SCCAForums.com

Lefty Funk:

Jim G:

F125 on the other hand have a non-sandy line that is about 3 or 4 times their car width

How wide do you think a kart is?  Mine is about 54" track width at the rear.  The rules allow up to 55".  Strangely, that's the same maximum as F-Mod F500 cars are allowed.  How wide is a Formula Ford?  F125 significantly outperformed FM and CM at Nationals on PAX.  I don't think it was a width issue.

Short wheelbase on a "wiggly" course is a HUGE factor.  Especially on the East course.  Very slalom intense.  In fact I was flat out all but 4 small places.  There wasn't a slalom on either course that I couldn't flat-foot once I turned in for the first cone.  I didn't get a chance to watch CM, but FM, as a class, was struggling with the East course.  No one could smoothly make the slalom up the hill from the turn-around.  It was ugly.  I think their wheelbase was just too long to make that tough offset gates.

 I am suspicious that tight slaloms and low-speed are two factors that helped F125 beat A-Mod.

 

LM

So, Larry, you would agree that F125 should be 1.000, is that correct?  Maybe just .999 then?  I guess maybe a little over 5% is an appropriate adjustment if the karts had no advantage on the HPT surface and courses.  :-)

H's & K's,
Rick Ruth

The F125 was more of a jest, than being serious. The surface conditions and the size of HPT did not allow me to use much of my power. I even backed my boost back to 3 pounds for the second day (dropping about 60 HP, not much help). Poor driver performance was my problem. But, I stand buy my statement “If the PAX indicated the correct performance adjustment for each class then would appear that all the 1^st place drivers in each class should be near the top of the PAX standings”. This should always hold true at the Nationals, best cars, best drivers in each class.  Lynn's statement "Rick has told me that most classes will be adjusted upwards next year.  Some classes will be adjusted a lot."  appears the be the correct direction.

Stanley

rtp.rick:

So, Larry, you would agree that F125 should be 1.000, is that correct?  Maybe just .999 then?  I guess maybe a little over 5% is an appropriate adjustment if the karts had no advantage on the HPT surface and courses.

Oh, we definitely had the advantage on that surface and courses, but it wasn't because of sand buildup at the edge of the racing line.  The Ultra-smooth surface helped.  You put a series of small bumps out there, and we would have been a LOT slower.  Just look at Route 66.  That's a bumpy asphalt.  And karts get their asses handed to them on index.
 

We've said it before and we'll say it again, the F125 index is hard to nail down.  One day we can be 2+ seconds behind the top guys and the next we'll be ahead.  That could be a 5-8% swing from day to day.  Without a suspension, but with a large tire-contact patch relative to the vehicle, karts work well on smooth surfaces.  But RTP isn't supposed to be based on one event.  In fact, I can't think of a site that is as smooth as HPT.   And even in the *best* conditions we could ask for, FS still beat F125 by over a second on index.  And they ran 1st heat while F125 was 3rd heat!  Then there's ES that ran Tues/Wed, and made it to the top 10.  What about GS that had 10 of the top 60?  Still think F125 index is off?

 

I have the feeling that A-Mod was just off the pace last week.  I'd love to talk to George about his performance to see if he felt he got 100% out of his car.  F125 just looks good because the winner set FTD.  But lots of people beat AM on index.

 

Bottom line.... Rick, don't push F125 over .950 for 2008 unless all classes see a 0.005 shift for the slowing of A-Mod.   Thanks!

 

LM 

So the top B Mod car finished 430th(!!!!!!) in PAX this year. And he managed to beat the car that has won B Mod for the last couple of years. Just another data point to prove the B Mod index is not an indicator of anything, and for Pro Solo it is even worse (0.960 vs. 0.944)!

---

Joe Gonzalez
1979 Legrand DSR- B Mod
Gilbertsville, NY

Joe,

That is a good statistic to pass along and I know just who to pass it to:

Nancy Downing.

 

Reason is that Pro Solo staff adjusts the Solo2 PAX further for Pro and an argument has to be made separately by members to fight for parity.

All of the mod classes in Pro did get a PAX index extremely close to the Solo2 indexes when Mod became an indexed class...except BM.

BM was the only mod class to get a significantly tougher index than its regular Solo index.

I had many chances to borrow a BM car to run my beloved Pro events out West and refused because the BM factor was and still is so discouraging.

I asked Nancy about 2 1/2 years ago and she said that Bob Tunell had worked up the numbers. 

When I asked him-he said that he felt the big tires on BM cars should make them faster than other mod cars in Pro Solo.

