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CM Shrinkage
Last post 11-21-2007, 1:35 PM by AHB. 64 replies.
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 03-19-2007, 8:00 PM |
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Jim G
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Joined on 12-15-2005
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This post is a compendium of a conversation
conducted on the CM List run via team.net. We hope by posting it here,
folks not on the CM list may offer some advice. Jim
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Hi everyone,
I've been concerned about the health of CM for a few years. We keep
losing entries at the local and national level. Another FF driver in
NER is selling his car. I've tried to encourage people to
get into CM but I can't even convince those WITH FFs to come out, much
less get new people to buy in.
Are there any thoughts on what we, as a group, could do?
Best regards,
Jim
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Don't go in the cold ocean and you won't get shrinkage. At least that's what they say on Sienfeld.
Ray Colbert
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Don't believe it Ray. It wasn't the ocean that made George small ...
Jim
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Here in Kentucky Region we have seen a lot of growth over the past
few years. This year we should see 10+ cars and 12+ drivers at most
events.
The success and growth of CM in our region is due primarily to one
of our members buying up cars and bringing them back to Louisville to
sell locally. It is a hell of a group, we would love to see more people
travel to our events.
Adam
1986 Van Diemen
#28CM
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Hi Jim,
Speaking as a prospective CM racer, but as an active FM racer, I can share with you a few things that we on the Left Coast have managed to pull together, but it all boils down to one thing, in the end:
Centralized crewing.
Quite a few of us F Modders out here on the West Coast have teamed together to run and practice as a cohesive team with a real team identity.
This means we arrive together, leave together, pit together, and crew for each other, and compete as fiercely as fellow team drivers will.
I've noticed that a lot of the BM and CM folks out here do tend to socialize but are really singletons.
This puts a coherent front to joe public, who is already accustomed to seeing this kind of activity on TV and now wants to see the "real deal".
And this, of course, has become a major part of the racing experience for me, so much so that I will drive 160 miles each way to go and run with my team than drive 40 to run by myself.
I think that should tell you something right there.
There's simply not enough of us to be one-man or one-family teams, plus it's much better competition if you can share the better guy's MaxQ data and both look at what you're doing on the same laptop.
Since we're all running Vees, we tend to pool parts and expertise as usual, and obviously if someone goes down, everybody who is not running becomes a part of the pit crew.
Now if you have 4 or 5 cars running separately, that's pretty impressive, but even with 3 cars running, there's still a minimum of 3 people, usually around 5 or 6, in the "crew", at every event.
So that's a tangible and very visible presence, and that gives people something to see, and something to aim for. This year we've sold two "new" team members and hope to pull a few more off the track in an impromptu "Vee Challenge" - (yes, folks, track Vees against Solo Vees... )
Now that kind of activity in C Mod would be a lot easier overall, due to the lack of obvious disparity in the different cars (track Vees are 1200, solo Vees are 1600, for instance), but I'm sure you could get a local challenge going, and also get some of the track guys to come and use your practice days for quick teat-and-tune runs. The cost differential alone would be enough to get some track guys over, and then it's up to you to get them interested.
But since we are driving "real" race cars, it stands to reason that the people at the Subaru teams or the Evo clubs are looking at us going "now there's a real race team" -- which is what we look like to the outsiders, and, probably, truth be told, how we feel ourselves.
Who knows? San Diego Team 5150 may, sometime in the future (when one of us makes the big bucks and the 2008 rule book implements the 1900cc Solo First category), come around to your town and challenge your team -- in C Mod or F.
Got team?
Empotepix
1968 Lynx Solo Vee
1986 RF86
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Boy, now I want to move to Ky or Ca.
The team concept is a very good one. When I go to New England Region
events there are two other FF's there. And we all share and help each
other. I'm sure that competitors in other classes can see us all
getting along, sharing parts, tools, ideas on how to drive the course.
