SCCAForums.com

ErikZ06:

I would say $10K would get you a good set of wings for a top-caliber A-Mod car...

 

See, that leaves you $5K to buy a good used snowmobile to mount them on. 

I couldn't build my DSP car for $15,000.

While I am no expert on building competitive A-mod cars, for the most part, once you are into the realm of prepared and mod cars I don't know that there is a significant difference in building one class of car from another. Save the wings in A-mod, engines, transmissions, fuel systems, chassis, suspensions all have similar components and costs. 

When I bought my DP car is was already a DP car but not of the caliber I wanted.  I redid the entire car; completely new engine, transmission, clutch/flywheel and engine/transmission mounts.  New suspension: Shocks, arms, bushings/bearings, camber plates, etc...  Misc:  New seat, harness, steering gear, instrumentation, wiring harness, etc...  I could have spent tripple what I did if I had really wanted to throw the budget out the window.   The return on investment couldn't justify the additional expense at this point.  Not to mention the time and money budget were going to be stretched if I went that way.

Of course this doesn't factor in labor, engineering and fabrication skills, or time.  Or other variables like what engine you choose...

 

---

Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
2006 DP National Champion
'98, '99, '00, '02 DSP National Champion
http://www.terriehoward.com

ErikZ06:

I would say $10K would get you a good set of wings for a top-caliber A-Mod car...

You must be talking Canadian dollars, which comes out to about $400 USD at the current exchange rate.....

I just checked out a wing and underbody package with a very well known wing maker and $400 US dollars will not even buy you one wing chord! 

 
Each wing chord is about $1000 (in glass, more in carbon) and a similar amount for a rear diffuser and again a similar amount (or possibly more) for a front splitter with built in diffusers. Granted this is doing none of it yourself but you can see that an aero package for an Amod or even a Bmod car can easily run $10K USD or more depending on how many chords you go in each wing.

 

Wondering here if anyone has ever done anything with HDPE (high density polyethylene) sheets on a race car. I have access to some that may be a good basis for a splitter. Low friction, high impact resistance, easily shaped and machined, maybe a little heavy but it would ride low. 

---

Joe Gonzalez
1979 Legrand DSR- B Mod
Gilbertsville, NY

Gonzo_BMod:

Granted this is doing none of it yourself but you can see that an aero package for an Amod or even a Bmod car can easily run $10K USD or more depending on how many chords you go in each wing.

I guess that the cost of any given part on an A-Mod car is dependent on the combined skills among your circle of friends, and in the case of aero is inversely proportional to the number of wrecked model airplanes that littered your lawn as a kid.   Where you don't have the experience/tooling/knowledge at your disposal, you budget accordingly and outsource.

Just wish that my rather large circle of friends included someone who owned a 3-axis CNC machine right now.....  

Steve Hoelscher:

 

I think it would be great for A-mod and the sport in general to open the doors to the A-mod world and let some light shine in.  I am sure that most of the A-mod guys communicate via email or subscription email list. 

 

Most A-Mod owners are older by comparison to the general autocross population (I am probably the youngest in the group).  Most don't hang out on car forums, that I know for sure.  There is no official mail list we belong to.  Some of us talk via email a few times each year but seldom on tech subjects (with the exception between Dan and myself because of the Phantom).  I personally have no problem sharing information on my experience on the cars I have owned and built.  The problem is finding time to post. The subject of building a top AM car could get pretty complex to try to cover in even a few dozen long posts, and long posts take time to write.  It is a fact that there is no real AM car build/design info out there.  That's mainly because most serious builders are working on their cars rather than spending time on the keyboard. 

As to the cost of a set of AM wings, it really depends on how you want to approach it.  If you seriously want a wing that is dimensionally correct, light, strong, stiff and built/designed by top calibre professionals, it will cost you well over $10,000 each (not a set).  I chose to do it myself since I didn't want to part with that kind of money.  Having done the latest set for my new car, I am happy to say that it is entirely possible to build high quality carbon wings in your garage.  However,  if someone is to offer me $10,000 today to fabricate a wing for him, I will say no thanks.  My time and materials are worth more than that. You, as the car builder, has to decide where you want to spend the money.  When I did the Phantom, I used all NHBB rod ends (mil-spec, x-rayed, stainless, extra tight tolerance). To replace them all today would cost well over $5,000.  When I built the new car, U.S.dollar was at 1.6 Canadian.  I chose to use Aurora instead. The smaller ones, the balls all bind in the teflon housings.  There is a difference, and friction in the suspension is supposed to degrade ultimate grip.  As they say, pay your money and take your chances.   

I think to build a high quality national winning car, the cost is never low no matter which class you build in.  I still think SM is the real money pit and AM pales in comparison in terms of costs.  In terms of hard work and effort, AM is the toughest since the builder has to build most parts if he doesn't want to compromise the packaging.  The packaging is the most challenging part in the whole process. 

Good luck to all the people who are building a car on this forum. If I can help by answering any questions, I will try if I know the answer.

