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Peter Raymond:

I agree that there are a limited number of drivers going into the mod classes.  You have to show them that CM is a great class before they make the shift.  Once they enter F125, or FM, it's usually too late....

Maybe the first step is to talk to FM and F125 drivers and find out where they came from, then use that information to go talk to the future mod drivers.

As a kart guy, maybe I can lend some insight.  First, I came into mod directly from stock.  I jumped from the first car I ever autocrossed, my uncompetitive FWD daily driver, straight into F125.  I had been to Nationals and several Pro Solos over a 5 year period and was ready to find a new class.  I was given an opportunity to co-drive with a Nationally competitive driver in his F125 kart for part of a season.  By the end of the first season I bought my own.  Total cost to get a kart that I brought to Nationals a month later: $4000.  Its the same chassis that I used to finish 4th this year.  Since then I've spend a few thousand $$ to replace/upgrade almost every component (including major engine work) but not as much as would have been spent preparing a Nationally competitive ride in any other class.

Since I starting running F125 I have driven an FM F440 (not a competitive one) and a FF1600 (CM Championship winning one) at various events.  After driving the F125 kart, I can honestly tell you that I was bored in the CM car.  The F440 was no great thrill either, but I could see myself in FM before CM. I realize that CM is a faster class, so its not the speed I'm looking for.  Its the "kick-in-the-pants" thrill that a 2-stroke engine can provide.  The only car I've driven since that I really enjoyed was an ASP Corvette Z06 (well-setup one).  And that's not in my price range.  For that money, I'd just buy George's BBR Shark.

So Peter is sort of right.  If you want to build the class size up, you need to start by talking to those drivers who are still in Stock or ST, and are looking to stay in the sport but aren't able to be competitive in their current class.  Offering co-drives to give them a taste of the class goes a long way to planting the seeds.  Even if its only fun-runs at one event.  And do it BEFORE they run F125.  That's a drug that's hard to quit.

Also, F125 is a tight group.  We have been promoting that with every person we talk to.  We've really worked at the local level.  In Detroit we have seen as many as 10 kart drivers at our LOCAL events.  How many region's have 10 mod cars at local events?  Heck, Detroit Region took 4 of the 8 trophies at Nationals, with 2 others in the top half of the field.  We're super competitive, all the way from regional events up to Nationals.  That comes directly from the local push we've made at our regional events to build the class.  And that's exactly what Gary Kramer wrote.  Why join a class with no regional competition?  You have to build a competitive base regionally, then let that blossom into the National class.

Larry MacLeod

 Must there be a parts supplier nearby?  I don't mind buying parts long distance.  Technical expertise can be had long distance also.  ICP/Citation encourages me to call them (I'm in NY/New England, they are in Indianapolis).  They encourage me to call them during events on the weekends.

Would having limited slips and rear diffusers make CM any happier?.

If things just don't seem to be a treat at Topeka and similar places, maybe it is time to try some new ideas.

Those 2 items may make driving the lower traction surface and dirty corner courses more fun.

The limited slip ( the right kind) would allow the same turn in and light throttle balance as an open rear but allow more power to be applied earlier and/or, the car simply just set up for more roll stiffness to the rear.

The rear diffuser would dial in more understeer as speed increased for fast slaloms/sweepers while simultaneously allowing a little more oversteer to be used in the tight low speed stuff. 

Chuck Voboril

Is CM unhappy?  I haven't hear that, just pondering over whay the class numbers are going down.  (BTW, my opinion is that niether one of those things will do much.  I think the formula is fine the way it is.  Changing it would mean a drastic change, not little stuff.)

Anyway, I think the trend is more toward dual use vehicles with the increasing growth of ST classes.  I personally got out of CM because of the towing/owning a trailer/owning a tow truck bit.  It's obviously more of a financial tie up too. I bought a cheap STS car and my Daughter and I drove to the track, ran, drove home.  Was it like driving a CM car?  Not a chance, but i still had fun.  You gotta really like these cars and want to drove them to get into the class I think.  I think (and I hate thinking it) that if the cars had buzzy, screaming bike engines with big ass wings, there might be more initial attraction to running something that sounded/appeared cooler.  Just a thought.

PS - I really miss driving my Swift.

Pat may be right in the engine area anyway

Formula fords are maybe getting a little "old guy" (I'm in the catagory)

they're hold overs from from roadrace days........give them 1600 Miata engine with a few bolt on performance goodies

that way ..there are parts and folks understand them...that might kindle some new interest

One of the great things about CM is that you don't need to do anything major to it in order to be competitive.  FF is still the 3rd or 4th largest class in SCCA Club Racing and all you have to do is find one at the price you like, change gears, do an alignment, and drive.  If we change the rules to allow alternate engines and "a few bolt on performance goodies", then we up the amount of money needed by ALOT and we also require people to have to design and fabricate new engine mounting.  Also will need a new transmission probably. 

