SCCAForums.com

MattP:

GChambers:

You are way off base with this observation, IMO. There is a lot of improvement that can be done to the S2000 under the ST ruleset to make it MUCH faster. For example, the stock S2000 exhaust weighs close to 60lbs. You could easily drop 50lbs just right there.

 

You could do that in stock class. 

Matt... can't touch 'driver -> forward' in stock. There's where the add'l weight can be lost.

I think having 350Zs and S2Ks would be a great addition to NERs STU class.

 

--kC

 

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For sale: 2006 Nissan Titan LE Crew Cab. White. 40K miles. $19K. Wicked pissah to tow with.

The Z would definitely suffer from tire availability. The hottest tire I see in an appropriate size for the rear is a Kumho MX. Everything else is too small diameter, with the 6 speed you need at least a stock (26.7") diameter tire. You could go with a 255 Falken, but the Z definitely needs some meats. The 275/30R19 Bridgestone seems nice but it's a full inch too short.

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Brian Davis, 89 Civic Si, 158 STS

3rd gear? The VQ pulls pretty hard down low. 275s would really help pull the weight around the corners, and when you can stay in 2nd it would pull very hard. I've never had a chance to abuse a 350's shifter though, I don't know how fast you can pull the 2-3-2. Or GXP-style 1-2-3-2-3-2-3-2-3. :-P

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-Philip Maynard

No weenies!

Keith Casey - IMHO...:

MattP:

GChambers:

You are way off base with this observation, IMO. There is a lot of improvement that can be done to the S2000 under the ST ruleset to make it MUCH faster. For example, the stock S2000 exhaust weighs close to 60lbs. You could easily drop 50lbs just right there.

You could do that in stock class. 

Matt... can't touch 'driver -> forward' in stock. There's where the add'l weight can be lost.

I think having 350Zs and S2Ks would be a great addition to NERs STU class.

The stock cat-back on the S2000 is really heavy (about 60 lbs) because of the two big mufflers, that's what I thought GChambers was referring to.  The stock exhaust manifold is already a tubular header, I didn't think that and the cat were anywhere close to 60 lbs.

That said, I think the S2000 and 350Z would be a good fit for STU, and will talk with my region about maybe trying that out.
 

Losing the A/C drops another 40. Most good aftermarket headers drop about 10lbs and add some power. Seats can drop another 30 between the two.

It gets me all hot and bothered just thinking about it....

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90 Miata/89 CRX - STS2 #90/190

Page 4 and I still haven't seen a good reason why to not do this, which given this websites well deserved rep for ALWAYS being able to shoot pretty much anything down in flames... I think thats pretty telling.

BTW - While I think the S2000 would do well in STU it definately will not see the power gains other cars can see in that class.  That motor is pretty much wrung out from the factory and there isn't much more to be had there.  There will be some gains, but really you'll just manage to lose a little weight with the upgraded components more than gain power.  One s2000 guru I know of dyno tested a bunch of cat-back exhausts back to back and found all but one actually lost power compared to the stock exhaust.  ALL of them lost torque.

Those Honda engineers are pretty damned good, and they are already getting 240hp from 2.2 liters.

 

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'91 ITB Civic DX

Well, if nothing else, I wrote a letter and got it logged.  Sigh...  Maybe someday my S2000 will come out of retirement.

 It's called Sports Car Club of America but there isn't an ST class for sports cars.  Hmmmm... Maybe the first "S" should stand for Sedan.

In at least two cases, "we" would most likely be the SEB and STAC. 

I don't understand why Stock and SP Miatae are faster than Stock '89 civic Sis, and somehow that doesn't translate to ST.  Wow, if we could only find a Nationally competitive driver with a very analytical mind who has prepared both an STS Civic and an STS2 Miata to 'splain thangs to us...  Bueller?  Bueller?  Anyone?  Hollis? Hollis?

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Charlie Davis
Old age and treachery...

Charlie Davis:

In at least two cases, "we" would most likely be the SEB and STAC. 

I don't understand why Stock and SP Miatae are faster than Stock '89 civic Sis, and somehow that doesn't translate to ST.  Wow, if we could only find a Nationally competitive driver with a very analytical mind who has prepared both an STS Civic and an STS2 Miata to 'splain thangs to us...  Bueller?  Bueller?  Anyone?  Hollis? Hollis?

Thats pretty simple really.  In stock form the Miata is still a sports car, purpose built to be quick and fun.  The stock Civic is a hopped up grocery getter economy hatchback that understeers like a pig hunting for truffles.  Also note that the Miata is in E Stock and the Civic is in H Stock.

But when you are allowed to dial out that Civic understeer with springs and sway bars, the story changes.  Now both cars have about the same power to weight ratio and can be adjusted infinately to suit driver needs.  It mostly becomes a matter of FWD vs. RWD.

