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Hello

I am contemplating buying a 125 Shifter kart for autocross use only. I have a few questions for someone who had done this before.

My requirements for it are
1. Programmable Electronic Ignition - One reason for this is I am 220 lbs and i thinks it better to take the weight penalty (30lbs?) since it may be an advantage.
What are the benefits of Electronic ignition? More Power? Easier to Start? Easier to Maintain? What are the costs to adding Programmable Ignition to a normal shifter kart?

2. I am looking to run an internally stock motor mainly for reliability and maximising the bolt-ons (exhaust) - Can the kart produce about 40hp in this way?

3. Minimum weight = 350lbs + 30lbs penalty = 415 lbs.
Is it possible to have to have a kart within 185-195lbs with a little fuel in it?

4. What kind of chassis / motor should i look for to satisfy the above requirements + good enough for autocross use? Does it matter much?

Looking to be faster than ANY autocross car. Reliable, Fast, Easy to Maintain.

Let me know.

Thanking You,
Vinod Shenoy


 

 

 

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Vinax
1994 BMW 325i FP AutoX car
http://myfastbmw.com

Hey Vinod, let me see if I can answer your questions.  I'm on the KAC (Kart Advisory Committee), and run a shifter myself at the National level.  However, since I'm new, I may be wrong about the very technical engine questions:

1) PI (Programmable) Ignition is certainly not a bad idea when you're over the 385lb weight.  However, it's only benefit that I'm aware of is the ability to control the power curve and get a slight bit more power, also allowing higher revs.  I'm guessing around $3-400 to do PI correctly. 

2) I don't think PI is usually done with a stock motor, not sure I've ever heard of that, but I'm newer.  I don't think you'll hit 40hp, without a well built motor also.  Most of us without PI, but built motors, are around 40hp, I think 43hp is around the max achieved.

3) 195lb chassis/motor combo is light, they usually run between there and 205lbs dry.

4) The Honda CR125 is the most popular, easier to fix and find parts, and generally cheaper.  As for chassis, most will tell you to go with a bigger name brand with good support in your area.  Good brands are Intrepid, CRG, Birel, and Tony Kart.  There are others, but those are the really big names.

Somebody else with more technical knowledge may offer more help.  So you know, a local here in D.C. is about 440lbs total weight and has a TM (Euro) motor with PI and hangs with us pretty well, however, he's definitely at a weight disadvantage.  FYI, there is a previous National Champ that was 415-420 total in the past.

Brian Garfield

SCCA KAC Member

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**3Generacing**
Craig: STX MINI Cooper S
Jane: A Stock Boxster S
Brian: F125 2000 CTS/Honda
Lisa: F125 2002 CTS/Honda
Julian: CRG Cadet/KT100
Carson: Intrepid Cadet/KT100

Vinod,

Brian gives good advice.  Here are a few more tidbits:

1.  A Programmable Ignition is a good idea if you can't get under the minimum weight it is legal at, 415#.   I drove a PI kart at Topeka/Forbes in '05, and will say that on the "C" curve, the engine seemed to have monster power, althought it came on abruptly and was tough to use in cornering.  The kart's owner told me that he tried "D" once, and destroyed the motor's top end.  Easier to start or maintain?  Probably not.  Bit unless the programmed curves are at a critical (risky) level, there should be no additional expense or maintenance, either.

2. The reliability of a 2-cycle engine depends mostly on the fuel and oil being used, and the jetting/carb tuning, and ignition advance setting.  I ran a completely stock engine for several years, but am kind of addicted to the additional power a modified one produces now.  From what I understand, a PI will not be of much benefit on a stock engine.  The top engine builders consider PI to be part of an equation which includes piston, cylinder porting, cylinder head and even case modifications.  A shorter interval for top end service is recommended for modified motors, compared to stock.  The dirtbike or "moto" engines are pretty robust, compared to the purpose-built ICC kart engines. 

3.  There are differences in weight between chassis brands.  My Renspeed, with no fuel but otherwise ready to run is 205#.  Mike's Tony is 195.  Components can be sourced from very light materials, as in titanium.  Pay extra $.

4.  Do some research, particularly if you plan to buy new.  But most autocrossers feel that starting with brand new equipment is unneccessary, even not recommended.  If you want to get the best of everything, you can easily spend $10K or more for a new setup.  But a used one, just a couple of years old, can be had for half that, or less, including spares and accessories.  As far as being faster than cars, we usually are FTD.  That is because the A modifieds are rarely encountered.  Course depending, good B Modifieds can also run faster than karts, and occasionally at some venues, so can C Modified.  Last year at Topeka, one AM took the top two times for the event.  karts took the next five, with a superior FSAE taking eighth.