The car is great.  No need to change it.  Right now, the car is sort of the "stock" category of Modified.   The only issue C Mod has is introducing people to the class and hoping a few take a liking and buy a car.  Anything more would lead to an immediate death of the class.  The first thing I'd do (and most other C Mod owners) would be to sell the car back to a Club Racer. 

That's another great thing about the class ... i.e., when you feel you are done with the sport, or maybe just the car, you have a huge market out there to sell the car to a Club Racer.  If we bastardize the car, it would be valuable to no one.

Jim G:

.  If we bastardize the car, it would be valuable to no one.

 

Look no further than Solo Vee for evidence of this.

--Andy

The tight knit group feeling is a big reason I got a kart and decided to run it nationally in 08. I ran Adrian Iley's kart at a pro last year, and when it broke the 1st time people came offering rides (thanks Tom H.) and help to fix it (John Garcia). Then that night I got setup help from Ron and Russell.  The next day The chain came loose and we had no tools to fix it, so Tom again came to the rescue for Adrian for his last couple runs. We both drove like crap and were way back, but had a blast.

And then the way it drives....wow. The 2 stroke kick in the pants I agree is a blast. I also enjoy the challenge of trying to be on line and smooth and turn in way earlier than I ever thought possible....even earlier than my ES Miata. It's just a blast.

I've also driven a lot of cars (FM Red Devil, BM Ralt, DM Lotus, various Prepared, SP, ST and stock class cars) and the kart is the most fun per dollar. The kart was purchased for $2000. Since then I have bought 1 set of tires ($190 with tax), new rain tires and wheels mounted ($240 on ebay), an airbox and filter (on ebay $40), and longer rear hubs ($50 used). I plan on replacing a bearing up front (shouldn't be more than $50 with labor), and a rear axle that's thicker (maybe $100?). And some mild porting of the head by a friend in his garage (motor is stock now). Also I bought an open trailer for $450 with the modifications I made to it. And the suit was $150.
 

 So my total investment is $2120  (I split the $2000 purchace price with my co-driver).  So you show me a vehicle that goes this fast for $3500 and can trophy nationally with the right driver. :)  It's great. And I can't see ever running it wheel to wheel for the same reason I don't road race...can't afford it. But when I do, I"ll get a rotax max for that ;)

Lefty Funk:

Peter Raymond:

I agree that there are a limited number of drivers going into the mod classes.  You have to show them that CM is a great class before they make the shift.  Once they enter F125, or FM, it's usually too late....

Maybe the first step is to talk to FM and F125 drivers and find out where they came from, then use that information to go talk to the future mod drivers.

As a kart guy, maybe I can lend some insight.  First, I came into mod directly from stock.  I jumped from the first car I ever autocrossed, my uncompetitive FWD daily driver, straight into F125.  I had been to Nationals and several Pro Solos over a 5 year period and was ready to find a new class.  I was given an opportunity to co-drive with a Nationally competitive driver in his F125 kart for part of a season.  By the end of the first season I bought my own.  Total cost to get a kart that I brought to Nationals a month later: $4000.  Its the same chassis that I used to finish 4th this year.  Since then I've spend a few thousand $$ to replace/upgrade almost every component (including major engine work) but not as much as would have been spent preparing a Nationally competitive ride in any other class.

Since I starting running F125 I have driven an FM F440 (not a competitive one) and a FF1600 (CM Championship winning one) at various events.  After driving the F125 kart, I can honestly tell you that I was bored in the CM car.  The F440 was no great thrill either, but I could see myself in FM before CM. I realize that CM is a faster class, so its not the speed I'm looking for.  Its the "kick-in-the-pants" thrill that a 2-stroke engine can provide.  The only car I've driven since that I really enjoyed was an ASP Corvette Z06 (well-setup one).  And that's not in my price range.  For that money, I'd just buy George's BBR Shark.

So Peter is sort of right.  If you want to build the class size up, you need to start by talking to those drivers who are still in Stock or ST, and are looking to stay in the sport but aren't able to be competitive in their current class.  Offering co-drives to give them a taste of the class goes a long way to planting the seeds.  Even if its only fun-runs at one event.  And do it BEFORE they run F125.  That's a drug that's hard to quit.