In short, an STS2 Miata is a little better than a stock Miata.  An STS Civic is WORLDS better than a stock Civic.

That said, at least the STS Civic and STS2 Miata don't share the same stock and SP classes.  The AS, BS, and BSP cars being discussed here DO share the same stock and SP classes but NOT the same ST class (STU).  So that question is still out there... Why not?

 

 

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'91 ITB Civic DX

Catch 22:

That said, at least the STS Civic and STS2 Miata don't share the same stock and SP classes.

The Civic, Miata, CRX, RX-7, MR2, etc. are all in CSP together.

STS+STS2 -> CST

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Matthew Huizing
1995 Saturn SC2 - H Stock
1993 Geo Storm GSi - STS

Stormy:

Catch 22:

That said, at least the STS Civic and STS2 Miata don't share the same stock and SP classes.

The Civic, Miata, CRX, RX-7, MR2, etc. are all in CSP together.

STS+STS2 -> CST

OK, they don't share the same stock classes.

And for some reason the 92+ Civic Si is in DSP even though it has more power and better geometry.  Its a little confusing sometimes.

 

 

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'91 ITB Civic DX

paulyg:

We run an STX2 class in my region. It's highly unsubscribed to.

i think that's a catch-22 where "no one runs it b/c no one runs it."  i thought about it in a MSM, but the lack of competition (plus the lower pricetag) steered me to STS2; i didn't want to be 1 of only 2 drivers in the class each event.

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Mike - #44 STS2
'91 Miata - racer
'07 CX-7 - dog taxi
www.phillyscca.com
www.GreyhoundAngelsAdoption.com

true, it _used_ to be fairly well subscribed, but now it's a ghost town. 

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Doug #81 STS2
1990 Mazda Miata
STU 2000 Audi S4 (retired)
STU 2005 Mazda RX-8 (retired)

So here is a thought. If you want it put your letters in to request it and give it a good business case. I personally don't see a reason why not but I also don't know a heck of a lot about the cars in question.

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Mike Booth

94 Mazda Miata Black ES
95 Mitsu. Mirage Silver FSP

Catch 22:

Page 4 and I still haven't seen a good reason why to not do this, which given this websites well deserved rep for ALWAYS being able to shoot pretty much anything down in flames... I think thats pretty telling.

BTW - While I think the S2000 would do well in STU it definately will not see the power gains other cars can see in that class.  That motor is pretty much wrung out from the factory and there isn't much more to be had there.  There will be some gains, but really you'll just manage to lose a little weight with the upgraded components more than gain power.  One s2000 guru I know of dyno tested a bunch of cat-back exhausts back to back and found all but one actually lost power compared to the stock exhaust.  ALL of them lost torque.

Those Honda engineers are pretty damned good, and they are already getting 240hp from 2.2 liters.

 

The line for STU has already been drawn.  To let the S2000 in, the line would need to be redrawn.  My question is-- how far out do you want to extend it?  If you let the S2000 in, then the Boxster has a right to be in there.  If the Boxster is in, what about the other Porsches?  What about the 350Z?  What about the C4 Corvettes? All are AS/BS cars...

See where I'm going with this?  While the S2000 may fit 'ok' in STU, fact is that we don't know.  Say the S2000 comes in and easily puts 2 seconds on the best AWD turbo cars.  Who's going to explain to them that their incredible push at last nationals and their $40K investments have now been shown the door?

While 'on paper' this sounds good--there are a lot of things to consider.

All IMO, of course.

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Todd
Too many ST cars

"Restricted Area Racing"

tkm:

The line for STU has already been drawn.  To let the S2000 in, the line would need to be redrawn.  My question is-- how far out do you want to extend it?  If you let the S2000 in, then the Boxster has a right to be in there.  If the Boxster is in, what about the other Porsches?  What about the 350Z?  What about the C4 Corvettes? All are AS/BS cars...

See where I'm going with this?  While the S2000 may fit 'ok' in STU, fact is that we don't know.  Say the S2000 comes in and easily puts 2 seconds on the best AWD turbo cars.  Who's going to explain to them that their incredible push at last nationals and their $40K investments have now been shown the door?

While 'on paper' this sounds good--there are a lot of things to consider.

All IMO, of course.

What is this mythical line of which you speak?

Does this mean every class we currently have is protected from having any new cars come in and bump them?  Is that the line you speak of?  If so, that line doesn't exist and never has.  EVERY CLASS could have a new "The Car" at any time.  You don't need to explain anything to anyone.  When you build a competition car you *should* know there is no guarantee of competitiveness or length of being on top of the heap.

In short, there is no "line" and you are fooling yourself if you think there is.

