOT make up the gap between the top dog cars and Miatas no matter what anyone thinks....

I honestly don't know whether the NA/NB Miatas can beat the RX7's in SM2, but the minimum weight change made it real easy for me to move on - as it sent a clear message that the SMAC/SEB weren't really interested in giving lighter cars a fighting chance in SM/SM2.  That's too bad, as some of the lighter cars also happen to be some of the least costly to buy & build. 

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Steve Garnjobst
#75 XP
'99 Mazda Mutant

I get the sense that the big deterrent is not the actual race weight, but more the simple idea of having to add ballast to a car. This totally makes sense. I think this debate is something that really needs to be understood by everyone from both points of view.

1) The Miata owner's point of view is that they could have a 2000# FI 1.8 car on 275s, but instead have to ballast to 2240#. That's no fun, especially when you probably bought the car because it's light and nimble.

2) The other side is that it's possible to have a 2240# car (300# lighter than Andy, and 500# lighter than Erik) that can run 275s and is easily capable of 350whp and a healthy torque curve. I think we'd all agree that those numbers look pretty tempting.

I don't recall what the other miatas that ran the class were making power-wise, but I'm not so sure this car I describe has ever been built. So I'm not sure we have any real evidence that this car, when fully exploiting the current ruleset, is or isn't competitive.

Questions to ponder:

a) If a miata was 2400# stock, and could get down to 2250 in SM2 trim, do we think more people would be campaigning them in SM2?

b) Does anyone think the new MX5 would be a good SM2 contender within the current rules? If so, what advantages does it have over the late 90s cars?

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Randy Noll

The NC will be the Hot Ticket as far as miata's go to compete with the big boys. With its ability to run an 18" Wheel, you'll be able to fit some Massive Tires under it, I imagine that 285/35R18 A6 will be the popular tire....at the small end. Suspension geometry is pretty good too. The engine is a real beauty, the head is fantastic. When Dan finally finishes his, I'm sure it'll be 2240# with 350rwhp, its just the rear end,  tranny and hubs that he'll need to get creative on, they haven't proven to stand up to much abuse in the Spec MX5 Pro Cup.

 But Steve and Dan are correct, it will take more than just a lighter weight to get the NA/NB Miata to compete with an RX7, although a 2000# minimum would go a long way, but I don't think we could get there with the windshield attached could we? Steve is at....1940# I think and its pretty well gutted. It would be nice if there were some changes made to make the miata more competitve though considering how cheap they are and how large and realitively cheap the aftermarket is.

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Logan Murray
SM2 NA Miata

MNbiker:

sm2dan:

....adjusting weights will NOT make up the gap between the top dog cars and Miatas no matter what anyone thinks....

I honestly don't know whether the NA/NB Miatas can beat the RX7's in SM2, but the minimum weight change made it real easy for me to move on - as it sent a clear message that the SMAC/SEB weren't really interested in giving lighter cars a fighting chance in SM/SM2.  That's too bad, as some of the lighter cars also happen to be some of the least costly to buy & build. 

This is what confuses me and makes me think that the mental hurdle of having to add ballast is a bigger deterrant than any weight adjustment could ever make up for. To say it another way, if you only had to add 100# rather than 250#, it wouldn't matter because you'd still be unhappy about having to ballast.

If we were to use a 1.4 multiplier like XP, a 1.8 would still have to weigh 2100# and you'd still have to add 100# of ballast. I'm not getting the feeling that this would make a difference in people's perceptions or bring any more miatas to the class.

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Randy Noll

My advice.......screw the weight limits.

 As long as the car has an interior......then everything SM2 should be legal.

The weight limits are what killed and or is killing this class.  Open it up to Elise's and all other cars.

Erik is still going to beat the crap out of 99.999 of the cars and drivers in this class (provided his car doesn't break).

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Trying to get faster

rnoll98:

b) Does anyone think the new MX5 would be a good SM2 contender within the current rules? If so, what advantages does it have over the late 90s cars?

Yes.  That's what i was referencing with the "NC" NC = 3rd generation 2006+ MX5s.  I"ve found that the advantages are better control arms front and rear, stiffer chassis, HUGE brakes (the 275 15s won't fit over these brakes, you need to go with the 285 18s), larger rubber capacity and the better ABS.

Thing is, all of this can be done with the previous generation NBs Miatas, but costs much more to do it.  The NC is a better starting point. Look at how Ron Bauer came close to SM2 times at a few Tours on the left coast all from rubber!  add REAL power like the Mazdaspeed 2.3L turbo from the Mazdaspeed 3 tuned to about 350hp (which should be really easy) and the car will be a screamer.  add even better brakes, stronger transmission and big rubber and sorry, guys, the RX7s won't have a chance.

d
 

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Dan Pedroza
CS 72/172
2008 Nationals CS first loser

sm2dan:

rnoll98:

b) Does anyone think the new MX5 would be a good SM2 contender within the current rules? If so, what advantages does it have over the late 90s cars?

Yes.  That's what i was referencing with the "NC" NC = 3rd generation 2006+ MX5s.  I"ve found that the advantages are better control arms front and rear, stiffer chassis, HUGE brakes (the 275 15s won't fit over these brakes, you need to go with the 285 18s), larger rubber capacity and the better ABS.

Thing is, all of this can be done with the previous generation NBs Miatas, but costs much more to do it.   

I can't imagine the difference in cost is greater than the difference in purchase price of the car?

What do you expect the NC being able to acheive as a min weight?