Also, F125 is a tight group.  We have been promoting that with every person we talk to.  We've really worked at the local level.  In Detroit we have seen as many as 10 kart drivers at our LOCAL events.  How many region's have 10 mod cars at local events?  Heck, Detroit Region took 4 of the 8 trophies at Nationals, with 2 others in the top half of the field.  We're super competitive, all the way from regional events up to Nationals.  That comes directly from the local push we've made at our regional events to build the class.  And that's exactly what Gary Kramer wrote.  Why join a class with no regional competition?  You have to build a competitive base regionally, then let that blossom into the National class.

 

Larry MacLeod

Not taking anything away from F125 ... I think that tight knit feeling exists in many, if not most, classes.  It's certainly there for CM.  Over the past decade-plus, I can think of one time when I had a problem.  Otherwise, it's been guys rushing to each other's aid with tools, labor, parts, and sharing of cars.

Jim G:

One of the great things about CM is that you don't need to do anything major to it in order to be competitive.  FF is still the 3rd or 4th largest class in SCCA Club Racing and all you have to do is find one at the price you like, change gears, do an alignment, and drive.  If we change the rules to allow alternate engines and "a few bolt on performance goodies", then we up the amount of money needed by ALOT and we also require people to have to design and fabricate new engine mounting.  Also will need a new transmission probably. 

The car is great.  No need to change it.  Right now, the car is sort of the "stock" category of Modified.   The only issue C Mod has is introducing people to the class and hoping a few take a liking and buy a car.  Anything more would lead to an immediate death of the class.  The first thing I'd do (and most other C Mod owners) would be to sell the car back to a Club Racer. 

That's another great thing about the class ... i.e., when you feel you are done with the sport, or maybe just the car, you have a huge market out there to sell the car to a Club Racer.  If we bastardize the car, it would be valuable to no one.

 

Biggest obstacle (speaking for myself especially) to entry in CM:  Need a house with a garage, and a tow vehicle (though I bet just about anything could tow one...   it doesn't weigh much more than my old jet ski did).

Jim also makes a good point that the FF is a truly dual-purpose track/auto-x car.  It is probably the only car out there that you could use for both and be competitive.  People make such a big deal about driving the car on the street, but street driving is overrated, IMO.  Interacting with drunks, soccer moms and inattentive drivers on the road is not my idea of fun.

 Bret

64ES

True, but I can tow my kart with my automatic protege or the Jetta easily :)  I'd need a truck of some sort for the CM car. But the CM car is probably one of the best dual/triple purpose cars. DE, Autox, Club race. It does it all.

Now that kart can run all kinds of racing with other karts, but I cant go to a DE or TT with it :(

Davebs14:

True, but I can tow my kart with my automatic protege or the Jetta easily :)  I'd need a truck of some sort for the CM car.

No you don't.  I towed mine (easily, and fast) with my 173hp '93 VW Passat VR6.

Andy Hollis:

Jim G:

.  If we bastardize the car, it would be valuable to no one.

Look no further than Solo Vee for evidence of this.

--Andy

I was thinking a little more big picture.  I think the Road Racing class needs to update.  I support and appreciate the dual purpose nature of CM, and agree that's a real strength.  The class needs updating IMHO.

Josh, 

I thought they weighed about 800lbs or something? How big of a trailer is needed for a CM car? I suppose it can be done then :)  I just see most guys with CM cars towing an enclosed trailer with a ton of spares.

The minimum weight is 1100lbs w/driver, so most of them weigh north of 900 lbs.  But you can easily get away with a small single axle trailer, and they are really reliable -- no need to carry around spares.

I had a pretty lightweight open single-axle trailer that weighed less than 800lbs.  The car lived on the trailer in my garage, it fit easily.  A single axle trailer with a wheel on the tongue is very easy to move around by hand too, even while loaded (it's nearly impossible to move a double-axle trailer by hand, because they won't turn).  When i wanted to work on the car, I just wheeled the trailer out of the garage, chocked the wheels, and rolled the car off.

Of all of the race cars, tow vehicles, and trailers that I've had, I think those days of towing a single-axle open trailer was easily the easiest time I ever had.  And best gas mileage too.

Best of all, you get to drive to the event in a comfortable, roomy car, not the compromise race car.  And, just like with the ST classes, you don't have to change tires at the event or really do anything to the race car.  When it needs attention (which isn't very often), you can do it in the comfort of your garage rather than out in a parking lot somewhere.