But now at least one of those guys is leaving and there doesn't appear
to be anyone coming in. We used to have more in our class at NER
events and at Northeastern Divisionals and Tours. Maybe it's just the
northeast? Maybe. But numbers are down in CM at Nationals too.
We'll never have the glory days of 45 CM entries at Nationals again
because of the split off of current FM cars. But it would be
reassuring if we could climb back up to 30 entrants at Nationals.
If we (or I) were to go on a campaign to convince people to purchase CM cars, what do you guys think that could entail?
Jim
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Jim,
I think it is just the story of the FF1600 class in general and the
entire mod classes in autocross. I don't know why people would rather
race a street car rather than a pure race car, but they do. I've tried
to explain that it is less expense in the long run and more fun but no
one believes it I guess. I'm doing more time trials and hillclimbs
myself with George Bowland and another CM autocrosser, Dave Cutchins. I guess the
move from faster flowing courses has something to do with it for me.
Stan Vann
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Jim,
Luckily, here in Louisville (KYR region) we have a great CM group. At our first event on the 25th, we expect 12 entries. There are 10 FFs living in Louisville now. We get folks from Cincinnati, Indy & several from Michigan visiting several times a year. Some are 2 driver, so it will be a busy class!
Seems to me, it takes a solid base of cars to attract others. We have had 5 or 6 steady cars for a number of years. Other folks saw what a great time we were having with the CM cars....and a number have jumped in. We are trying to get all the CM cars together for a group picture. I will send out once we get it. Good Luck!
Geoff Hale Louisville KY
RF-86 Van Diemen 82-F Reynard
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It's a great class. If I was going to get back in and run Solo. That would be exactly where I would go.
But I'm still a big fan of S2's. I know with the right setup(had that) and a great driver(not me) the cars
can win in CM.
Mike Bultemeier
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Jim,
Are you seeing people leave for other classes, or just quit
soloing? Here in GLDiv / CenDiv we've seen overall attendance drop for
the past two years, including CM. But I don't know anyone who's sold
their FF and gone back to a different solo class. I suspect it's just
the economy.
Don Elzinga
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The two guys we're losing this year will not be continuing in Solo
afaik. [edit: that may be incorrect for at least one of them.]
While it could be the economy that is keeping people from coming
into the class, there are a slew of new Loti coming out and
Corvettes ain't cheap and neither are a whole lot of other cars but their classes are doing well. I
think what bothers alot of people is they see a FF as not only a car to
buy, but a trailer and a tow vehicle also. I don't know how to
convince someone that doesn't want to deal with that stuff.
Jim
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I don't know about the weight of my opinion here... but the reason I am not
there is simple: no car. CM is by far the most exciting. Open cockpit,
open wheel... a true racing experience. Anyone that says that racing there
sports car is cheaper is not considering the added maintenance and TIRES! to
their costs. Yes, a trailer, yes a tow vehicle... but the year to year
costs do not seem comparable. So, begs the question, what is the cost?
Tires? Engine rebuild, etc.? What are the costs for running an FF for 1
year? 5 years?
Robert L
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Hello Guys
I have run C/M for over thirty years in autocrossing. First with
a 1968 Hawke FF and a 1984 Reynard FF since 1991. This last time around
I ran local, regional and National Events pretty much everywhere. The
best reason for running C/M is the fact that the rules have remained
vitually the same since forever. Very little upgrading has been allowed
over the years so costs remain level year in and out. No chasing the
next best vehicle to run. All cars are basically the same. The driver
and setup person being the key ingredients to winning.
Tires...$600-700. Engine rebuild $4000.009 (Legal engine) should last
10 years of autocross easily. Engine maintenance should easliy be under
$200 a year (plugs, points, condenser, oil, radiator fluid, wires,
filters, etc.
