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Andy Hollis:

47CP:

My informal conclusion is that there are very few people fueling in grid, and I have never seen more than a 5 gallon can of fuel in grid.  So, at worst, someone could be running 40#'s light and fueling before their last run. 

Interesting that this number is in the same ballpark at those being tossed around above as the difference in ideal body weights for various heights in the discussion on weighing with driver.

--Andy

One hundred pounds difference between drivers is not uncommon. The discussion about power-to-weight ratio neglects the bigger concern about uneven handling from a larger driver on one side of the car....not to mention the same g-forces acting much differently on the larger driver. Maybe he is strapped in, but his larger weight at 1.2 lateral g's is still pressing sideways against the seat and it is attached to the floor and frame.

When I was 25 and graduated from college, I was in good shape and weighed around 240. At 35 flying in the Sinai, I was in the best shape of my life, doing aerobics, push-ups all day long, and able to run 5 miles in 40 minutes.....and weighed about 240 lbs. At 51, and not in good shape (but not grossly fat), I'm at 255 lbs, but it would take more than an act of Congress, better knees, and non-stop exercise to get to 240....remember, we gain 10 lbs per decade on average, and your metabolism slows.

jsi:

As for the "ideal" body weight differences, well... they are just that and in the real world, the differences are much greater than that. Yes, i take note of Andy's points about physical conditioning and all, and i'm the first person to admit that i sure need to lose a "few" lbs (i'm 6'1" and 250lbs as of this writing). But, and with due respect, the last time i checked, this club was called the Sports Car Club of America, not the Sports Car and Fitness club of America, Solo2 was about driver skill and car preparation skills (and fun, friends and maybe some beer!) and not about physical conditioning.

You know, I was giving this some more thought and here's what I came up with:

1) Why do we weigh cars in P, SM & M?  We do so as a means to equalize car types and as an ultimate limit on the value of .  With all of the modifications that exist in these classes, more cars can theoretically be competitive since advantages in the stock form can be overridden through allowed mods.  In the end, simple weight vs displacement works pretty well to balance out the cars.

2) In Stock, ST and SP, we don't weigh cars at all.  Since the number of mods allowed is small, the inherent pros and cons of the stock form are evaluated and cars are placed accordingly.  That's also why we have more Stock classes than any other, to accomodate those differences that cannot be fixed by mods.

3) Why does M weigh with driver.  Well, until recently, it was just the GCR-based classes that weighed with driver.  Since Solo did not control those rules, they followed whatever the club racing classes did.  That also allowed cars to be dual-purpose without modification.  DM/EM switched recently as part of a package of updates.  But it was a very recent phenomenon (you can guess how I voted on that one).

4) P is one of Solo's original three categories (along with S & M).  It has *never* weighed with driver.  People haven't suddenly gotten heavier (and lighter).  Have we been doing it "wrong" all these years?

Bottom-line for me, is I go back to #1 above.  We weigh cars to equalize *car* performance and take car choice out of the equation.  We don't equalize "car/driver" combos.  That is essentially what you are asking for.  It has worked well for some 30 years.  What has changed now?  And if its "right" to equalize car/driver combos, we need to do it in S, SP, and ST also.  Any good idea should be universally applied.  Or should P be the "heavy guy's" category?

--Andy

PS: I'm playing Devil's Advocate on this one because these are the questions you are going to need to have solid answers on to get your view heard by the rulesmakers.  I'm just one guy with one opinion, so don't take my view as gospel or even official.

Because of the way the prepared rules are written I believe that they have the poential to be the most equally matched cars. More so than any other class. That is why I think it is important to weigh the cars with the driver. You can engineer "platform problems"a particular car has out of the equation. Since we use weight to "equalize" the cars, and we consider 1 pound under weight to be an illegal car, than it is rediculous to allow a car driver combo to compete at a delta of 40-50 lbs IMO. To use my old class FP as an example, I would guess that JT and Tom Holt are at least that far apart, and I don't  consider Tom to be out of shape or John to be anorexic.

