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Steve Hoelscher:

Andy, all you did was remove the incentive (and penalize the peole who do it right).  You did NOTHING to improve the situation.  Not a damn thing.

Actually, nothing has been done yet, so we can't know if you are right or wrong.

We'll all have to wait and see how it shakes out when the rule goes into effect next year.  Then we can make those judgements.

You are correct, though, that it does penalize folks that did it right (like you and George).  But you are also in the minority from my observations.

--Andy

 

 

Howdy,

Steve Hoelscher:

Andy, all you did was remove the incentive (and penalize the peole who do it right).  You did NOTHING to improve the situation.  Not a damn thing.

Oh, bullshit.

What was done to improve the situation was to remove the incentive to skimp on mounting to save weight.  YOU might have decided to forego the extra weight an mount the seat safely, but I've damn well seen plenty of other folks that decided "nobody will ever ride in this passenger seat, so I'll velcro it in place"...  And then later on said "sure, you can ride with me".  Or worse, did it with the driver's seat.

Is it as good as making an actual safety rule that tech would enforce?  No.  But to do that would require a hell of a lot of other improvements related to tech, and solo as a whole isn't really ready to go there.  Would you prefer to have some untrained monkey tell you that your seat was unsafe?  How would you prove it was?  Arm wrestle?

I'll make you a deal.  You offer up the lightest weight example of a seat and mounting system that's safe.  And then I'll tell you how to reduce the weight of that system if you're willing to have an unsafe seat.  If you beat me, I'll retract my comments.

But you won't beat me.  There's no way to make a single layer tinfoil seat mounted with scotch tape safe.

Mark

(oh, and regarding your issues with no OEM holes/studs, the rule explicitly allows you to add mounting points.  So you use every single one of the existing oem holes/studs (which shouldn't take long), then drill some more holes for mounting points.  How on God's green earth is that illegal?)
 

marka:

Is it as good as making an actual safety rule that tech would enforce?  No.  But to do that would require a hell of a lot of other improvements related to tech, and solo as a whole isn't really ready to go there.  Would you prefer to have some untrained monkey tell you that your seat was unsafe?  How would you prove it was?  Arm wrestle?

Why not?  We have tech make safety determinations already.  Roll cages, harness mounting, etc...  Safety stewards make determinations like this all the time.  For all of the good it does.  So if its not tech's job to determine if a car is safe to run, why do we have tech?  Why not use them for the purpose they are intended?   We train safety stewards, why not tech workers?  Publish guidlines and have tech verify compliance.   That would cross all of the catagories not just ST and SP.

I simply do not understand how anybody can figure its a good idea to force competitors to file protests to enforce safety compliance.   

I stated they did nothing to address the safety issue.  The rule mandates a heavy seat/mount, not a safe one.  Tell me where I am wrong?

marka:

(oh, and regarding your issues with no OEM holes/studs, the rule explicitly allows you to add mounting points.  So you use every single one of the existing oem holes/studs (which shouldn't take long), then drill some more holes for mounting points.  How on God's green earth is that illegal?)
 

I understand the logic and your argument, but I dissagree with how the PC/AC may interpret it.

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
http://www.terriehoward.com

Steve Hoelscher:

I stated they did nothing to address the safety issue.  The rule mandates a heavy seat/mount, not a safe one.  Tell me where I am wrong?

 

EXACTLY my objection to this rule.

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Bill Schenker
CalClub & S.D.R. #14 CSP 10AE Miata

Steve Hoelscher:

I simply do not understand how anybody can figure its a good idea to force competitors to file protests to enforce safety compliance.

It becomes even harder to understand when you think about the timing of protests vs the timing of tech.

"Oh, Mr Event Steward, if that guy whose seat came loose during his first run ever gets back from the hospital, please know that I plan to protest.  Thanks."

- Jtoby

 

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"All your boost are belong to us"

Maybe the answer is simply to adopt the safety standards set out by the GCR and stop all the bitching and back-biting.

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Sam Strano
Owner--Strano Performance Parts
800-729-1831

01 FS Z28:

Maybe the answer is simply to adopt the safety standards set out by the GCR and stop all the bitching and back-biting.

Yes! 

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Bill Schenker
CalClub & S.D.R. #14 CSP 10AE Miata

I wish I'd have thought about that sooner...... oh wait, I did.

 As for tech tossing folks for things like poor mounting.  It won't happen.  Much as we hate to admit it, autocrossers aren't that uptight, even when we should be.  And if the rule is vague, how do you deny someone running if you can't point out what's wrong that fails them. 

 Here's your fair warning:  The intent of this proposed rule was to address some of the crappy back-yard engineered mounting systems figuring that if you weren't trying to skimp on weight, that you'd be more inclined to build something smart vs. just light.  The GCR won't make any assumptions that folks will use their head.  If it's illegal, it'll be illegal and if you are 500 miles from home @ a tour and can't run that's that. 

 

 

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Sam Strano
Owner--Strano Performance Parts
800-729-1831

I was working tech at Nationals one year and the number of prepared and modified cars I had to "fail" (which is just telling them to go fix it and come back) because their numbers were on their side windows was unreal, as were the drivers' reactions to it. And that was a clearly worded prohibition with zero ambiguity in the supp's. Guys were very upset that they would have to put numbers on the side of the car and that the 5" ones on the side windows were insufficient. I felt bad, but the tech chief said they were cracking down on that.

