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jorober5:

I agree with this sentiment to a certain extent, but there are some folks who are inherently at an advantage in the weight department.  A guy who is 5'3' is going to have a serious weight advantage over a guy who is 6'6", even if both are in top notch physical condition.

Agreed.  But you are using extremes to make the point.

Every time I have seen this proposed it has never been from someone in "top physical condition", nor are they 6'6", nor has it been in a class where there is someone competing that is 5'3".

--Andy

PS: There is such a thing as too thin, too.  Anorexics don't usually have good stamina and mental processes.  Have a look at the recent Sports Car article on physical conditioning for racing.  I've had this discussion with a certain already-thin competitor that insists on a crash weight-loss program before Nats each year.  IMO, it negatively affects driver performance.

PPS: I served on the PC on a protest at a divisional wherein a 2-driver mod car was accused of running underweight with one of the drivers.  It was difficult to prove on either side of the issue whether or not the lighter driver competed with his "ballast cushion" in place in the car.  And this was a well-known team, not some regional pair.

Andy Hollis:

jorober5:

I agree with this sentiment to a certain extent, but there are some folks who are inherently at an advantage in the weight department.  A guy who is 5'3' is going to have a serious weight advantage over a guy who is 6'6", even if both are in top notch physical condition.

Agreed.  But you are using extremes to make the point.

Every time I have seen this proposed it has never been from someone in "top physical condition", nor are they 6'6", nor has it been in a class where there is someone competing that is 5'3".

Extremes need to be noted to make the point

According to your Grassroots article "For small, low-power cars our rule of thumb is that a 150 lb passenger slows us down by about .5 second. So each 30 lbs is about a tenth pickup."  That being said, I think a 30 lb variance could typical between two equally fit athletes with different body types.  Multiply that tenth by the two days at nationals, and you've got a two tenth margin that many classes are won or lost by.

Andy Hollis:

PS: There is such a thing as too thin, too.  Anorexics don't usually have good stamina and mental processes. 

Agree somewhat.  Anorexics are often high functioning and high achieving in the university environment, though.

Andy Hollis:

PPS: I served on the PC on a protest at a divisional wherein a 2-driver mod car was accused of running underweight with one of the drivers.  It was difficult to prove on either side of the issue whether or not the lighter driver competed with his "ballast cushion" in place in the car.  And this was a well-known team, not some regional pair.

You've got me on rules design here, but it seems that the minimum could be without ANY removable types of ballast.  Is that how it is in Mod?

Jonathan

jorober5:

According to your Grassroots article "For small, low-power cars our rule of thumb is that a 150 lb passenger slows us down by about .5 second. So each 30 lbs is about a tenth pickup."  That being said, I think a 30 lb variance could typical between two equally fit athletes with different body types.  Multiply that tenth by the two days at nationals, and you've got a two tenth margin that many classes are won or lost by.

I'll agree on your number.  I think 30 lbs diff for body type is about right, all other things being equal.  But I disagree on your use of my ST example to show the value of said weight in the Prepared category.

I would not exactly call any P car "underpowered" relative to its weight.  The initial poster is in an EP Civic (by his avatar pic).  Huge difference between that and something like an STS2 Miata or STS Civic.  You've see JT run the Lombardo car.  That thing scoots in a straight line! (Not bad in a turn, either).  The difference is likely to be more like half of what you'd see in a small S or ST car, which is what my example was discussing. I contend the value is less than a tenth over two days, and its not even on the radar in XP, BP, CP and FP.

jorober5:

You've got me on rules design here, but it seems that the minimum could be without ANY removable types of ballast.  Is that how it is in Mod?

Many mod folks combine the ballast requirements with allowed seat configuration mods.  Insertion of the appropriate "seat filler" for each driver accomplishes two tasks at once.  And if you try and legislate it to the lighter driver (i.e. no car mods) as suggested earlier in the thread, the lighter driver needs only to wear the weight on his person.

