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I was expecting the forums to virtually explode with the typical Monday morning second guessing, safety stewarding, chief stewarding, finger pointing, blaming, character assassination, rampant speculation and name calling but this has gotten completely out of hand.   I was the Chief of Protest at the Ft. Myers National Tour and to set the record straight I believe it now necessary to make some kind of statement regarding the facts of the protest filed by Robert Carpenter.   This is not an official response from the SCCA or the SEB.  I have no intention of debating, in any of these forums, the Protest Committee’s decision or its merit.  The PC’s decision stands on its own and is wholly supported by the facts.   Nor will I respond to those who find it necessary to attack and defame the Protest Committee.  Such statements say more about the author’s character than the character of those they are intended to assail.   The purpose here is to provide the solo community with information as to why the PC took the action it did.

 

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Robert Carpenter was one of several people who approached me Sunday morning expressing concern regarding the course.    I know Robert well and know that he would much prefer for the competition to be settled on the course not in the protest shed.   Robert raised the issue of a protest and I advised him that filing a protest would guarantee the course issue be dealt with.   Robert thought it through and filed the protest after he drove in heat one.  He was VERY surprised when I later informed him that the PC had upheld his protest and that Sunday’s times were thrown out.  He even stated that he never considered that the protest would be upheld, let alone that the results would be affected.  In fact, he told me that he “had not intended for this to affect the results and mess up anyone’s event”.   I commend Robert for having the guts to file the protest.  I have heard a lot of whining over the years but seldom does anyone ever step up and take the heat for actually taking action.

 

Once a protest is filed, the Protest Committee must deal with it.  The committee cannot simply sit around and whine and argue on various forums, they must make a decision and that decision carries with it the responsibility of its effect.   It would have been easy for the PC to dismiss the protest or pass the buck.   However, the protest committee has the responsibility of ensuring the integrity of the event and protecting the interest of the competitors at the event and the membership as a whole.   This is a big responsibility and one that the PC takes very seriously.  Nor is it an easy job and one that few people will take on because of the potential for controversy.   That the members of the Ft. Myers National Tour Protest Committee took on this issue knowing their decision would result in extensive armchair quarterbacking is to be commended.

 

On the issue of the ruling:  The protest committee must first determine legality.  The course was protested under 2.1.A.    The protest committee found the course was in excess of 2.1.A in respect to this sentence: “Turns should not normally allow speeds in excess of 45 mph in unprepared cars.”   Members of the PC spent much of the afternoon observing the competition and monitoring car speeds through all sections of the course.  I also interviewed various competitors in a variety of stock and street prepared cars as to speed in gears and speed at rev limits.   What the PC determined was that the majority of turns were taken in excess of 45 mph.   In fact, that turns at or below 45 mph were the exception not the norm.  This fact contradicts the quoted statement in 2.1.A. Whether or not a Super Stock GT3 Porsche went 83 mph or 73 mph was never an issue.   The PC must follow the rules and based on our investigation it was determined that the course was not in compliance with 2.1.A. 

 

Results:   The second step in the process is the action taken by the protest committee once it votes to uphold a protest.  Because the course was found to be in excess of the rules times resulting from said illegal course are illegitimate.   Therefore, the logical course of action was to throw out all times from that course.  Without this action, the final results would have been, at least in part, determined by times that were illegitimate.  Allowing illegitimate times to stand undermines the credibility of the event.  This was not a decision taken lightly.  In fact, during the process of hearing this protest, the PC adjourned several times for the purpose of investigation, review and consultation.  I personally met with another member of the SEB, Howard Duncan and (via telephone) SCCA Risk Management.   The Committee was well aware of the impact that its decision would have and anticipated that there would be considerable public debate among the membership.   However, The Committee also knew that they could not allow their decision to be influenced by the prospect of such debate. 

 

Timing of the protest:  I cannot speak for Robert Carpenter but clearly he did not anticipate this result.  It is also important to note that the protest committee cannot act proactively.   A protest must be filed before it can take action.    Remember that it is the responsibility of the competitors to police the sport.  Not only the legality of competitor’s cars but also the courses and the actions of event officials.  When event officials drop the ball it is up to the competitors to take action.   No one wants to be branded a whiner and therefore most are naturally reluctant to take action.   Robert did what he thought was right; the expected reaction on these forums has proven that axiom to be true.  

 

The Protest Committee Members:  I will not identify the individual members here.  If they want to identify themselves they can do so.  I can tell you that, much to the dismay of its critics, the Ft. Myers National Tour Protest Committee members had the best interest of the competitors and membership in mind when they made their ruling.  The three members represent nearly 50 years of National level experience and collectively have more National Championship jackets than will fit in your closet.   Also, they each posted some of the fastest times of this event.  All were chosen for the committee based on their high level of experience, ability, knowledge and integrity.  As a competitor at that event, you could not have been better represented.

 

Conclusion:  It was anticipated by the Protest Committee that their decision would be appealed.  The SEB acts as the National Appeals Committee and will therefore have the responsibility of reviewing the ruling on appeal.  The Protest Committee cannot predict the actions of the Appeals Committee but is confident that whatever action the Appeals Committee takes will best serve the competitors and membership.