There were events even on the local level where 4 or 5 FF's would
show up and National events would see 35-40 cars.I was running in the
WDCR (FedEX field series) for the last couple years and plain just got
tired of never having another car to compete with. I took the Reynard
Hill Climbing and I was immediately hooked. I ran the Ford for only one
season and purchased a DSR so that I could go faster (Ford has a 7:31
R&P and limited to 114 mph). I still have the Ford and will
probably autox it a couple times this year if timing permits. The car
is for sale I guess and can be seen at dogpatchracing.com. Site also
has video of the PHA hill Climb events.
Kurt Eikenberg
'84 Reynard FF
"00 Prince PR01 DSR
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Jim,
Good question. Whenever I think about changing to a Stock class car
the list of "why nots" is extremely long for all the reasons we all
understand.
I have been "absent" since mid 2002 for personal reasons (temporary
health plus job loss) that had nothing to do with CM versus other classes.
However, fresh slicks are on the way and the tow vehicle is being
freshened also. I can hardly wait for the first event!!!
That said, I don't see trips to Nationals or even further away than
the Richmond, VA area (good sites up there!!!).
I autocrossed my daily driver Datsun 260Z in Stock and "sort of
street prepared" my first few years and then my "sort of street
prepared" Lotus Europa. Both were always driven to and from events,
even from the coasts to Texas or Kansas. It is neat to compete,
especially if you win, in a street driven car. Ditto when I changed
to a daily driver 5.0 Mustang. HOWEVER, as we know, stock pales in
comparison to driving a CM car on a decent set of slicks. I must say
the Mustang was a fun tow vehicle for the FF for a year or so :-)
Dick
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| 03-21-2007, 12:20 PM |
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| 04-21-2007, 7:13 PM |
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PCalhoun
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Joined on 08-30-2005
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I share in Jim's frustration at seeing CM entries drop from the peaks we saw in the late 90's. At Cendiv events it was not uncommon for CM & CP battling for the largest entry w/ close to 20 drivers at Peru events. I think a number of factors have contributed to this including changes in peoples personal or professional lives, lack of confidence in the economy, and $3+ per gallon fuel last summer. I have not seen a lot of people leaving for the greener pastures of other classes, exceptions being Saunders/Lumpkin & Washburn.
What we do need to do as a class is promote it to our fellow autocorssers, as the Louisville contingent has done a very good job of this on the local level. No we don't want to get into the great debates, which continually bog down apexspeed, but truly sell the strengths of the class: real racecars, rules stability, afforable tires & maintenance costs, easy to tow, and fully depreciated cars available in all areas of the country at affordable prices. The apexspeed website is another great asset to FF ownership w/ knowledgeable help and a great markekplace to buy or sell. There are simly too many mid 80's to early 90's FF's sitting in garages, which are perfect for auto-x and cost what the depreciation will be on your Solstice in the first year.
What's the downside, well for the younger set no they can't get a bank loan for one. This is a, but a small hick-up, as not all our new particpants need to be 20 somethings. We all see the cars posted for under $10k on apexspeed & e-bay, we need to get our fellow auto-xrs to buy-in that this is a fun, affordable class, w/ top drivers. Building it back up to what it was 6-8 years ago.
Now if they'd only bring Nationals back to concrete so we can really have some fun:)
P. Calhoun
Peter Calhoun Pace American, Inc. Official Trailer of SCCA & MAZDASPEED "What does your trailer company do on weekends?"
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| 04-21-2007, 10:34 PM |
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Dick Rasmussen
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Joined on 12-31-2003
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Raleigh, NC
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A few of things people may not understand about CM cars:
They only weigh about 950 lbs without driver. Most are towed on open trailers by relatively small trucks/suv's/minivan's and even cars (I towed mine thousands of miles behind an 88 5.0 Mustang before getting an overweight/underpowered camper van)
They are EASY to work on and about the only time you need to get "under" the car is to clean dirt off the bottom of the flat floorpan (once every couple of years).
EASY to work on includes engines, transmissions, brakes, etc. You do NOT need to be a race mechanic, fabricator, welder, etc.
