SCCAForums.com

The two posts preceding yours should be taken only as counterpoint to the somewhat, ummm, ambitious claims regarding the relation between rotating mass and nonrotating mass in that double-length earlier post. 

---

seat time is where you find it (semi-retired) weenie CP '79 Malibu, (no longer ST/SP legal) '95 626

Just to add my $.02, Keizer makes wheels about as good as they cut & paste text.

I bought a set of 13x9 Magnesium centered wheels back in '00 (i think it was either '00 or '01).  I ran one local events (5 runs) on smooth asphalt, and then the 2nd event was a DFW National Tour.  I was running CSP in a '99 Miata.  They cracked on run #2 Day 1.

It took multiple contacts with them and eventually a letter from a lawyer to get my money back.

Go get a set of Panasports..

d
 

---

Dan Pedroza
CS 72/172
2008 Nationals CS first loser

Dan Pedroza

  I am sorry you have a personal problem with my family and its business.   Yours was the first set from the first run of mags ever produced by my father.  You and only you know the true and full details of the situation.  Things didn’t go as planned and I again apologize for this.    A lot can be learned in 8 years of racing on magnesium.   I will not bore others with the detailed dealings & the circumstances of that wheel design.   My father has since past & I will let this incident of over 8 years ago pass as well.  I am just trying to help customers that have questions about what we currently do and are currently excelling in.  If you do not know facts of our currant products of today I ask that you please let it go.     Again Dan, I am sorry for all your troubles

Wade Huisman

Keizer Racing wheels inc.

 

 

i have been running Keizer wheels since 2003 with no issues at all. i have had both the alum center and the mag centers. i am on my 4th set from him. again, no issues. every season i replace the bolts just as a precaution, but that may just be overkill from me.

the last pair i bought different wheelhalves, and replaced them myself. Wade was more then helpfull with this process. those have been going for a year now with no issues as well.

feel free to ask me about them if you see me in person.

 Chris Travis

81/181 SM h0nDuh cIvIC
 

---

Hi! I'm Rodney. "Hi Rodney!" I'm addicted to Solo....

thumbup from me concerning Keizers. Wheels are a wear item. To think any wheel will last forever is naive, and to think the lightest wheel on the market will outlast some of the heaviest wheels on the market is just retarded. You gotta pay to play.

---

Nate Whipple
NER
188/88 DSP ITR

I ran Keizer 15x7's on my 240Z till brake upgrades required a larger wheel, they weighed under 10 lbs each, in my case it was difficult to find any wheel with the offset and bolt circle I wanted in the size I needed so buyin a set of custom made Keizers was only marginally more expensive than a set of heavier off the shelf wheels, and when I did upgrade I contacted Keizer first but they were not making 17's at that time

ChrisSwearingen:

I don't think the OP is asking should I upgrade from my 12.5 lb Kodiaks to 10.5 lb Keizers. 

I believe he is jumping to the 275/35/15 A6s and needs wheels for them.  I bought mine a year or so ago so I don't have a feel for current availability or pricing.  He asked about a specific wheel, which I happen to have.

Maybe someone who has the current information or the time to dig it up should post a current price/weight/lead time list of the currently available 15x10 wheels.
 

I just bought a set of Keizer's about 3 months ago.  15x10, 4x100, 5" backspace, magnesium centers for my DSP 325i.  $425 per wheel.  Total time from order to delivery was less than 3 weeks.  Options for 4x100 15x10s are very limited, especially in the backspace and caliper clearance range that I needed.  Kodiak told me a minimum of 4 months lead time, for more money.  For the Miatas, you might be able to get away with Work wheels for a little less, and just as light, but be prepared for a 3+ month wait while they get them from Japan.  I couldn't find any others (Diamond couldn't make one to fit my specs, and Real didn't seem to have a good match either)

So far, they've been great.  Tire guy punched a hole in the silicone on one wheel, after adding silicone and telling him to be more careful, no air leaks, and they seem to be ready to hold up well, with the biggest concern I think I'll have is when it comes time to dismount and remount the next set of tires.

It was great to go from 48+ lb wheels/tire combo last year, to sub-33 lb this year, if for no other reason than it's easier to change tires. 

---

-------
'90 325i DSP

I'm in the "never again" camp.  Sorry, Wade, nothing personal.