Nancy and Bob are reasonable, so I reckon they will listen to good arguments that are offered.

 

My own argument for putting BM back in line with other mods is as follows:

Pro Solo performance does indeed follow solo well so the PAX indexes could be close and the rear tire argument is not meaningful

Big tires (Atlantic rears) are NOT unique to BM; AM, DM, and EM cars can and do use them also. 

Off the line traction is not strictly a function of tire size. The above mentioned classes can all run unlimited tire.

Static and dynamic anti-squat, shock valving, and weight bias are all also very important and...We all have to go around corners too.

Outside of AWD, there is only so much one can do to get off the line better with a RWD car before it won't turn. 

 

That said, if historical data is being used to adjust Pro Mod indexes currently, it ought to be updated.

I'm guessing that it has been at least 10 years since there have been any serious BM cars at any Pros, let alone the Pro Finale.

FM has gotten significantly faster with the 500cc Rotax motors. 

They are slightly faster or even with good BM cars to at least 60 mph. (tests down in Texas)

Tommy Saunder (BM) got beat by 2 FM cars at a Pro this year in Texas. 3 of the FMs were faster off the line and to the first corner than Tommy and Stu!

AM, CM, DM, EM all have gotten faster in the last 10 years.  BM has not changed much at all. 

Many AM, DM and EM cars have now been developed to the limit of the rules and big HP in DM and EM is much more prevalent now than it ever was.  

Honda/Integra and Mazda/Ford 2L motors make old fashioned Cosworth HP for a fraction of the price now. The 3 rotor Mazda for EM wasn’t around in the old days either.

CM and FM which are GCR classes got meaningful GCR changes that made them faster-aluminum heads and 500 cc Rotaxes respectively

BM is a GCR class too and absolutely nothing has changed for the Atlantic cars-and the DSRs have had significant weight added to them.  

Chuck

 

 

 

---

Chuck

Chuck,

 

Awesome research and summary.

 

I ran my first Pro this year and thoroughly enjoyed running it. It was a single course format event. If the Pax would have been the same as the National Tour number I would have finished in the trophies. The actual results due to the revised index were so frustrating that I won't run one again unless the Pax is corrected. As it stands now it severely handicaps the BMod cars for no good reason. The 60 ft times from that event showed most of the other mod cars launching better (RT factored out) than my motorcycle engined DSR. My tires are actually much smaller than what most of the DM and EM cars run. The 1000cc Yamaha in my car also makes very little torque compared to just about all the mod cars except the F500's.

---

Joe Gonzalez
1979 Legrand DSR- B Mod
Gilbertsville, NY

Chuck,

 I'm not contesting anything you state.  While some of the statements in your post are self explanatory, you have not supported many of your statements with factual numbers or examples.  Before sending them to the National office, you might want to think about going over everything and adding any facts you can to your statements.

 
Good luck.  BM really does have an awful Pro index.

Jim
 

 

BMatWork:

Joe,

That is a good statistic to pass along and I know just who to pass it to:

Nancy Downing.

 

Reason is that Pro Solo staff adjusts the Solo2 PAX further for Pro and an argument has to be made separately by members to fight for parity.

All of the mod classes in Pro did get a PAX index extremely close to the Solo2 indexes when Mod became an indexed class...except BM.

BM was the only mod class to get a significantly tougher index than its regular Solo index.

I had many chances to borrow a BM car to run my beloved Pro events out West and refused because the BM factor was and still is so discouraging.

I asked Nancy about 2 1/2 years ago and she said that Bob Tunell had worked up the numbers. 

When I asked him-he said that he felt the big tires on BM cars should make them faster than other mod cars in Pro Solo.

Nancy and Bob are reasonable, so I reckon they will listen to good arguments that are offered.

 

My own argument for putting BM back in line with other mods is as follows:

Pro Solo performance does indeed follow solo well so the PAX indexes could be close and the rear tire argument is not meaningful

Big tires (Atlantic rears) are NOT unique to BM; AM, DM, and EM cars can and do use them also. 

Off the line traction is not strictly a function of tire size. The above mentioned classes can all run unlimited tire.

Static and dynamic anti-squat, shock valving, and weight bias are all also very important and...We all have to go around corners too.

Outside of AWD, there is only so much one can do to get off the line better with a RWD car before it won't turn. 

 

That said, if historical data is being used to adjust Pro Mod indexes currently, it ought to be updated.

I'm guessing that it has been at least 10 years since there have been any serious BM cars at any Pros, let alone the Pro Finale.