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Randy Noll

rnoll98:

This is what confuses me and makes me think that the mental hurdle of having to add ballast is a bigger deterrant than any weight adjustment could ever make up for. To say it another way, if you only had to add 100# rather than 250#, it wouldn't matter because you'd still be unhappy about having to ballast.

If we were to use a 1.4 multiplier like XP, a 1.8 would still have to weigh 2100# and you'd still have to add 100# of ballast. I'm not getting the feeling that this would make a difference in people's perceptions or bring any more miatas to the class.

150 lbs is a pretty significant difference in a 2100 lb car.

My biggest issue with the new weight minimums is that they were a punitive takeback for cars in both SM and SM2 that hadn't won a thing.  As I stated before, it seemed to me a pretty strong message from the SMAC that they wanted to defend the status quo, versus allow drivers to fully develop the lighter cars to the limit of the rules.

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Steve Garnjobst
#75 XP
'99 Mazda Mutant

I agree with Dan that the NC chassis MX-5 is a better platform to develop for SM2.  When the RX-7's are running 300mm+ tires, even the 275's may not be enough tire at 2240lbs.  The NC's have way more space for larger  diameter tires and also have a suspension that should work better for big power.  And dropping in a 2.3L MZR from a Mazdaspeed 3/6 would be easy.  You can even go with stock internals, as Mazda has already built the things to handle heavy boost.

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Steve Garnjobst
#75 XP
'99 Mazda Mutant

MNbiker:

I agree with Dan that the NC chassis MX-5 is a better platform to develop for SM2.  When the RX-7's are running 300mm+ tires, even the 275's may not be enough tire at 2240lbs.  The NC's have way more space for larger  diameter tires and also have a suspension that should work better for big power.  And dropping in a 2.3L MZR from a Mazdaspeed 3/6 would be easy.  You can even go with stock internals, as Mazda has already built the things to handle heavy boost.

This car would have a min weight of 2340. So we'd rather have the extra 100# and the bigger motor/tires?

Is it the suspension or the pickup points?

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Randy Noll

rnoll98:

sm2dan:

rnoll98:

b) Does anyone think the new MX5 would be a good SM2 contender within the current rules? If so, what advantages does it have over the late 90s cars?

Yes.  That's what i was referencing with the "NC" NC = 3rd generation 2006+ MX5s.  I"ve found that the advantages are better control arms front and rear, stiffer chassis, HUGE brakes (the 275 15s won't fit over these brakes, you need to go with the 285 18s), larger rubber capacity and the better ABS.

Thing is, all of this can be done with the previous generation NBs Miatas, but costs much more to do it.   

I can't imagine the difference in cost is greater than the difference in purchase price of the car?

What do you expect the NC being able to acheive as a min weight?

I don't expect an NC to get under 2350.  even 2400 fully prepped may be tough, but that's fine!  again, the weights don't scare me.  The RX7s are weighing in at 2550-2650. Yes they make more power, but it's relatively easy to make power, and usable power at that.  What benefit does the RX7 have over an NC?  I don't see any benefit.  They're heavier!

I started with the wrong platform with my '99.  I didn't have ABS, which is a must-have.  to retrofit or buy a kit that could put in ABS was/is expensive.  cutting fenders just didn't interest me because I'm still a believer in keeping the "Street" in Street Modified.  If i have to cut, then i'm off to XP....but that's not where I'm going.  I enjoyed driving my '99 SC Miata on the street and I plan on keeping that ability with an NC.  I've got active internet searches continually searching for an NC.  I believe that in a year I'll find one for about $14k.  If i find one with a dead motor, i bet I could get one for about $10k, but they're hard to come by.  eBay has them at any given time for about $15k.  I don't believe you can get a good 2nd generation chassis with comparable engine, brakes, equipment, stiffness and rubber for that amount.  Ok, it's probably possible but it's much easier with finding an NC.

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Dan Pedroza
CS 72/172
2008 Nationals CS first loser

What do you expect the NC being able to acheive as a min weight?

Our (i.e: Ron's) CSP NC weighed something like 2320 at Topeka.  That's with A/C, factory stereo, cruise, power windows, but also a kart passenger seat.

Jim

MNbiker:

2005 was the last year that I and a number of other Miata drivers ran in SM2.  That year, there were 5 different Miatas entered in SM2 at Nationals.  The only car model with more entrants in SM2 that year was the Corvette.  I don't believe any of those 5 cars are still running in SM2.

Ummm I'm still in SM2 and I competed in the same "corvette" in 2005 in SM2. Also, Densmore's C5 used to be Gary's (that won in 2005).

I guess me being the only corvette trophy winner in SM2 this past year, was not really noticed  *shrug*

If the mini-tub was allowed in SM2, that will bring more corvette owners to SM2...and may give the corvette an actual chance against the Rotards

 

 

 

 

 

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Michael "MrPickles" Feldpusch
#144 SM2
Broomfield, CO
rmsolo.org
lefthandracing.com

I think he is referring to the Miatas not coming back, Michael.  In any case, the SMAC has discussed the mini-tub many times and has always struggled with creating an allowance for one model car.   And if you try and make it applicable to all cars it's another can of worms.

 Looking at the Corvette's competitiveness, I would say it has taken a hit since we moved to HPT and the available traction went down.  However, guys like Junior continue to go fast there in them.  He was 6 tenths off of Erik's time on the West Course in an ASP car.  With all of SM2's available allowances, how much time should a Vette gain in SM2 over ASP?

-Andy