Street Prepared is a totally different animal. The rules are so restricted compared to Prepared that you have to choose the best platform to compete with. The delta between platform weights in ASP is incredible. a Lotus weighs what, 1700 lbs ? A Viper weighs 3200 lbs. so it comes down to a choice as to what you want to weigh. Tom or I had no choice.

Chris

CHRISFP78:

That is why I think it is important to weigh the cars with the driver. You can engineer "platform problems"a particular car has out of the equation. Since we use weight to "equalize" the cars, and we consider 1 pound under weight to be an illegal car, than it is rediculous to allow a car driver combo to compete at a delta of 40-50 lbs IMO.

If you feel that strongly, Chris, why did you not campaign to have this changed during your tour of duty in Prepared?  Its a simple letter to write.  You've been around this game a long time, so you know the drill.  I am surprised.

--Andy

Andy Hollis:

1) Why do we weigh cars in P, SM & M?  We do so as a means to equalize car types and as an ultimate limit on the value of .  With all of the modifications that exist in these classes, more cars can theoretically be competitive since advantages in the stock form can be overridden through allowed mods.  In the end, simple weight vs displacement works pretty well to balance out the cars.

Exactly. And this is a formula that has worked particularly well over the years. But again, take for example, two identically prepared cars at 1500lbs, one with a 250lbs driver, the other with a 150lbs driver. So in reality the cars would be competing at 1750# and 1650#  respectively. That's a 6% penalty! So that equlization has just been thrown out the window. Why should one car/driver combo be competing at a greater weight?

Andy Hollis:

3) Why does M weigh with driver.  Well, until recently, it was just the GCR-based classes that weighed with driver.  Since Solo did not control those rules, they followed whatever the club racing classes did.  That also allowed cars to be dual-purpose without modification.  DM/EM switched recently as part of a package of updates.  But it was a very recent phenomenon (you can guess how I voted on that one).

Well, i guess the people in M finally decided that it was the right and logical thing to do?

Andy Hollis:

4) P is one of Solo's original three categories (along with S & M).  It has *never* weighed with driver.  People haven't suddenly gotten heavier (and lighter).  Have we been doing it "wrong" all these years?

Bottom-line for me, is I go back to #1 above.  We weigh cars to equalize *car* performance and take car choice out of the equation.  We don't equalize "car/driver" combos.  That is essentially what you are asking for.  It has worked well for some 30 years.  What has changed now?  And if its "right" to equalize car/driver combos, we need to do it in S, SP, and ST also.  Any good idea should be universally applied.  Or should P be the "heavy guy's" category?

Ok, i'm obviously the "new" guy here, and feel that i'm sorta stirring the sh!t here but here goes... Just because something has been done for 30 years, doesnt make it right, and boy-oh-boy are there plenty of historical examples of this outside of Solo as we unfortunately know all too well ;). I'm still waiting for someone to come up with one solid technical reason for weighing cars only, other than event logistical issues, historical reasons or fear of cheating involving leaded seat inserts and underwear... ;) I think it almost comes down to not enough people asking for it. Hell, i was asking myself the same question when i was in SM. But then i allways sorta selfeshly/ignorantly assumed: Bah, eventually they'll change it, someone else is gonna write eventually, my car is nowhere near the minimum weight anyway and wonder if it'll ever get there, so on... But now i figured it was about time to ask, at least on here for now.

As far as applying it to Stock, SP, ST etc.? Impossible. The classification system is not cc/weight based and mods not open enough to equal out the diff cars shortcomings out anyway. You would have to specify a minimum weight for every single car down to each trim level. Well, it is possible... Nah...

:)

I was more concerned with the extra 162 lbs they put on my car last year after winning 2 in a row. Had to get out of that class before the SEB "rewarded" me for winning again.

 

Chris

Andy,

There are many things about Prepared that have been done a certain way for the last thirty years that we have recently abandoned.  I believe you were one of many people who welcomed the change.  This is the modern era of Prepared and we have all worked very hard to question why things were the way they were…. and this is another prime example.

 

Historically, Prepared was an extension of the GCRs Production Category.  Production, as far as I know, has always weighed with drivers…. So in my opinion, Prepared has been wrong all along.