 Hell, they don't even mark the tires that have been tech'd! I used to feel stupid telling people "yeah, you have to bring over all of your tires so I can look at them" when we weren't really keeping track of them.

 Anyway, my point is that tech is not viewed by competitors with the "respect" (I can't find a better word, sorry) that it needs to be able to enforce more than the basics. I don't think I'm qualified to tell someone that they can't run because they haven't adequately fabricated a seat mount, unless it's the previously mentioned scotch tape and tinfoil method. Maybe we need annual techs performed by trained solo scrutineers? Logbooks too I guess along with at-event techs to check for overall compliance and wear issues. I gotta wonder how that's gonna fly with the local areas, though. Maybe only for national events?

 I dunno.

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Brian "Big Enos" Burdette

Interesting turn on the topic...

We've actually received two letters in the recent past from folks going to national events and complaining about the lack of veracity of the tech process at those events.  They wanted us to "do something" about this.  Unfortunately, the SEB just makes the rules.  They don't administer the events.   Tours/Pros are under the scope of the national staff.

--Andy

 

It should also be noted that SM will absorb this new rule change in 2008 since there is no specific SM rule on seats.  I understand both sides on this issue, though I am very disappointed in the solution as it is another case of indirect rules making.  At the least the weight minimum should be lower (perhaps 15 or even 10 lbs), as that would probably still screen out the go kart seat with bubble gum setups that are typically <10lbs.  Unless, of course, the SEB is pursuing another ulterior motive of trying to exclude the incentive of "full size" race seats that are also very light and correspondingly expensive. 

 Of course, I have a personal bias here as I will have to add weight to my very safe (mounted better than OEM) and full size race seat.  Thanks.

 -Andy M.

The rule is written for both the driver and passenger seat.  The big fuss though is about the passenger seat which cannot even be used at Nationals and Tours.  Of course I know the rules apply all the time but maybe there could be some requirement that if the seat is to be occupied, then whatever seat rules apply.

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CSP RX-7 for sale

boxboy:

Unless, of course, the SEB is pursuing another ulterior motive of trying to exclude the incentive of "full size" race seats that are also very light and correspondingly expensive. 

 well duh....

You only need to know that this rule came straight from STS to know this is the case.

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
http://www.terriehoward.com

boxboy:

 

 Of course, I have a personal bias here as I will have to add weight to my very safe (mounted better than OEM) and full size race seat.  Thanks.

 -Andy M.

Assuming I was running much Solo these days, I would ditto that statement.  My relatively "low-end" FIA rated Momo Start seat bolted very solidly to stock mounting locations is just under 15 pounds.  Nice to know I would need to add ballast to my seat to be "safe."
 

Chris H.

boxboy:

It should also be noted that SM will absorb this new rule change in 2008 since there is no specific SM rule on seats.  I understand both sides on this issue, though I am very disappointed in the solution as it is another case of indirect rules making. 

Interesting that not a single SM competitor sent in feedback for the proposal, nor did any of the SMAC members bring it up until now, when the horse has already left the barn.   As an SEB member, the latter is very disappointing to me.  So there. 

--Andy

 

 

...the horse has already left the barn.  

--Andy

 

The fact is that the wrong, "fat" and "ugly" "horse" left the barn. The people responsible for letting it out of the barn should bring it back, put it on a diet and fix any lame legs it has.

George

George Doganis:

 

...the horse has already left the barn.  

--Andy

 

The fact is that the wrong, "fat" and "ugly" "horse" left the barn. The people responsible for letting it out of the barn should bring it back, put it on a diet and fix any lame legs it has.

George

 

Or, to quote a well known movie, "The Shoot Horses, Don't They?" *

 

*Please note:  No animals were hurt in the making of this post.  However , in some cases, the author DOES condone the humane killing of Dumbasses and Jackasses, where appropriate; but not consuming the meat thereof, as the author is a vegetarian.

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Bill Schenker
CalClub & S.D.R. #14 CSP 10AE Miata

actor:

Or, to quote a well known movie, "The Shoot Horses, Don't They?" *

*Please note:  No animals were hurt in the making of this post.

Maybe not, but the English language seems to have taken a hit.

- Jtoby

ps. good point, Andy, on the lack of feedback from SM; not enough attention is paid to inherited rules 

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"All your boost are belong to us"

Andy Hollis:

Interesting that not a single SM competitor sent in feedback for the proposal, nor did any of the SMAC members bring it up until now, when the horse has already left the barn.   As an SEB member, the latter is very disappointing to me.  So there. 

--Andy

 

Andy, after this wonderful development I've asked that we review all the Fastrack proposals from other categories that feed into SM as part of our standard agenda.  We do that to some extent, but obviously need to be more thorough.  It was totally missed by the SMAC as well as SEB reps that SM would be affected, or else we would have at least had it as a discussion item. 

So what is disappointing to you?  That we missed it?  That we're bringing it up after we missed it?

-Andy M.

 

Howdy,

boxboy:

Unless, of course, the SEB is pursuing another ulterior motive of trying to exclude the incentive of "full size" race seats that are also very light and correspondingly expensive. 

And that's bad why?

I mean other than for the existing folks that spent money on expensive seats being jealous that new folks don't need to do that, where exactly is the harm?

Did you honestly really want to spend an extra $1k to save ten pounds on a seat?  Does anyone really want to do that?  Or do they feel obligated to?

Even if you do feel that way, there's other stuff you can do in SM if you really, really want to waste a bunch of money, so that _still_ shouldn't be a problem.  :-)

Mark