Now, I'm not suggesting that all the two-driver mod guys are cheating.  Just that "irregularities" happen more often than you might think.  Unless you are plugged into that loop, you don't hear about this stuff.

I could tell even more stories of impound weighing irregularities that had nothing to do with 2-drivers...at Nats even.  But that's another thread...

--Andy

I weigh 1.5 Disimos!!!!


....sorry...wrong forum...

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Tracy Ramsey
Team Blenderblaster
2000 MR2 DP Spyder

Andy Hollis:

...you are using extremes to make the point.

Every time I have seen this proposed it has never been from someone in "top physical condition", nor are they 6'6", nor has it been in a class where there is someone competing that is 5'3".

Andy,

To reduce the extremes a bit...
I'm 6'3" and weighed in today at 252#.  I work out regularly and am not in horrible shape.  I could lose weight, but my minimum healthy weight is about 220#-225#.  (I recently was evaluated at 19% body fat.)  I plan on running in DP next year.  (I'm not a nationally competitive driver, but let's ignore that for the moment.)

I think it is likely that there will be competitors out there in the 180# range, who could also get down to 160# with about the same effort it would take me to get to 220#.  Under the current rules they will have about 60# of potential advantage.  Obviously there are drivers who could enter in at 110#-120#.   (Small female types should hit this I would think, Danica Patrick is about 100 lb. as I recall.)

Is this 60# enough to keep me from winning?  Maybe.  If I was 160# would I win?  Probably not (this is where the driving comes into play!)  But, with all of the discussion about weight limits, it sure seems like 60# is significant.  (It equates to about 63 cc of displacement by the DP rules, and if we figure you can get about 0.1 whp/cc this would be about 6 1/2 whp, or about 3-4% more power.  That seems significant.)  This doubles of course with the 100 lb to 220 lb scenario, although this is less likely to actually happen.

This is countered with it would be difficult to control in impound based on removable seat pads.  This doesn't make sense to me, that it is assumed that 60# doesn't matter, but the difference in the weight of a seat pad does.  Weight in the 50-70 lb range either matters or it doesn't.

Sounds to me like it would be logical to change to weight with driver.

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Ed Locke
2006 CR-SCCA XP Champion (Hey! I showed up.)
#248 SM/XP/DP/GS/BS/etc.
At Track Graphics (http://www.attrackgraphics.com)
Skull Motorsports (http://www.skullmotorsports.com)

edlocke:

[

This is countered with it would be difficult to control in impound based on removable seat pads.  This doesn't make sense to me, that it is assumed that 60# doesn't matter, but the difference in the weight of a seat pad does.  Weight in the 50-70 lb range either matters or it doesn't.

You are misquoting me.  I was using a figure of 30 lbs and the "seat pads" I was talking about are full of lead (easy way to alter both driver position and ballast in one move).  Don't know if your figure is better than mine (what is "typical"), but research could be done.

Make your case, get your facts together and write a letter.  The SEB usually gets one of these a year.  Doesn't seem like many people care to change things.  And looking at the results from national events, it also doesn't look like it is impacting anything empirically.  I don't see the class winners from DP and EP as small, thin guys.  Without getting personal, guys like Bollinger, Dorsey and Todd-zilla (his preferred moniker) are not exactly pencil-necks.

But I totally understand where you are coming from.

--Andy

Andy Hollis:

You are misquoting me. 

Sorry!  Was not my intent.

Andy Hollis:

Make your case, get your facts together and write a letter.  The SEB usually gets one of these a year.  Doesn't seem like many people care to change things. 

OK, I didn't start this, and I'm not personally likely to benefit from it, but if the others here who supported this want to write letters, I'll write one too since I think this is worthwhile.  I can make sure there is more than one this year.


Does anyone want to champion this? 

BTW, Todd might not be light from your perspective, but I would call him a "small, thin guy."
(What have I done?  I quiver as I wait for Todd's response!)

Don't know the others well enough to comment.