A few years ago, Kevin Wenzel and I put together an E Prepared Rabbit, and we went with Keizers - we needed a 15x7" wheel with a lot of backspacing (6", iirc).  That made the outer bead-seat very narrow - a shelf, really; the drop center was on the outer edge of the wheel.  They were light.  They did hold air, I believe (when the tire was seated).  They were flexy - I remember lying under the car while Kevin was torquing the CV nut, and the wheel flexed significantly.  Shrug, whatever, I guess.  

Second or third run on them, I turned in - uphill left hand sweeper, and a tie rod broke - the car went straight off course.  Hmmm.  Upon closer inspection, no, a tie rod did not break - the bead had come unseated.  

They'd not hold the tire (Goodyear 20x9.5x13 slick) on the bead in the fronts.  Were the halves flexing & debeading?  Was the outer bead-seat too small?  Not enough retainer/lip to hold the bead?  Yes, I guess - I'm not an engineer; we called a custom wheel company & asked them to build a wheel; they said they could do it, they knew what the car was to be used for.  

I forget all the specifics, but it was inferred that we were doing something wrong, we were told to "run a DOT tire" or "change brands of tire," neither of which were acceptable - we did not buy 13" wheels for use only with Hoosiers or DOT tires, and if we were doing something wrong, it was the same mistake we'd been making for X years prior of goofing around with cars, and this was the first time the mistake bit us.  

We were told that a beadlock would solve the problem.  Probably would, but we bought Keizers because they are LIGHT; if we were going to buy beadlocks/add the weight, we'd have gotten a Kodiak or Brand X. 

The beadlocks were suggested at our cost, too - ummm, no.  Sorry.  We did not buy the wheel with the understanding that the tire "might not stay seated, and if not, you'll need beadlocks." 

We eventually did get our money back, with threats of legal interaction.  Sucks. 

I really like Keizer, conceptually.  Our experience left a bad taste in my mouth (almost literally, I only missed the cornerworker by ~6 feet), and while ours is unusual, it is not isolated. 

Dunno.  While I agree that ultralight bits will require maintenance and have a shorter lifespan, I believe Keizers go too far in that direction.  We're currently using 15x10.5" Kodiaks, which do what wheels should - hold air & tires.  They weigh 12.75# on a FedEx scale, they're stiff, I don't fear tiremonkeys, shrug, they're great.  

Keizers may well be 10# - that'd be  11# of rotating weight off the car.  I'd like that, but the last thing I need is a wheel headache  - and from personal experience/all the horror stories, a headache with Keizers seems far more likely than with other brands.

Lastly - 1# of rotating weight =  70# of static weight?  Really, or is that a typo?  If that's real, maybe I should reconsider - 11*70 = 770#.

I think that was supposed to be "7 pounds of static weight."  

.02c - cost being equal, there are better choices.  If K-wheels were in fact dramatically cheaper than Kodiaks or CCWs or BBS or _____, the decision would be harder - but they're not.  

On the Real Racing Wheels - I had a set of those for a while; they're awesome.  13x9s were ~10#, a poundish heavier than the ultralights, but they were cheaper, and durable, strong, round, trouble free.  http://www.rsracing.com is a great place to get them.   

 

 

 

Iain  

 

 

Ian, a couple of friends of mine were building up an EP Scirocco a few years ago and had a similar experience with Keisers.  The cantilever slicks wouldn't stay on the bead.  A set of Panasports solved the problem.  Don't know the particulars on the backspace but they were 13x7s.

I have two sets of Keisers for my DP MR2.  No real issues but they do leak and fixes are elusive.  I recently bought a set of Panasports.  They are slightly heavier but a far more robust wheel. 

One problem I have with the Keisers is having tire mounted.  Most tire stores will bend the wheels trying to mount cantilevers.  With vitually no tire support, even at the Tours, its difficult to find competent tire mounting services.   The Panasports make this easier with their more robust construction.

 

---

Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
http://www.terriehoward.com

Interesting - we bought ours largely because Dave Dutton of DP fame was running them without issue (this was in...2000?).  I forget what Kevin wound up doing for wheels - Monocoque, I think - but they worked fine (and were just about as light). 