FM has gotten significantly faster with the 500cc Rotax motors. 

They are slightly faster or even with good BM cars to at least 60 mph. (tests down in Texas)

Tommy Saunder (BM) got beat by 2 FM cars at a Pro this year in Texas. 3 of the FMs were faster off the line and to the first corner than Tommy and Stu!

AM, CM, DM, EM all have gotten faster in the last 10 years.  BM has not changed much at all. 

Many AM, DM and EM cars have now been developed to the limit of the rules and big HP in DM and EM is much more prevalent now than it ever was.  

Honda/Integra and Mazda/Ford 2L motors make old fashioned Cosworth HP for a fraction of the price now. The 3 rotor Mazda for EM wasn’t around in the old days either.

CM and FM which are GCR classes got meaningful GCR changes that made them faster-aluminum heads and 500 cc Rotaxes respectively

BM is a GCR class too and absolutely nothing has changed for the Atlantic cars-and the DSRs have had significant weight added to them.  

Chuck

 

 

 

---

Jim Garry

Jim,

Thanks for the suggestion. I can provide the numbers, but I felt it was already way too long. Perhaps an outline version with quantiative support would do it.

On the other hand, the real bottom line is that Pro is losing BM participation until it fixes the BM index.

So maybe it would be better for the Pro staff just to see letters that read like Joe's?

"If the Pax would have been the same as the National Tour number I would have finished in the trophies. The actual results due to the revised index were so frustrating that I won't run one again unless the Pax is corrected. As it stands now it severely handicaps the BMod cars for no good reason. The 60 ft times from that event showed most of the other mod cars launching better (RT factored out) than my motorcycle engined DSR. My tires are actually much smaller than what most of the DM and EM cars run. The 1000cc Yamaha in my car also makes very little torque compared to just about all the mod cars except the F500's.

 

---

Chuck

This may just be a dumb question, as many of mine tend to be, but why is there a mod index class in Pro to begin with? Why is there a need to combine the National Tour classes? Is it purely a monetary constraint? I don't see how it would be a time constraint, same cars are running just classed differently. Obviously you still need a fair index to run the Pro format, but why combine the classes initially?

---

Joe Gonzalez
1979 Legrand DSR- B Mod
Gilbertsville, NY

In ProSolo you need 5 in your class to have a class, There are rarely more than 5 in Mod index let alone 5 in any individual mod class. Same for Prepared.  So they created the Prepared and Mod Index classes, rather than have us bump up a class until we make 5 (running heads up, no index) or run in a bump class.  It gives us a much better opportunity to get into the Super Challenge.

---

Keith
'90 Miata with a really big roll bar

www.chaserace.com
www.tightntidyracing.com
www.vorschlag.com

Chuck,

I think maybe two letters would be a good idea.  The short, to the point letter.   And then another letter with all the detail.  

When some people look at a statement without facts, they immediately dismiss it.  It's always good to back things up.

 

Jim

 

 

BMatWork:

Jim,

Thanks for the suggestion. I can provide the numbers, but I felt it was already way too long. Perhaps an outline version with quantiative support would do it.

On the other hand, the real bottom line is that Pro is losing BM participation until it fixes the BM index.

So maybe it would be better for the Pro staff just to see letters that read like Joe's?

"If the Pax would have been the same as the National Tour number I would have finished in the trophies. The actual results due to the revised index were so frustrating that I won't run one again unless the Pax is corrected. As it stands now it severely handicaps the BMod cars for no good reason. The 60 ft times from that event showed most of the other mod cars launching better (RT factored out) than my motorcycle engined DSR. My tires are actually much smaller than what most of the DM and EM cars run. The 1000cc Yamaha in my car also makes very little torque compared to just about all the mod cars except the F500's.

 

---

Jim Garry

Bmod participation in pro's . I almost could care less about the pax  it is so bad for Bmod that pro's are only for seat time

, The no cool down between runs is a killer for  rotary powered BMOD car , I will not run another pro unless  local between run cool downs and the older run format comes back . The last 2 years pro's in Texas i ran killed a motor the first day at both events due to summer heat and the new run format . I will not be back until that is changed back . I run the car with 2 drivers and 6 runs each at normal events with cool down and have no consistant problems with too much heat even in august . Never had an issue with the old run format.

 

JG  

Phantom:

underpaidslave:

 

 ...driving AM literally was the most amazing experience driving I've ever had....

  

 

If only more people have the chance to experience what you had, I think there will be more drivers entering A-Mod.