 

Look at any other form of racing where car preparation and allowances are similar to that of Prepared.  They all weight with drivers.  I challenge anybody to find an automotive based series with car preparation allowances similar to the Prepared Category that allows for the driver to create such an imbalance in as raced weight.

 

Car weights should be as raced… that includes the driver    

---

EP 82 - 1987 Toyota Corolla GTS
RMDiv. SEB

Andy Hollis:

And if its "right" to equalize car/driver combos, we need to do it in S, SP, and ST also.  Any good idea should be universally applied.  Or should P be the "heavy guy's" category?

My answer to this would be the effect of driver weight relative to total.  It is logical to assume that the driver weight variance will result in a greater net effect in a lighter car.  There are light Stock, ST, and SP classes and heavy P classes, but for the most part stock, ST, and SP cars (at least the most competitive ones) are heavier than P cars.  M cars are lighter yet, and it makes sense that they would be the first converts to a car + driver weight system.  A 60# difference in driver weight will affect overall weight variance more in a 1800# car than a 2800# car.  And stock cars don't appear to be getting lighter.

I'm a heavy, and if I was inclined to run SS I would probably run a 'vette instead of an Elise.  I'm planning to run DP in a Miata, and am plaaning on running the 1.8 vs. the 1.6 for the same reason.

Add to this that P classes can drastically affect weight by allowed mods, and there really aren't any legal ways to drastically affect stock class weight.

Good point, but I think it is easily explained.

---

Ed Locke
2006 CR-SCCA XP Champion (Hey! I showed up.)
#248 SM/XP/DP/GS/BS/etc.
At Track Graphics (http://www.attrackgraphics.com)
Skull Motorsports (http://www.skullmotorsports.com)

Howdy,

jsi:

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with one solid technical reason for weighing cars only, other than event logistical issues, historical reasons or fear of cheating involving leaded seat inserts and underwear... ;)

The primary reason, in my mind, that we don't deal with weighing with driver is that the extra event logistical issues have outweighed the benefit.  If you're going to discount logistical issues out of hand, then you certainly won't find a strong reason against weighing with driver, making the assumption that the goal is to equalize driver/car combos.

Perhaps that needs to change, perhaps not.  But please don't discount event logistics.  Those of us that have organized the events and those of us that have to live with the logistics that someone comes up with would greatly appreciate it.

I've never been a fan of weighing with driver because I felt the hassle involved wasn't worth the effort.  However, if we _do_ decide to weigh with driver I can live with it.  If it goes that way, I'd very much prefer however that we do it in the same manner mod does (i.e. ballast can be changed during the heat to match the driver).  I don't want to have to wonder if someone's seat insert is really heavy or any of that other garbage.

Personally though, I think we've got bigger fish to fry.  There are folks running Prepared that are _way_ better mechanics/tuners/fabricators than others.  There are also some that have way more money than others.  Perhaps we should find a way to equalize those issues?  I bet they contribute a lot more to performance on an autox course than an extra 100 lbs does.

Mark

Howdy,

epcrx:

Look at any other form of racing where car preparation and allowances are similar to that of Prepared.  They all weight with drivers.  I challenge anybody to find an automotive based series with car preparation allowances similar to the Prepared Category that allows for the driver to create such an imbalance in as raced weight.

 

Car weights should be as raced… that includes the driver    

MotoGP (the "F1" of motorcycle roadracing) doesn't weigh with rider and I don't believe any of the other major motorcycle roadracing series I'm familier with do either.

That's at least one.  And there the rider is on the order of 1/4 the weight of the machine/rider package.

Of course, maybe that's why fat people race cars.

:-)

Mark

There are folks running Prepared that are _way_ better mechanics/tuners/fabricators than others.  There are also some that have way more money than others.  Perhaps we should find a way to equalize those issues? 

What, are you advocating some type of autocross communism where the best are drug down to the level of the rest?

:)

DaveW

marka:

Howdy,

epcrx:

I challenge anybody to find an automotive based series with car preparation allowances similar to the Prepared Category that allows for the driver to create such an imbalance in as raced weight.

 

Car weights should be as raced… that includes the driver    

MotoGP (the "F1" of motorcycle roadracing) doesn't weigh with rider and I don't believe any of the other major motorcycle roadracing series I'm familier with do either.