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Ed Locke
2006 CR-SCCA XP Champion (Hey! I showed up.)
#248 SM/XP/DP/GS/BS/etc.
At Track Graphics (http://www.attrackgraphics.com)
Skull Motorsports (http://www.skullmotorsports.com)

edlocke:

Does anyone want to champion this? 

I'll do it. But we got to at least settle on what we would ask for.

1. Minimum weights with drivers obviously
2. Allow ballast adjustments in grid or not?
3. When are cars weighed after competition? Point 2 above will greatly affect this one.

Plus something else to think about, as this is something the PAC will have to consider:

-How do we change the minimum weight formulas? Obviously there would have to be an increase across the board. Do we take the current formula and add say, 180lbs? Or do we adjust weight/cc formulas, for example in EP go to 1.1 lbs/cc instead of 1.0 lbs/cc? I wouldnt really like that as it would have the effect of penalizing higher displacement engines with more weight thatn the old system.

I am 5'9" #130lbs and have asthma; all my life I have been disadvantaged in almost every sport. Football, Basketball, Track..etc. etc. But I am certainly built for racing! You find physical advantages and disadvantages in every sport, I think a "driver" is part physical and mental. If you regulate weight you might as well have a testostrone limit for roadracing, since testostrone gifted drivers are going to be more aggressive. Or a shoe size equilizer because smaller feet would be easier for foot work. The only way to make it truly fair would be to have 1000 tv's and have everyone play GT4 for nationals(which I am not opposed to if it gets me a jacket)...

Roy

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Highest Quality In-Car Digital Video Systems, Bullet Cameras and Accessories www.datatoys.com

Howdy,

jsi:

2. Allow ballast adjustments in grid or not?
2. Allow ballast adjustments in grid or not?

If you decide to try and stop this, you might as well start working on the problems of identifying (in the rules) the difference between a seat insert and ballast, as well as driver gear and ballast...

I.e. my "seat insert" would just happen to weigh the difference between the driver weights.  :-)

-How do we change the minimum weight formulas? Obviously there would have to be an increase across the board. Do we take the current formula and add say, 180lbs? Or do we adjust weight/cc formulas, for example in EP go to 1.1 lbs/cc instead of 1.0 lbs/cc? I wouldnt really like that as it would have the effect of penalizing higher displacement engines with more weight thatn the old system.

Historically this has been done with a linear adder of some "generic body weight" like 180 lbs.  I.e. your first choice.

Mark

marka:

Howdy,

jsi:

2. Allow ballast adjustments in grid or not?

2. Allow ballast adjustments in grid or not?

If you decide to try and stop this, you might as well start working on the problems of identifying (in the rules) the difference between a seat insert and ballast, as well as driver gear and ballast...

I.e. my "seat insert" would just happen to weigh the difference between the driver weights.  :-)

-How do we change the minimum weight formulas? Obviously there would
have to be an increase across the board. Do we take the current formula
and add say, 180lbs? Or do we adjust weight/cc formulas, for example in
EP go to 1.1 lbs/cc instead of 1.0 lbs/cc? I wouldnt really like that
as it would have the effect of penalizing higher displacement engines
with more weight thatn the old system.

Historically this has been done with a linear adder of some "generic body weight" like 180 lbs.  I.e. your first choice.

Mark

To me, the solution would be that the car is weighed after all runs are made, once with each driver, and any parts removed from the car at any time in the grid will be removed for weighing - including ballast or seat inserts. Both drivers must make minimum required weight.

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Aut tace aut loquere meliora silentio.

Howdy,

modernbeat:

To me, the solution would be that the car is weighed after all runs are made, once with each driver, and any parts removed from the car at any time in the grid will be removed for weighing - including ballast or seat inserts. Both drivers must make minimum required weight.

Perhaps.

What's the clothing weight limit though?  Whose job was it to pay attention to whether or not a seat insert was removed or something else was happening?

Not to mention... We just doubled the # of cars that need to weigh in impound.  Granted, you would just swap the drivers, but its still extra work.