I like light wheels, but there's a balance for me, and I'll take 1+ more if it means no headaches, leaks, creaks or the "bag of gravel in the transmission" sound when they need "maintenance."  

They are light, though.

 

Iain 

 

 

 

Iain Mannix:

I like light wheels, but there's a balance for me, and I'll take 1+ more if it means no headaches, leaks, creaks or the "bag of gravel in the transmission" sound when they need "maintenance."  

 

The EP Scirocco issue was more than 10 years ago. 

I have been using Panasports for many years.  Had a set on my old '74 DSP X1/9, then got a set of 3 pcs Panasports for the '80 DSP X1/9 that followed.  These were very close to Keisers in weight but were very stiff.  The Panasports I just got are only about 1 lbs heavier but way stiffer.  Like your experience, my Keisers flex.  I am just can't imagine that a wheel that flexes is a good thing.  The Panasports are way stiffer.  

 Interesting too that my Keisers (that came with the car when I bought it) have a bead stiffener welded to the outside bead.  While that's likely a good thing, that is extra weight at the very otter edge and therefore add significantly to the wheel's inertia.  I can't help but wonder what the actual difference in inertia between the Keisers and Panasports.

I do like light wheels.  But as you noted, at some point there is compromise that I am just not willing to make. 

 

 

---

Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
http://www.terriehoward.com

Huh, that's fantastic - they made it sound like they'd never, ever heard of a tire debeading.

Sigh. Oh well.  Kodiaks are spectacular.  Panasports, too, from what I've seen & heard, and the Monocoques on the EP car were great as well.

Sorry, Keizer - I just don't think I'm splitting hairs/being whiny.  

 

Iain 

 

 

I worked with Wade to have a set of custom 15" wheels made for my 1800# 914 a few years ago.  He was very helpful,  I spec'd a very lightweight wheel that was only used for smooth surface AX events.  I ended up with a 15x8 that weighed just over 9 pounds.  Those wheels transformed my car and immdediately put me a couple tenths ahead of a very tough class competitor who had always beaten my times by a couple tenths prior to using these wheels.  There were few lightweight 15x8 four lug 914 bolt pattern wheels avialable anywhere that I could chose from and Wade went out of his way to find custom blanks that would accomodate offset I needed for wide wheel that would fit under my stock fenders.

 Wade warned me that tire mounting would need to be done carefully.  All 4 wheels ended up leaking after I had a shop who assured me they knew how to mount tires on three piece wheels  Sure enough they had disturbd the bead applied at Keizer..  I went to race tire shop and they took wheels apart resealed and I had few problems after that.  No creaking or issues while I used them.

 Keizers definitely take some maitenance and are not a wheel I'd use for routine track days or AX.  They have a disticnt purpose - to make you very fast at those special events.  I used to race bicycles and wheels in that sport were never expected to last much more than a season.  Keizers are rebuildble if you abuse them.  They definitely have their place and I'm convinced that those wheels helped me win my class.

 I now have a fairly fast XP class 914 that I'm considering having a set of 15x9 wheels made and Keizer is on my short list of people to speak to.

---

Grant
XP Porsche 914-6

Try Monocoques, then - I was just reading stuff from the EP wheel debacle, the Monocoques which replaced the Keizers were virtually the same weight AND the tire did not dismount itself!

On the flexy bit - the more I think about it, the less I like the idea of a flexy wheel; talk about difficult to quantify compliance! 

Bicycle wheels are a decent analogy.  I had a little side business in college building wheels; I built some pretty silly stuff, and no one expected it to last forever, but they'd certainly not be happy if the wheel failed in the first race & needed quality time in the stand ever 100 miles.  There's a balance.

I'm glad they worked out for you!  I just think there are better choices that get what you want AND get rid of what no one wants. 

Is that right - a couple of _hundredths?_  Like you were losing by .020 seconds, then you bought leaky flexy wheels and started winning by .020?

It must be tenths. 

 

Anyway - good luck!  Bring it to Nationals!  Are you going to run slicks or the 275 Hoosier?

 

 

Iain

 

Iain Mannix:

On the flexy bit - the more I think about it, the less I like the idea of a flexy wheel; talk about difficult to quantify compliance!  

 

Yeah, I find air pressure changes less effective on the Keisers which I assume is due to the wheels flexing.   Yes, wheels have a limited life span.  So if my Keisers have a life span of half that of my Panasports, that effectively doubles the cost of the Keisers.