Parts and chassis are tough. Rarely break (I've only broken one driveline part in over a decade of serious competition including Pro Solos).
The cars can be National Trophy competitive with basic stuff (i.e. mega bucks shocks not required). Just a decent alignment and fresh slicks. Think "Stock Class" car with lots of suspension and gearing options.
I run an off the shelf race prep'd carb that has NEVER needed a jet change. I run pump gas (i.e. not racing gas).
The mid 80's FF 1600's that are not Club Ford eligible (i.e. are relatively cheap) seem to be the best (fastest) autocross cars. Too new for Club Ford, too slow for Road Racing FF.
People "look" at a formula car a whole lot more than they look at "just another" whatever street car.
At a recent event on sealed asphalt I pulled 1.8 g peak cornering and 1.32 braking per GEEZ.
The "biggest" (pun intended) issue is that FF1600's are generally not for "big people". However Sports 2000's are also CM cars and are a lot roomier.
Dick (CM 85)
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| 04-22-2007, 7:46 AM |
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Andy Hollis
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Joined on 05-28-2003
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My $.02: Its the same problem the P guys are having and the other M classes. Running a car here requires much more in logistics than running a car in S, ST, SP and even SM. You pretty much gotta have a trailer and tow vehicle (though CM doesn't take much to pull it), and then you have a storage issue to solve. Also, you typically have to be a "fixer", not a "take it to the shop" kinda person. That reduces your market also. Working against these things is the ever increasing amount of performance that can be purchased direct from the manufacturer, with a warranty, and street-driveable. CM has not gotten any faster while everything else has. The one big exception is F125, where you can load it all into the back of a pick-up, and go really freakin' fast (assuming you have good ribs to start with), and spend very little. But karts are way different than cars, so you have to get over that issue to play there. So, I think the "other cars getting better" and F125 options are your big draws. Sure, existing competitors are leaving for many other reasons (like life things), but that's true in every class. Its the lack of incoming folks you need to figure out. And I believe that your market is just choosing other options. CM used to be thought of as the "Stock class of Modified", because of the rules constraints. While that's true, its no longer the cheapest way to go really fast, and it still retains all those other logistical issues. For what's its worth... --Andy
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| 04-22-2007, 9:40 AM |
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Dick Rasmussen
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Andy,
Good points. Especially for folks who do not have dedicated autocross/race cars.
Question (not counting F125 since I'm too old to subject my body to a kart) what other class and type of car even approaches CM for simplicity, has relatively easy logistics, and is "really fast"? Even FM is more complex.
On the assumption that part of the autocross market will trailer the "race car" in any class for lots of reasons and that most of those folks have a storage place, I am curious what other classes can approach the low cost, simplicity, and performance of CM. As you have shown and documented, nationally competitive cars in many classes require lots of work and/or $$$.
Finally, for many classes this year's competitive car can become next year's underdog. Not the case in CMod. Time and money spent on the car can pay dividends for many years, even decades.
Dick (CM 85 - hooked on g's)
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| 04-22-2007, 2:55 PM |
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Andy Hollis
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 Dick Rasmussen:Andy,
Good points. Especially for folks who do not have dedicated autocross/race cars.
Question (not counting F125 since I'm too old to subject my body to a kart) what other class and type of car even approaches CM for simplicity, has relatively easy logistics, and is "really fast"? Even FM is more complex.
But you can't ignore F125. Your market potential *has* to include the younger generation or your class will die...literally. And if the younger generation has and likes that option, you lose your replacements for the natural attrition that all classes have. And the perception is that FM is simpler and cheaper than CM. Mybe not actually true, but that's the perception. Especially around the Texas Region where CM used to be very strong, but FM and BM have replaced it. The guys from CM that wanted to go faster went to BM and those newer folksthat would have been drawn to CM went instead to FM.