My original tow car was a 1988 5.0 Mustang 5 speed. Lots of fun. Only changed to a camper van because my wife got tired of hanging out all day in a car. Still use the same open trailer because the camper van is too whimpy to pull an enclosed trailer. As others have said there is really no need for spares plus when at an autocross would you have time to use them? I carry some stuff simply because I was driving long distances to big multi-day events like Nationals and Pro Solos. F125 is not an option for my old bones. Remember, these are low tech RACE cars built to withstand far more abuse than a bunch of autocross runs. Durability is not an issue unless you also road race the car. Even then they hold up as well as most other race cars and better than fast street cars used on track.

There are 3 really fast relatively cheap and easy to tow/store autocross classes: CM for a traditional race car for folks who like to tune suspensions and experiment with gearing, FM for folks who also want to be design engineers and fabricators, and F125 for folks who really want a speed rush on a budget and/or have better reactions and more flexible bones.

I did the street car thing. Drove to/from Nationals from the West & East coasts in my class winning Datsun Z and Lotus Europa. That was fine in my younger days.

Dick

85 Van Diemen RF-85   CM 85

Interesting comments. 

My interpretation:

Towed cars in general are probably not going to be so popular as gas prices keep climbing, but we have healthier Mod classes than CM currently.

We are pondering what is different these days about CM and I thought that perhaps CM was having more trouble having a good time driving Topeka’s' new surface.

That Topeka factor has indeed caused a few (by their own admission) people in other classes to "give up" on Nationals, so to speak.

Now "bastardizing” a car is another topic one must be careful with (keeping it in perspective, that is). 

Bike motor and different motors in FF1600-well, one can go to BM for that. No need for changes in CM like that , I reckon.  There is quite the booming market for used FF1600/2000's for conversion to bike motors in road racings FB class (was F1000) as well as for DSR -it may start happening in BM.  

Addition/subtraction of some bolt on parts that take minutes or at least less than a day to change may not be anyone's idea of bastardizing a car. 

Someone who runs at the top level in Solo and wishes to go road racing occasionally (and not be a back-marker) is faced with at least changing all the tires, the  brake pads, suspension settings, probably all the springs, some or all shock settings, and finally has to pop open the Hewland to change the ratios for the particular road course. If one had to bolt/unbolt a rear diffuser, for example, what are a few more minutes if one could have more fun at Topeka?

 Solo-Vees asked for a lot of stuff to try once they started running Topeka's new surface, and they got it all for 2008.  I.e. limited slips, more adjustable suspension , disk brakes, more motor options.

If all of you in CM want absolutely nothing to change-then thats OK too.

Its your class, so what do you want?

  Chuck Voboril

P38overhead:

Its your class, so what do you want?

 
More entrants.

Seriously, the class has always been about being GCR compliant.  That's one of its biggest appeals.  I have not heard any CM owners say they want to change the cars.  For what reason?  The cars are fine ... they have great handling (once you set them up correctly) and the motors are fine for autocross.  They look pretty cool too.  

Change engines?   A serious national road racer has to freshen the motor during the season and rebuild every winter(?) but autocrossers just keep running them year after year without much engine effort at all.

This thread is mostly about what would it take to bring more people into the class.  I doubt we'd get more people by saying we are going to switch to bike engines or increasing the wheel size or adding some other goodie.  We'd all have to do it and so we'd all go faster and the result would be a loss of money for us all and probably no new participants.

I suppose we really need some CP type personalities willing to stick their butts out the window of our tow vehicles, make flame thrower chili, and get falling down drunk when we go on stage to pick up our trophies.

Jim,

Well, one reason for any allowances would be to help alleviate some frustration with handling at HPT.

If that is definitely not a problem for CM, -then -I guess no one will ask.

Perhaps CM is more like BM, one of the biggest hurdles is just publiizing the class.

The general SCCA solo public probably don't know what the CM rules are, how to pick a car to buy, and what the strong points of the class are. 

I can remember getting excited about FF1600 while reading a Road and Track article that had a performance test on a new at the time 1985 (or whatever) Swift DB-1. 

 Quarter mile in the 12's, don't recall the exact cornering or braking G's but they were high.

Might be time for you or someone else to write an article for Sportscar or at least to supply someone like Jason Isley with material.   

These FF1600 are great handling cars with as close to no handling vices as one will ever find, very responsive,  easy to work on.

They tow easily and don't eat $1200 worth of tires per set like some SM2 cars.   

Some counter-point in passing reguarding the other classes mentioned in this thread:

The downside to F125 and FM F500 cars are that some people who never figure out how to set them up or drive these cars with locked rears and minimal suspension fast.

Then there are lots in some areas that are so rough that they will break axles and chassis of F125 and F500's.

Chuck Voboril