 

Steve Hoelscher

Chief of Protest,  Ft. Myers National Tour

Solo Events Board member

 

 

 

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
http://www.terriehoward.com

Thanks for posting Steve!

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I am Chris Hammond.
Going2Colorado.com

If, the protest committee was informed Sunday morning of this issue, should the event safety stewards also been informed? (maybe they were, I don't know. I wasn't there).

I am a little concerned over a lack of proactivity. The purpose of the rule is primarily a safety measure. Keeping corner speeds down reduces chance and severity of accidents. If the PC felt that there was a rules violation, should the Sunday runs have been stopped? I am not saying that its the PCs job to make this determination; it is the Chief of Safety's. I just wonder if the event "management" should have resolved this problem earlier in the day.

I know how hard it is to make these decisions. They are never as black and white as they seem on Monday. I applaud all those who step up and volunteer to run a major event. It is indeed a thankless task.

Regards,

Alan Pozner

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Alan Pozner
Slow and proud

I was trying to explain to my wife about the Fort Myers Tour and what was happening. At one point, I said that the guy protesting was not doing it for the "glory." I also said that the PC surely was not taking the decision lightly and probably deliberated quite extensively to decide the current outcome.

I know if I was on that PC, I would have tried to look at all aspects of the course, speeds, etc. and how the rules apply to the situation. Sort of a no win, but if you think about it, in the long run, it really is a win-win. We will have review of the rules, and implementation of those rules at future events.

Thanks for the post, Steve.

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Matt Murray

I am perfectly capable of learning from my mistakes. I will surely learn a great deal today.

00R101 wrote:

If, the protest committee was informed Sunday morning of this issue, should the event safety stewards also been informed? (maybe they were, I don't know. I wasn't there).

I am a little concerned over a lack of proactivity. The purpose of the rule is primarily a safety measure. Keeping corner speeds down reduces chance and severity of accidents. If the PC felt that there was a rules violation, should the Sunday runs have been stopped? I am not saying that its the PCs job to make this determination; it is the Chief of Safety's. I just wonder if the event "management" should have resolved this problem earlier in the day...

The lawyer in me would say: Although the speeds may have been safe for this venue, and this configuration, they still violated the rules concerning general course design for SCCA Sponsored Solo2 events, and therefore this configuration at this event, although safe, cannot be used for the intended purpose.

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Aut tace aut loquere meliora silentio.

Given the shitstorm that I have read on other threads and forums, Carpenter must possess a pair that squirrels have legends about.

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- Wes 2000 Contour SVT (CP 3L powah) 1995 Miata (CSP, finally on sticky tires)

modernbeat wrote:

The lawyer in me would say: Although the speeds may have been safe for this venue, and this configuration, they still violated the rules concerning general course design for SCCA Sponsored Solo2 events, and therefore this configuration at this event, although safe, cannot be used for the intended purpose.

Precisely.  Safety aside, the course design rules help define what our sport is all about.  We buy and prepare cars assuming they're going to be put to use on a course that meets the rules.

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Bryan
2006 Chrysler Crossfire
DS #187
Yeah, seriously...A Chrysler
2008 C6 Z51 waiting in the wings...

The Lawyer in me would ask "what is an 'unprepared' car?  Is it any car in a category below Prepared?  Or is it a car in 'as delivered from the factory' condition, with stock tires, stock shocks, stock sway bar, stock brake pads, stock exhaust, and an alignment within FSM specs; a car that has not been modified with any of the stock category preparation allowances?" 

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Once you go Mac, you never go back!

I REALLY hope everything turns out ok and we, as a group, do not "overdo it" and get really slow courses with 20 mph corners and top speeds of 50mph or something.
If this starts happening time and time again, I will step back and reconsider my membership in the organization along with many, many others.
There is a "fun" factor that goes along with getting your car "dancing" in second gear...

San Diego will be interesting....
See ya there!

FM Lillejord
SCCA member in good standing.

Steve Hoelscher wrote:

 

On the issue of the ruling:  The protest committee must first determine legality.  The course was protested under 2.1.A.    The protest committee found the course was in excess of 2.1.A in respect to this sentence: “Turns should not normally allow speeds in excess of 45 mph in unprepared cars.”   Members of the PC spent much of the afternoon observing the competition and monitoring car speeds through all sections of the course.  I also interviewed various competitors in a variety of stock and street prepared cars as to speed in gears and speed at rev limits.   What the PC determined was that the majority of turns were taken in excess of 45 mph.   In fact, that turns at or below 45 mph were the exception not the norm.  This fact contradicts the quoted statement in 2.1.A. Whether or not a Super Stock GT3 Porsche went 83 mph or 73 mph was never an issue.   The PC must follow the rules and based on our investigation it was determined that the course was not in compliance with 2.1.A. 

 

Thank you for the excellent in depth explanation, Steve.  This is great feedback and communication - I hope we continue to see more of this!

Mike - The explanation above leads me to believe that turns in excess of 45 mph are allowed as long as it is the exception and not the norm.  The same wording is used for the speeds on straight stretches to not normally exceed 60 mph.  Again, I would say that as long as it isn't the norm of a course, it would be allowed. 