Alan Sheidler

 

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Alan Sheidler
F125#21
Honda/Renpeed

Howdy,

Alan/Brian/anyone else...

What's the scoop on shifters with electric starters?  I see that Birel makes an "Easy Kart" shifter, but it looks to be aircooled, which presumably means less power.

 I also saw this forum post (http://www.ekartingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=352474&highlight=#352474), which led me to: http://www.sac-motorsports.com/k9es.html.  Upshot... What's the scoop on the TM K9 ES engine?

Pretty low chance I'll actually do this, but it is pretty darn attractive... It'd be nice to buy a set of tires for what one of my current ones cost!  :-)

Mark

Mark,

Based only on what I see, the TM K9ES should qualify for F125, as an ICC engine package.

Considerations include a really high "buy-in", availbility of parts, and support from others running one.  Buying an engine and installing it on a chassis bring along other expenses, including the mount.  By far the most cost-effective way to go is via buying a used setup.  With a newer concept like this engine... Sell, I guess I am just not into pioneering.

Alan

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Alan Sheidler
F125#21
Honda/Renpeed

Hey Mark and Alan, how's THIS for a buy-in???

http://www.ekartingnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=60104

 Brian

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**3Generacing**
Craig: STX MINI Cooper S
Jane: A Stock Boxster S
Brian: F125 2000 CTS/Honda
Lisa: F125 2002 CTS/Honda
Julian: CRG Cadet/KT100
Carson: Intrepid Cadet/KT100

Howdy,

F125AXer:

Mark,

Based only on what I see, the TM K9ES should qualify for F125, as an ICC engine package.

Considerations include a really high "buy-in", availbility of parts, and support from others running one.  Buying an engine and installing it on a chassis bring along other expenses, including the mount.  By far the most cost-effective way to go is via buying a used setup.  With a newer concept like this engine... Sell, I guess I am just not into pioneering.

Alan

Thanks Alan.  Is there a primer on what stuff like "ICC" means?  I assume its related to one of the myrid classes that karts have?  Would an ICC engine have similar performance to 'regular' engines?

With the various dirtbike guys going to four stroke motors, how much longer will the KX, CR, YZ, etc. based setups remain viable?  Are there any kart classes using the new 4 stroke dirtbike motors?

Mark

(who, if he does this, will probably end up with a regular CR based engine but who likes to ask questions.  :-) 

ICC - InterContinental C (purpose built 125cc kart 6speed motor)

ICA - InterContinental A (direct drive, no clutch 125cc, rolling start necessary)

TAG - Touch And Go (battery start 125cc clutch kart)

ICC Motors are a little more high strung and put out more power in stock form than the Moto or dirtbike motor.  They rev higher and can, in certain circumstances, perform better than "built" Motos.  However, you'll still hear arguments in both directions.

It'll be a long time before parts won't be available for the 2 strokes, so they won't be going anywhere soon.  One of the reasons we (KAC) have not made concessions for the 4 stroke shifter (bike motors) to run in F125 is because there are no official movements in the National or International karting communities for classes included those motors.  They have been played with and some people run them regularly for fun track days.

The above deal that I posted is an unbelievable steal for a basically new kart with new battery start shifter engine, I'm still wondering why it's that inexpensive.  As is common in karting, somebody with bucks probably dumped the money in and just wants to get out fast.

Brian

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**3Generacing**
Craig: STX MINI Cooper S
Jane: A Stock Boxster S
Brian: F125 2000 CTS/Honda
Lisa: F125 2002 CTS/Honda
Julian: CRG Cadet/KT100
Carson: Intrepid Cadet/KT100

Yea....  what Brian said!

FYI, Paul Russell and Eric Nelson brought an ICC to Topeka last year.  Used it in the Pro.  Did not fare well, and swapped it out for a Honda, and Paul finished second in the National.  Part of the issue in autocrossing is that the ICC's have a much higher power band (and rev range) than the moto's, and just do not have the torque.  By homologation, they are restricted to a specific 30mm carburetor.  I am told that fact makes jetting far more critical than with what we run; a little bit off one way or the other, and performance is poor, or it melts.  And rebuilds on ICC....  I have heard horror stories.....$$$!!!  OTOH, those who race w2w say that at a track, no moto can keep up with a properly set up ICC.  And, there are "outlaw ICC's" running at some tracks, with big carbs.  Can you say 50+ hp?  sure..... Hope we never see one try to run with us....

 

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Alan Sheidler
F125#21
Honda/Renpeed