Mark,

That is why I challenged anybody to "find an automotive based series".  Moto GP in my mind is not automotive based.  Lets not drag the 115#  jockeys into this :-)  Those guys get paid a lot of money to be within a few pounds of their competition.  Haven't seen a 225#  Moto GP rider yet... not to mention winning racers. 

-Chris 

---

EP 82 - 1987 Toyota Corolla GTS
RMDiv. SEB

marka:

But please don't discount event logistics.  Those of us that have organized the events and those of us that have to live with the logistics that someone comes up with would greatly appreciate it.

Mark, I'm not dicounting logistics at all. The point is to establish the technical reason for or against the rule. But i havent heard that logistics was an issue for Mod. Regardless, i wont say anything more on the logistics side of until i see it myself at the Nationals.

marka:

There are folks running Prepared that are _way_ better mechanics/tuners/fabricators than others.  There are also some that have way more money than others.  Perhaps we should find a way to equalize those issues?  I bet they contribute a lot more to performance on an autox course than an extra 100 lbs does.

No, there is no need to equalize those. Because those are skills that are part of the sport as much driving skill is. Money, well... that's another reality and integral of racing. Maybe we should start Spec classes. Oh no wait, we already have a few of those...;) 

Howdy,

epcrx:

Mark,

That is why I challenged anybody to "find an automotive based series".  Moto GP in my mind is not automotive based.  Lets not drag the 115#  jockeys into this :-)  Those guys get paid a lot of money to be within a few pounds of their competition.  Haven't seen a 225#  Moto GP rider yet... not to mention winning racers. 

-Chris 

As a direct example, Nicky Hayden gives up about 50 lbs to his (freak of genetics) teammate Pedroza.  Hayden is around 150, Pedroza is around 100.

50 lbs.

On a bike where the minimum weight is 319 lbs.

I think you low powered Prepared folks don't have much to *** about in comparison.

Mark

Howdy,

jsi:

marka:

There are folks running Prepared that are _way_ better mechanics/tuners/fabricators than others.  There are also some that have way more money than others.  Perhaps we should find a way to equalize those issues?  I bet they contribute a lot more to performance on an autox course than an extra 100 lbs does.

No, there is no need to equalize those. Because those are skills that are part of the sport as much driving skill is. Money, well... that's another reality and integral of racing. Maybe we should start Spec classes. Oh no wait, we already have a few of those...;) 

My point is, we're all different.  We all have strengths and weaknesses.  Why is body mass so much more important than fabrication ability or money or tuning or driving talent or a supportive spouse or anything else that makes us different?  I think you'll find that _all_ of those impact performance more than driver weight differences do.

Like I said, when I get back to Prepared I'll go with whatever, its not the end of the world.  But personally, I just don't see this as the big gigantic deal that some folks seem to.  And I'm over the "standard" 180 lb number that everyone tosses around...

Mark

And the world will never know who the better rider is because the results will always be skewed by the weight difference.  From what I've seen on Speed, both riders do very well... but is Padroza doing well only because of his 100 build?   We may  never know.  I bet if Moto GP added 50 lbs to DP's bike, he'd fall back a bit.

OK, enough bike talk... back to cars.

-Chris

---

EP 82 - 1987 Toyota Corolla GTS
RMDiv. SEB

Howdy,

epcrx:

And the world will never know who the better rider is because the results will always be skewed by the weight difference.  From what I've seen on Speed, both riders do very well... but is Padroza doing well only because of his 100 build?   We may  never know.  I bet if Moto GP added 50 lbs to DP's bike, he'd fall back a bit.

And how many times has Nicky kicked some Pedroza butt because Pedroza didn't have the stamina or whatever to go the distance?

We'll probably never know.  But it seems to me if its good enough for motogp, its good enough for a bunch of parking lot duffers like us.  They have just _a little_ more tied up in the results... If rider weight was wildly skewing things, I expect you'd at least _hear_ about it.

OK, enough bike talk... back to cars.

-Chris

Nah, MotoGP is the coolest and nobody's gonna change their minds anyway... :-)  MotoGP makes F1 and NASCAR and all the rest look like commuters.  :-)

Mark