To me, this wouldn't have affected any of the courses I have run on.  I don't think I have ever ran on a course where most of the turns were more than 45mph average, or where most of the straights exceeded 60mph.  I agree in the hope that course designers do not go overboard in the other direction in fear of this.

Jake

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89 Civic Si - STS #73

Slow vs. Fast courses:

Its funny people always come up to me to say you are going to love this course because its slow, but these people don't know what they are talking about. Nobody likes slow courses. We want something challanging but fun.

If you ask I love fast courses, because it gives me the feeling like we all had when we first got started in Solo2 in our gut. I don't want a bunch of slow courses, but we need to have guide line to go by when setting up courses.

Please take time to read 2.1 to see what our guide lines are now. Thank you for your support...

Robert Carpenter

rocracing2001 wrote:

Slow vs. Fast courses:

Its funny people always come up to me to say you are going to love this course because its slow, but these people don't know what they are talking about. Nobody likes slow courses. We want something challanging but fun.

If you ask I love fast courses, because it gives me the feeling like we all had when we first got started in Solo2 in our gut. I don't want a bunch of slow courses, but we need to have guide line to go by when setting up courses.

Please take time to read 2.1 to see what our guide lines are now. Thank you for your support...

Robert Carpenter

Robert:

What on this particular thread is this in response to?

Jake

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89 Civic Si - STS #73

nygaard wrote:

rocracing2001 wrote:

Slow vs. Fast courses:

Its funny people always come up to me to say you are going to love this course because its slow, but these people don't know what they are talking about. Nobody likes slow courses. We want something challanging but fun.

If you ask I love fast courses, because it gives me the feeling like we all had when we first got started in Solo2 in our gut. I don't want a bunch of slow courses, but we need to have guide line to go by when setting up courses.

Please take time to read 2.1 to see what our guide lines are now. Thank you for your support...

Robert Carpenter

Robert:

What on this particular thread is this in response to?

Jake

For what it's worth, after reading all of this, it sounds like this issue needed to be addressed in this instance, certainly.  Very unfortunate for the competitors, though. 

You must have some serious balls to show up in GS in your Celica after all the crap you gave the Mini's last year, nevermind what it took to file this protest.  I have to respect you at least a little for that

Jake

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89 Civic Si - STS #73

Iam no lawyer but....my interpretation of "not normally" means the speed in corners can exceed 45mph on some corners and some courses.

Alan,

Having served on the protest committee at Nationals, I can say this -- the protest committee is there ONLY to RULE on protests, not to initiate them or to encourage them. They are the jury, not the police.

You're right about if anyone should have been proactive, it should have been someone involved in Safety. But again, how was anyone to know how fast the course would have been before they ran it? I've seen plenty of courses I thought would be slow that turned out to be quite fast. I've seen plenty of courses I thought would be tight to be much more open than they appeared. And it's even more difficult to judge what a course will be like when you're just looking at a piece of paper. It also sounds like the PC spent most of the rest of the day analyzing the course speeds as best they could.

It's terrible that this had to happen like it did though.

Karen

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Karen Kraus
2005 SCCA SEDiv FS Champion
2007 SCCA DSL National Champion
2008 SCCA ProSolo L1 Champion

fastmike wrote:

I REALLY hope everything turns out ok and we, as a group, do not "overdo it" and get really slow courses with 20 mph corners and top speeds of 50mph or something.
If this starts happening time and time again, I will step back and reconsider my membership in the organization along with many, many others.
There is a "fun" factor that goes along with getting your car "dancing" in second gear...

San Diego will be interesting....
See ya there!

FM Lillejord
SCCA member in good standing.

The likely effects of the Fort Myers protest on the San Diego Tour courses is certainly not hard to predict. I'd venture that the speeds you mention above will turn out to be just about right

The chief safety steward for the area has already posted on a local board that the GT3 was "clocked at 83 mph all three runs", and then implied that Carpenter's "apology" was basically too "late".

My unsolicited advice would be to find an STS or H Stock ride.

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Gary T

 

The lawyer in me would say that at a minimum, an 'unprepared car' would not include any car from "Street Prepared", as they are by definition "prepared cars". Which leads me to question why xSP car times were being used at all. Seems to me you would only use times in cars from the  Stock classes or risk the decision being based on improper grounds, since xSP would tend to skew the "results" in favor of the rule having been violated.

Hey, it was a great event and well organized.

But....

Every sport has rules. If you don't like the rules then campaign to change them. But don't attack a competitor for asking that the rules be enforced. Especially when the protest is upheld, which just shows he was right. I'm not sure what were the options of the protest committee. I believe they wanted the SEB to make a ruling on speed restrictions so had to rule the way they did.

To me this protest should be handled as a weenie protest: Protest upheld, return the protest money, fix it for the next event or you'll be DQ'd, results stand. IMHO

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

"cheif saftey steward already posted on another board that the GT3 was clocked doing 83mph on all 3 runs..."

What Board? I'd like to explain to him how that was impossible!

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1999 Civic Si SSC