Dick Rasmussen:
On the assumption that part of the autocross market will trailer the "race car" in any class for lots of reasons and that most of those folks have a storage place, I am curious what other classes can approach the low cost, simplicity, and performance of CM. As you have shown and documented, nationally competitive cars in many classes require lots of work and/or $$$.
Just because you choose to spend money does not mean you have to. I lost to a very inexpesively prepared car in San Diego, and also last year at Nats. And I drive my "race car" on the street. I'd like to see the CHP's reaction to a drive up the PCH in your FF like I did in my Miata for a couple of weeks.  You have be satisfied getting your g-force habit done a minute at a time at events if the car cannot be driven on the street. Dick Rasmussen:
Finally, for many classes this year's competitive car can become next year's underdog. Not the case in CMod. Time and money spent on the car can pay dividends for many years, even decades.
Dick (CM 85 - hooked on g's)
No question that stability is one of the class's biggest draws. Clearly it is not enough to overcome the allure of other classes, though. --Andy
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| 04-23-2007, 7:22 AM |
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Dick Rasmussen
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talon95:
Karts can be run at sprint tracks as well as autox's too, which I think is appealing to a lot of the current F125 competitors.
Dave G.
The current CM Champion (Gary Godula) road races his FF 1600 (of course he is a workaholic ).
Dick (CM 85 autocross car, Mustang GT daily drivers for street G fixes )
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| 04-23-2007, 9:51 AM |
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SpyderVenom
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Just as a small data point. About 4 years ago when I was retiring my CS car, I was really interested and looked into CM. I found that I could not physically fit into the chassis, I tried three. My shoulders are too wide. I was told that there was a "two seat" chassis that I might fit into but there were none in the area that I could test fit.
Rob Leone
Rob Leone '07 Solstice GXP in AS '87 Toyota Corolla in EP ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.
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| 04-23-2007, 10:46 AM |
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Dick Rasmussen
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SpyderVenom:
Just as a small data point. About 4 years ago when I was retiring my CS car, I was really interested and looked into CM. I found that I could not physically fit into the chassis, I tried three. My shoulders are too wide. I was told that there was a "two seat" chassis that I might fit into but there were none in the area that I could test fit.
Rob Leone
Rob,
The "big" CM car is actually a Sports 2000 sports racer. Uses the higher power 2 liter ohc engine and wider wheels/tires. In road racing it is actually faster than FF1600 due to aero I assume. Guy Ankeny won CM with one a few years ago.
Dick
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| 04-23-2007, 9:23 PM |
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TedV
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My experiences so far. Since I'm in the dedicated autocross car kind of crowd.
Fuel costs are less towing the CM than my old FSP/SM VW Scirocco. Enclosed trailer 9mpg no mater what's in it. With open trailer used to be 12-13mpg with VW, now at least 13-14 mpg. Suburban gets 17 empty. Only thing lighter to tow is a F125 or FM. I want to learn and work on a real suspension tho. Knowledge that can transfer to any other car, I'm still on the steep learning curve with it. Since FF spares are few and small, I usually end up hauling other folks tires, parts, rental tequila, etc.. Speaking of that, the rita's were dang good down in S. Ga. Thanks again Andy.
I got my car with a personal loan against savings CD at the bank. Interest rate 2% over the CD rate. With CD rates low it was actually a better rate than buying a street car. I purchased a car eligible for club ford road racing. I'd like to get back on the road course and autocross. One car can do it all, possible competitive autocross and club ford road race, maybe a moving chicane in FF from outboard shock aero drag(hey, I got John Robinson II in FF to contend with in the south east). I can spend to race as my budget allows. The only cars I've been in that interested me on the autocross course have been an S2000 and Lotus Elise. 3 times the cost of the CM car. The violence of an SM Scirocco was a blast but I would like something that could be competitive.