Joe 

Phantom:

In terms of hard work and effort, AM is the toughest since the builder has to build most parts if he doesn't want to compromise the packaging.  The packaging is the most challenging part in the whole process. 

I'm glad that you said this, because I have been pulling my hair out trying to get all of the required pieces into a 72" x 42" box!   I thought that I was over-analyzing the details, particularly trying to make the cockpit area handicapped-accessible since I'm not getting any younger or more limber.

Every one of my friends has come to me at one point or another, suggesting that I use blah, blah, blah from a production automobile in my project.  They mean well, but obviously don't understand the challenge of packaging and weight budgeting when you're trying to hit 200 HP and 550 pounds sans driver.....

In these post are some some good points about the cost and work load. But the top secret hand shake within the A-Mod population does not exist. One of my problems with running an A-Mod car is that I usually run in local events with no other competitor in the class. In terms of performance it’s hard to find some kind of reference. I feel that A-Mod cars are always under some kind of development, always looking for that next area of improvement. When you get a chance to watch a different A-Mod run a course and let’s say that you see that it’s faster on the slower part of the course that you. This experience can point out the best area’s you can spend you efforts. It is always helpful to have the conversations with and the experience of the watching A-Mod guys. Joe has been helpful with my wheel rates and I am sure if you have a problem, post it, and some advice will come.

 

Aurora bearings, if you spin the inner bearing in the race with a drill, you will get a glazed finish on the Teflon and it will free up the bearing making it smoother. In my experience, it does not shorten the life of the bearing. But. do not over do it and burn the Teflon

Neal

Great article, one of the reasons I buy the magazine.

 Though I wonder how many A-mod drivers get afford that package, it's a good demostration of what can be done with it.

---

Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd Chevy Corvette
Upgrading as stuff wears out and/or breaks
Autocross / Road / Drag in whatever class they decide to stick me in this week!
2000 CCM Group IIG Autocross Champ
Member: NCCC, NCM, SCCA, NHRA, CART

What magazine is the article in? Is it Racecar Engineering? If it is, what issue was it in, because I just started my subscription and have not seen this article. Thanks a lot.  Two of my buddies of mine at school are designing and A-Mod car for our senior thesis projects and I am doing the aerodynamics, so I am very interested in reading this article. Thanks.

Dave
 

---

University of Virginia
Class of 2008
1982 Crossle 50F Formula Ford
A-mod Suzuki Katana 600cc Project

Race Car Engineering August 2007 (Vol 17, No. 8) issue. Article title is "Solo Wings" by Simon McBeath.

---

Joe Gonzalez
1979 Legrand DSR- B Mod
Gilbertsville, NY

Thanks, I have the July, Sept., and Oct. issues of Racecar Engineering. That would explain it.

---

University of Virginia
Class of 2008
1982 Crossle 50F Formula Ford
A-mod Suzuki Katana 600cc Project

Why doesn't anyone put a body over the chassis. A little better air flow across the frame has to be worth something,  Chad

the Vancouver Special has a "body" if you want to call it that.  No visible frame other that around the engine.

---

Keith
'90 Miata with a really big roll bar
'07 MINI Cooper S with some sort of stripes

www.chaserace.com

www.tightntidyracing.com

Body over the chassis? Do you think the slight improvement in aero (if there is one) would outweigh the added weight (relatively high on the car) and the limits a body would impose on quick accessibility to adjustable parts for quick adjustments between runs. I would venture to say that it would not be a good trade off.

---

Joe Gonzalez
1979 Legrand DSR- B Mod
Gilbertsville, NY

thewelder:

Why doesn't anyone put a body over the chassis.

I believe that class is called B-Mod.....  

Yeah but we're stuck with a lot less wing and more weight!

---

Joe Gonzalez
1979 Legrand DSR- B Mod
Gilbertsville, NY

A body might clean up the airflow and you might be able to direct the air to the wings.  chad

Did you guys catch the FSAE article this month?

I'm surprised how many weren't running wings.

The one with ground effects and flip up wings was kinda neat.

---

Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd Chevy Corvette
Upgrading as stuff wears out and/or breaks
Autocross / Road / Drag in whatever class they decide to stick me in this week!
2000 CCM Group IIG Autocross Champ
Member: NCCC, NCM, SCCA, NHRA, CART

thewelder:

A body might clean up the airflow and you might be able to direct the air to the wings.  chad

Not necessary.  With 20 square feet of wing(s) allowed, most would run a fairly large front wing, typically with 3 elements. This front wing would typically disturb the air to a height higher than the roll hoop.  This means the rear wing has to be mounted pretty high to see clean air.  At this height, the chassis tubes (or bodywork, if any) are not really in the region where it would make a difference.

If you take a head-on photo shot of a current top running AM car, you will see two large wings and the driver's head in between them.  The chassis presents no frontal area to the air stream at all. This is quite different compare to all other road racing formula cars.

Joe

BrianCunningham:

 

I'm surprised how many weren't running wings.

 

There are many individuals (including judges) who still believe that wings don't work at FSAE speed (typically slower than SCCA autocross).  

Joe