What are you going to tell all the A stock S2000 drivers **if** the Solstice GXP upsets THAT apple cart?  Do they get a line?  And if a new hot A Stock car comes along, shouldn't those S2000 guys have an ST option like so many other stock class drivers?

Sorry, but this is not a valid reason for anything.  And yes, if its currently in AS, BS or BSP why can't it be in STU?  That includes corvettes, 350zs...

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'91 ITB Civic DX

Catch 22:

What is this mythical line of which you speak?

Does this mean every class we currently have is protected from having any new cars come in and bump them?  Is that the line you speak of?  If so, that line doesn't exist and never has.  EVERY CLASS could have a new "The Car" at any time.  You don't need to explain anything to anyone.  When you build a competition car you *should* know there is no guarantee of competitiveness or length of being on top of the heap.

In short, there is no "line" and you are fooling yourself if you think there is.

What are you going to tell all the A stock S2000 drivers **if** the Solstice GXP upsets THAT apple cart?  Do they get a line?  And if a new hot A Stock car comes along, shouldn't those S2000 guys have an ST option like so many other stock class drivers?

Sorry, but this is not a valid reason for anything.  And yes, if its currently in AS, BS or BSP why can't it be in STU?  That includes corvettes, 350zs...

 

I will agree with catch here.  There is no guarantee in this sport that your car will stay competitive in a given class.  As for the other cars in AS/BS and BSP,  limiting them to a 275 width street tire will slow the Vettes and many others down significantly.  I don't understand the whole splitting up of 2 and 4 seaters in ST* classes personally.

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Keith
2008 Honda S2000

Catch 22:

tkm:

The line for STU has already been drawn.  To let the S2000 in, the line would need to be redrawn.  My question is-- how far out do you want to extend it?  If you let the S2000 in, then the Boxster has a right to be in there.  If the Boxster is in, what about the other Porsches?  What about the 350Z?  What about the C4 Corvettes? All are AS/BS cars...

See where I'm going with this?  While the S2000 may fit 'ok' in STU, fact is that we don't know.  Say the S2000 comes in and easily puts 2 seconds on the best AWD turbo cars.  Who's going to explain to them that their incredible push at last nationals and their $40K investments have now been shown the door?

While 'on paper' this sounds good--there are a lot of things to consider.

All IMO, of course.

What is this mythical line of which you speak?

Does this mean every class we currently have is protected from having any new cars come in and bump them?  Is that the line you speak of?  If so, that line doesn't exist and never has.  EVERY CLASS could have a new "The Car" at any time.  You don't need to explain anything to anyone.  When you build a competition car you *should* know there is no guarantee of competitiveness or length of being on top of the heap.

In short, there is no "line" and you are fooling yourself if you think there is.

What are you going to tell all the A stock S2000 drivers **if** the Solstice GXP upsets THAT apple cart?  Do they get a line?  And if a new hot A Stock car comes along, shouldn't those S2000 guys have an ST option like so many other stock class drivers?

Sorry, but this is not a valid reason for anything.  And yes, if its currently in AS, BS or BSP why can't it be in STU?  That includes corvettes, 350zs...

Stock class is *completely* different than ST, SP, P, etc.  How often do you see a shuffle of those classes (ST, SP, P...)?  More to the matter, ST has never been shuffled.  Not once.  ST has added classes, not tried to stick a square peg in a round hole and hope that it fits 'just right'.

In stock class, you know that your car may be upstaged by the offering next year.  Everyone knows this and accepts it.  In a class like SP, the SCCA usually tries to protect the investments folks have made by having classes that are established.  I think the majority of folks want it this way.  What are you going to do with a $40K xSP car that had one year and now is uncompetitive (and as such has no value to anyone--whereas a stock class car can easily be sold off for blue book value)?  This is still grassroots racing, not a pro team.  You're fooling yourself if you think as many folks would build a car for a class only to see it put out to pasture the next year.  We wouldn't have a sport if this constantly happened in any class above stock.

Now we have a few folks wanting to upset the genre of established ST classes.  I personally don't think it'll happen.  If you want a class for high HP RWD 2 seaters, then write you letters and you never know what'll happen in 2008 when new ST classes can then be discussed.

And as you know, cars in stock class translate different when in a modified form.  HS Civic beats up on GS cars in STS--by quite a large margin in many cases.  So basing ST classing on stock classes is only a guide--at best.

FWIW, just because you think something is flawed logic does not make it so.  And to say as much is very rude.  Maybe solo is a touch different from your roadracing background....

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Todd
Too many ST cars

"Restricted Area Racing"

tkm:

Who's going to explain to them that their incredible push at last nationals and their $40K investments have now been shown the door?

Idunno. Maybe we could ask Steve Hoelscher? ;)

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Defoliating a victory garden certainly works up an appetite.