Also, reliability is an issue.  I once missed an event because a tire that leaked down at the site refused to air back up due to the tire not sealing against the wheel with the use of air tanks and small compressors.  I tried to find an open tire store that had a compressor with enough volume and flow to reseat the tire and failed in the available time.   Keisers are not faster when the tires are flat.   This is not a problem with my panasports. 

I should also note that I never had a 3 pcs Panasport leak.  Some of my Keisers do and nothing seems to work to reseal them.

---

Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
http://www.terriehoward.com

Iain Mannix:

Try Monocoques, then - I was just reading stuff from the EP wheel debacle, the Monocoques which replaced the Keizers were virtually the same weight AND the tire did not dismount itself!

On the flexy bit - the more I think about it, the less I like the idea of a flexy wheel; talk about difficult to quantify compliance! 

Bicycle wheels are a decent analogy.  I had a little side business in college building wheels; I built some pretty silly stuff, and no one expected it to last forever, but they'd certainly not be happy if the wheel failed in the first race & needed quality time in the stand ever 100 miles.  There's a balance.

I'm glad they worked out for you!  I just think there are better choices that get what you want AND get rid of what no one wants. 

Is that right - a couple of _hundredths?_  Like you were losing by .020 seconds, then you bought leaky flexy wheels and started winning by .020?

It must be tenths. 

 

Anyway - good luck!  Bring it to Nationals!  Are you going to run slicks or the 275 Hoosier?

Iain

Yeah meant tenths!  Planning to run 23x9.5x15 R25 Hoosier Slicks for some local cold venues where my current setup doesnt work well under 70 degrees..  I usually run Good Year R250 Cantis on 8" wheels.  I dont run many SCCA events with the car.  I run with UFO (local club) that uses SCCA classifications and mostly PCA events.  I'd love to do SCCA nationals sometime.  Its just too far for me to travel.

Honestly with forces my XP car exerts on wheels I'm going stronger this time around.  I use 15x8 Jongbloeds currently.  Very nice light but very strong wheels.  I bought them used for a deal.  Cant afford their new ones.  Even parts to go to 9" is expensive. 

More cycling comparisons.  The Keizers are similar to  Time trial or Track wheels used in cycling.  Very specialized limited use.  We have a smooth cement AX venue in California that was perfect for these Keizer wheels.  I had a low HP lightweight car and was using 205 DOT Hoosiers. It was a setup that worked perfect for that application.  I wouldnt want to use them on much other than that.  Also price was about $100 less a wheel back then!

 Here's a picture of the car in current form.

---

Grant
XP Porsche 914-6

Arghhh Matey  It a Pirate in a smurf mobile.

 

---

Want to go faster, please send money.

I too have 13x8 Keizers and notice they flex and leak.

Over the winter, I was planning on rebuilding them, maybe even widening with new lips. 

I am wondering if anyone can point me to a proper rebuilding/sealing diy...?

Do I require new bolts to do so?

 

---

Sead Causevic
'80 SM Scirocco (PNW)

Let's add a bit of fuel to the fire here.

A friend of mine just sent me a note about his experience driving an Exige on Keizers at the Packwood NT.  It went something like this:

"I was co-driving the Exige this weekend at Packwood and one of the 15x10 Keizer wheels with only 3 events on them failed. And by failed I mean all 4 spokes sheared off and the barrel and half those spokes rolled off into the bushes in the middle of a 40MPH sweeper. The center was still securely bolted to the hub :| Luckily, no one was hurt."

Although the fellow that posted from Keizer has a good point where these wheels require maintenance and are light to be fast, I think they might be on the wrong side of that balance of strong vs fast.

I like my Keizer wheels, even considering how soft and leaky they are. 

However, it seems that Keizer should make some kind of a positive move towards the market they are catering to and address the quality and safety issues that are evident with their wheels.

 

---

Sead Causevic
'80 SM Scirocco (PNW)

my first thought when i saw jay's run halt so abruptly was, "did he torque his lugs", a la the rx-7 mayhem from last year.  i can't honestly say that complete wheel failure was as high on the list.  scary.

---

1998 Acura Integra Type-R - DS
2003 Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V - STX/GS [SOLD]