I think the perception problem is most likely the biggest hindrance. I'm not sure how to educate people on the class other than by example. Everybody has a street car in the driveway and is used to wrenching on it or taking it to a shop if they don't wrench so are more comfortable with those. If not for my contacts from road race track side service, Apexspeed, and national tour autocross, I would have no one to answer my formula car questions. There is nobody in east Tn to talk formula cars. I'll let anyone sit in my car to see how it fits because they all think it's an uncomfortable coffin. Most are amazed how comfy it is once you accept you put the car on, but still don't see how you can drive it because it's so different than an upright seated street car. To me, the view of the course seems better since there is no dash, windshield, A pillar, roof etc. to block sight line. I've not had the pleasure of a rain event yet, so jury is still out on that. Rain SUCKED in the old VW.
Ted (buncha race cars, and a VW Jetta TDI, chipped with koni/ground control suspension for the street fix, and giving the folks behind me the munchies for french fries burning bio-diesel.)
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| 04-24-2007, 8:56 PM |
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Jim G
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TedV: what? there is a CM list??
Someone correct me if I'm wrong (I'm doing this from memory), but you can subscribe to the CM list by sending an email to Majordomo@autox.team.net and put subscribe autox-cm in the body of the message.
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| 07-05-2007, 1:29 PM |
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| 07-05-2007, 3:00 PM |
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Surferjer
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As you can see by the varied messages I've posted recently, I'm looking for an exit strategy from SS.
-I really thought a CP Corvair would be fun, but it doesn't look like a competitive solution. Any car I really want to develop probably would be a long shot.
-So then I started looking at GP (and still am) but the thought of investing in a class way down in participation doesn't seem very smart. And it's not like that class will suddenly take off, unless newer, modern cars are added which then, in turn, will drive out the older cars. :(
-So now I've looked into DM, but again the numbers are dwindling. This is all pretty sad. So here's the question for mod classes: If DM dies in a few years, based on pax could they go into FM? 2nd, would CM and DM ever get combined instead? That would be like killing most of DM. ugh.
Based on the slow death many of these classes are dying, perhaps a restructuring of classes would help. Would the SCCA consider combining some of the mod classes into some sort of "bump" classes (ala Pro Solo)? Individual class paxes could be retained, but considering the mod classes together for trophies and running those classes in a handful of bump classes could ensure their long term survival. Any thoughts?
Jer #196 ES #187 SS retired
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| 07-05-2007, 3:24 PM |
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modernbeat
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Surferjer: -So now I've looked into DM, but again the numbers are dwindling. This is all pretty sad. So here's the question for mod classes: If DM dies in a few years, based on pax could they go into FM? 2nd, would CM and DM ever get combined instead? That would be like killing most of DM. ugh.
Although DM has seen a dip, I think DM/CM will see some growth in the next two years. The popularity of the Stalker (Chevy V6 Lotus 7 kit) has become a recruitment tool. Just in my region, and since the 2006 Nats, there are three new DM/CM drivers in two cars and another three cars being completed for next year. Speaking to others across the country reveals more DM/CM entrants are planning to participate in 07 and 08.
SWAG, but I'd think that the most likely scenerio if DM/CM end up not making numbers is that they would be combined and a new displacement to weight equalizer will be created.
Aut tace aut loquere meliora silentio.
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| 07-05-2007, 3:32 PM |
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Surferjer
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modernbeat: SWAG, but I'd think that the most likely scenerio if DM/CM end up not making numbers is that they would be combined and a new displacement to weight equalizer will be created.
That would be reasonable and would ensure the ultimate survival of both sets of cars. I like that idea. And just to note, I'm not saying any class is dying, but when your classes' numbers have steadily fallen, and are perilously close to the magic number of 17, you have to start thinking of these things. I was considering investing in a DM car (wife killed it----for now!) and I sure as h*ll don't want to invest in a race-only car that would be homeless in a few years...other than that a Mod car would be a friggin blast!
Jer #196 ES #187 SS retired
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| 07-05-2007, 9:07 PM |
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