And we're doing all this to account for a 50 lb difference?  I lose more time that that sneezing.  :-)

Mark

(If we're going to fix stuff, the one I'd like to fix first is to disallow refueling in grid.  Safer, and doesn't let someone run a couple hundred lbs lighter on their first two runs.)

marka:

(If we're going to fix stuff, the one I'd like to fix first is to disallow refueling in grid.  Safer, and doesn't let someone run a couple hundred lbs lighter on their first two runs.)

I've wondered about that - in classes that get weighed, what's to ensure that a car doesn't run light the first couple of runs and then "refuel" with extra fuel to make weight before their final run?  And if someone did do it, how would you protest that?  Under the weight clause with a video camera for evidence??    (If so, does the offending car take another run to see how much fuel is actually consumed per run??)  Or do you protest using the sportsmanship clause?

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177 STX

(If we're going to fix stuff, the one I'd like to fix first is to disallow refueling in grid.  Safer, and doesn't let someone run a couple hundred lbs lighter on their first two runs.)

Mark,

I am a person who fuels in grid at almost every event.  I only put a 3.5 gal cell in my car when I built it and we burn 5/8-3/4 gal per run average.  If I had to do it over again, I would put a 5 or 6 gallon unit in, but the one I have works fine.  I'll probably replace it with a bigger one when this one life's out and the foam starts breaking up.

I tend to pay attention to others fueling in grid too, for various reasons I have chronicled on the SSS list.

My informal conclusion is that there are very few people fueling in grid, and I have never seen more than a 5 gallon can of fuel in grid.  So, at worst, someone could be running 40#'s light and fueling before their last run. 

But, certainly no one is running a "couple hundred" pounds light and correcting it with fuel load.  Where would they store the fuel?  In a tanker truck?  We are talking 20-30 gallons of fuel needed in grid.

Not to mention, a few hundred pounds would terribly upset the balance of the car, even in a CP car that weighs 3000#.  I can't imagine what even 100# would do in a CRX or Sprite weighing 1500#.

The final problem with a large cell running with only a few gallons is starvation.  

So, I respectfully submit that you are tilting at the wrong windmill here.  While the current situation would leave a rulebook loophole, in practice I can't see how it is an issue.

DaveW

Howdy,

47CP:

But, certainly no one is running a "couple hundred" pounds light and correcting it with fuel load.  Where would they store the fuel?  In a tanker truck?  We are talking 20-30 gallons of fuel needed in grid.

Not to mention, a few hundred pounds would terribly upset the balance of the car, even in a CP car that weighs 3000#.  I can't imagine what even 100# would do in a CRX or Sprite weighing 1500#.

The final problem with a large cell running with only a few gallons is starvation.  

(I agree this isn't a huge issue, but I find it a bigger one that weighing with driver...)

First, you balance the car to the lighter weight.  With this plan, you're already assuming you're tossing the last run.

Second, you deal with fuel starvation with a surge tank, just like the SP boys used to.  Or you shape the tank differently, or any number of other possible solutions.

And yeah, you'd need 30 gallons of fuel in grid.  No rule prevents that, right?

I'd expect a protest if someone saw me doing this, make no mistake.  And I give it about a 50/50 chance of loosing the protest, given the cloudiness of how much gas I actually put in the car, yada, yada.  You'd also (I hope) need to show that I was doing something wrong in comparison to someone who only put in three gallons.

Ultimately though, it seems like its easily fixed, along with the attendant safety concerns of refueling in grid in a limited time span, with a bunch of distracted/rushing folks all around you.  I do realize that folks with _very_ small fuel cells would need to replace that cell.  That sucks, I agree, but I still feel its something that should be fixed.

Or at least that it should be fixed prior to worrying about weighing w/driver in Prepared... :-)

Mark

47CP:

My informal conclusion is that there are very few people fueling in grid, and I have never seen more than a 5 gallon can of fuel in grid.  So, at worst, someone could be running 40#'s light and fueling before their last run. 