I got the chance to meet Stanley at Packwood.  Just happened to be the largest A-Mod field in years for NorPac Division at that event.  A few of us AM guys had the rare chance to talk about lots of things. The problem with running an A-Mod car is that most of us are usually running in local events with no other competitor in our class.  It's very easy to lose reference on a national scale in terms of performance envelope.  Overall, PAX is a great way to gauge the car/driver combination potential.

Joe 

 

Absolutely right,

 

I just joined the ranks of A-mod drivers with a modified F-500, totally under prepared for the class but still an amazing experience. I only ran it at 2 events last year, the first shakedown pointed out a few flaws that rendered it almost undrivable. then I got in 1 event after the mods and I agree totally with underpaidslave, I spent the whole event chasing the car, it was so far ahead of me it wasn't funny. total reactionary driving. I'm hoping that with some seat time next season I'll be able to get ahead of the car a little. plus I'll have new tires next year not 6 year old carcases.

 

Hopefully the turnout at Packwood will be as good next year, I want to see a top level car run and see how far behind I am.

 

As far as PAX goes, it doesn't look good to me, but I'm new on the scene and don't understand how it works, but all of the recent results I could find rarely had am A-mod above the bottom of the pack, either their aren't many fast A-mods or the Pax index is off. Maybe I just didn't see results where the top cars ran.

 

Pax or no Pax, this is the wildest driving experience I have ever had and I won't give it up.

 

Brian 

Brian,

I was not aware that you lived so close, I am just down the road in Vancouver , we should get together and compare notes, this is a rare opportunity when two A-Mods are so close together. I am sending my phone number by E-Mail.

I am sure that in A-Mod you will find a whole new driving experience. I remember the first time I took my car out, I took a glimpse at the tach, and flew past the next element of the course. Since then, I have turned the boost way down, and still have a hard time keeping ahead of the car. The fun meter stays pegged to full and when I get out, my knees are still knocking from the rush. I am sure that most people that got the opportunity to drive even a half fast A-Mod would want one.

As far as PAX goes, (I do feel it is off for most modified cars) you can still make it work to help estimate your development.

Neal

lightning:

Brian,

I was not aware that you lived so close, I am just down the road in Vancouver , we should get together and compare notes, this is a rare opportunity when two A-Mods are so close together. I am sending my phone number by E-Mail.

I am sure that in A-Mod you will find a whole new driving experience. I remember the first time I took my car out, I took a glimpse at the tach, and flew past the next element of the course. Since then, I have turned the boost way down, and still have a hard time keeping ahead of the car. The fun meter stays pegged to full and when I get out, my knees are still knocking from the rush. I am sure that most people that got the opportunity to drive even a half fast A-Mod would want one.

As far as PAX goes, (I do feel it is off for most modified cars) you can still make it work to help estimate your development.

Neal

 

Neal,

I had no Idea we were so close either. My better half said it's because us men don't talk about the important things, but with race cars around what else is there to talk about?

 

I'd love to get together and compare notes and pick your brain, you're a lot further into this game than I am. Maybe we could get together in a couple weeks, I'm getting ready for an Autox next weekend in Spokane, I have quite a bit to do to the subie as I don't think the A-mod would do well in ice and snow. do you have a snow car? nothing more fun than autox in the snow.

 

As for the driving experience in A-mod, after only running the shootout, I still walk by the car in the shop and my knees get weak. I want back in it so bad I even took it for a spin on the private road I live on, you think they're traction limiter on asphalt? try gravel.

Coming from a STS stock legacy with an automatic, upgraded sway bars only, to the A-mod was such a drastic difference with the legacy you would get to an open section of course, have a sandwich then look for the next element. it's hard to imagine being able to look far enough ahead to keep on line at A-mod speeds, like I need to be setting up for the finish line at the starting line.

 

As far as pax goes, I have never ran on concrete, but if the difference is as great as some have said I could see the spread, I don't think production cars would see as big of gain. 

The club I belong to unfortunately scores by pax only because there are not enough people running, everyone would win their class, I don't think we had 2 cars in the same class more than a couple times last year. At the Shootout I pax'ed 33rd out of 79 so I still have a long road ahead. all of the courses we run except for Packwood are tight slow courses so I don't think even the top A-mod cars would do particularly well on them with little chance for the aero to work, That's probably where my advantage was on those courses without the drag and weight of the aero package. but if we get to a course where the aero really kicks in I'll fall to the back of the pack. I guess we'll see this year in Packwood, you are going aren't you?

 

Brian