Interesting that this number is in the same ballpark at those being tossed around above as the difference in ideal body weights for various heights in the discussion on weighing with driver.

--Andy

I think we need to stop assuming that just every other solo2 racer is cheating scumbag waiting for an opportunity to exploit the tinniest loophole. Call me naive or whatever, but i think that the vast majority of Solo2 racers, especially national caliber, are good honest folks and go by the letter of the rules. For the small minority that are not, there are "intent and spirit" of the rules and "sportsmanship" clauses. At least that's the approach/philosophy i allways took for rule making for the past 5 years serving on various Canadian national and regional rules/technical comitees.

For the re-fueling in grid, i think what first needs to be determined is what is the problem we are trying to fix? Is it blatant cheating with people showing up with 30gal refueling cells in grid and running uber-light on 2/3 runs? Or is it the safety aspect of re-fueling in grid? IMO, the former is a non-issue and the safety aspect is a bigger issue, as was mentioned, with distracted people, red-hot exhaust manifolds on open wheelers etc... Now, you can deal with that several ways. Ban re-fueling in grid is the easy obvious solution, that would also have the benefit of eliminating the fear of "cheating". As an alternative, how about having a corded-off designated re-fueling area near grid? Depending where it would be placed, it could also have the effect of putting people with their 30-gals fuel tankers out in the open.

Now for the minimum weights with drivers, all that was really suggested is that the rules be brought in-line with the rest of the club's club/pro racing and even Solo2 practices. AFAIK, Solo2 Prepared and Street Modified are the only classes implementing minimum weights without drivers. Doing this would simply be the logical thing to do.

As for the "ideal" body weight differences, well... they are just that and in the real world, the differences are much greater than that. Yes, i take note of Andy's points about physical conditioning and all, and i'm the first person to admit that i sure need to lose a "few" lbs (i'm 6'1" and 250lbs as of this writing). But, and with due respect, the last time i checked, this club was called the Sports Car Club of America, not the Sports Car and Fitness club of America, Solo2 was about driver skill and car preparation skills (and fun, friends and maybe some beer!) and not about physical conditioning.

Thanks for reading.

jsi:

Now for the minimum weights with drivers, all that was really suggested is that the rules be brought in-line with the rest of the club's club/pro racing and even Solo2 practices. AFAIK, Solo2 Prepared and Street Modified are the only classes implementing minimum weights without drivers. Doing this would simply be the logical thing to do.

To put it another way, there are three categories in Solo that weigh cars; SM, Prepared, and Mod.  And Mod is the only one that weighs with driver. 

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Steve Hudson
DP Miata

jsi:

I think we need to stop assuming that just every other solo2 racer is cheating scumbag waiting for an opportunity to exploit the tinniest loophole.

Who said that?  You are exagerating wildly.

jsi:

Call me naive or whatever, but i think that the vast majority of Solo2 racers, especially national caliber, are good honest folks and go by the letter of the rules. For the small minority that are not, there are "intent and spirit" of the rules and "sportsmanship" clauses. At least that's the approach/philosophy i allways took for rule making for the past 5 years serving on various Canadian national and regional rules/technical comitees.

I agree with your first sentence.  So then why even weigh everyone's cars at all?  If I think your car is underweight, I can just protest you for being "unsportsmanlike".  Wouldn't that be a lot easier?

IMO, good rules and procedures are there to protect the good honest folks from those who consider "having a little edge" as "just part of racing".  Finding a balance point between that goal and reducing inconvenience to the honest majority is the tricky part upon which many will disagree.

--Andy

stevemhudson:

To put it another way, there are three categories in Solo that weigh cars; SM, Prepared, and Mod.  And Mod is the only one that weighs with driver. 

Steve, those Kart boys are going to hunt you down for not including them as a real category..... four categories in Solo weigh with drivers.... and FWIW,  a little birdy tells me the SMAC tried to propose weighing with driver for 2007 and beyond.

-Chris 

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EP 82 - 1987 Toyota Corolla GTS
RMDiv. SEB