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My experience has all been with fairly slow "doors" so far. 

I know a 125cc shifter is too much to start on.

Before people mentioned to me an 18hp 100cc "clutch" kart in "HPV" class would be good to start on.  Anyone have any suggestions?  Can someone give me more specifics on what makes a "clutch/HPV" kart?

I'm not ready this minute to buy, but I am entertaining thoughts of a change, and I do not have a clue what exactly to look for when shopping for a used starter kart. 

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Adam Wosneski
91 240sx LE -- DSP in 2011 hopefully

Someone told me to get an 80cc shifter kart and learn momentum then go with a 125cc kart. When I drove a 125 at a younger age, I was throwing it around a lot and using up equipment and got sloppy due to the power it has.

David

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David Hedderick
Pearland (Houston), TX
http://www.hyperfuels.com
09 VW Jetta TDI SSC racer
08 Mazda 3s
02 Mazda Protege (automatic tow vehicle)
92 Miata SE - Fun half-arsed STS2 Car

davebs14 wrote:

Someone told me to get an 80cc shifter kart and learn momentum then go with a 125cc kart. When I drove a 125 at a younger age, I was throwing it around a lot and using up equipment and got sloppy due to the power it has. David

From what I've heard, an 80cc shifter would be too fast for me, then throw in shifting and it would be a little much.  But I don't know.

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Adam Wosneski
91 240sx LE -- DSP in 2011 hopefully

Ask Russell Blume if that stopped him from getting one. ;-) He was quick in it but looked to be using up the kart like I was. They're just way too fun to not want to abuse it. :-)

David

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David Hedderick
Pearland (Houston), TX
http://www.hyperfuels.com
09 VW Jetta TDI SSC racer
08 Mazda 3s
02 Mazda Protege (automatic tow vehicle)
92 Miata SE - Fun half-arsed STS2 Car

Have you thought anout a Rotax Max? It's a relatively high-power (~29hp, IIRC) clutch kart....Lots'o'fun!

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Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region FE#64

Can't you just detune the 125cc? Of course if you're wanting to race head-to-head with your starter cart that's a different story.

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Brian Davis, 89 Civic Si, 158 ST

I started with a 125cc shifter. There is a learning curve, but as a seasoned autocrosser, I frankly do not think it is that bad. Of course, when your first real event is at Nationals (as mine was), that may be too much. :)

There are a few basic things to learn, such as how much to slip the clutch, what to do in a spin, how not to stall, how to start, and shifting technique. Other than that...and that it goes a little faster, it is not that different than running a lower hp non-shifter.

The main advantage of the 125cc shifter is you can autocross it legally (or in some areas... at all).

The key is to find someone that can spend a day teaching you... at a kart track.  After 5-6 hours of seat time, you should have no problem.

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XP MR2 or Noble M400
CHASECAM the global leader in motorsport video acqusition. Designed and made in the USA! Sponsor for SCCA ProSolo, Runoffs, SPEED World Challenge, SCCAForums. Supplier to MazdaSpeed, V8Supercars, Formula 1 teams, etc.

I say get a 125cc kart and run it in "stock" form. Jet conservatively. Dont waste $$$ on a clutch kart that wont' have front brakes etc. You won't likely hurt the kart if you overrev it badly and it wont have a ton of wild peaky power. Save that for later when you need the last 0.5s at Topeka.

The biggest challenge to most is getting off the line without stalling. Once you get that down (i couldn't my first 2 runs), the shifting comes pretty naturally. Literally 2-3 runs through the gears and youll be ok, probably losing a couple of tenths being slow to shift over the course of the lap - but no biggy.

Spinning is also pretty natural, most f125 regulars know how to grab the clutch and prevent stalling. I still can't do that, but I'd liek to think that is because I spin about 2-3 times a year and just haven't learned :) You'll immediately think every other car you've driven is slow, yet often your first 6 runs will net a nice C-stock time. They feel much faster than they are, yet they are plenty fast. Cones come up fast. Consider the difference in pace between a SS ZO6 and a GS car. The difference between the F125 and the ZO6 is *twice* that difference. Just like any of the faster classes, mistakes are more costly, but the hidden benefit is that when you run other cars, you have time to change the radio station between cones ;)

Ive had lots of people who've never driven a kart drive mine at local evetns without major problems. As people get faster they tend to take large chunks of time - like 4 runs at some speed and boom drop 1.5s next run.

I think one thing people miss out on is the perspective change. Instead of your head being several feet above cones, its basically at the top of them. I tend to walk courses and get down on a knee to get the perspective.

Shifters are weird, they are basically the most underpowered over-tired vehicle in that they wont even spin the tires for long with a 12,000 rpm clutch drop. Yet mid corner power-on-oversteer is the norm.

And yes - first trip to Topeka in a kart can be a humbling experience ! :)

Dan Cyr

Hmmm... maybe getting time for me to look for another kart.

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XP MR2 or Noble M400
CHASECAM the global leader in motorsport video acqusition. Designed and made in the USA! Sponsor for SCCA ProSolo, Runoffs, SPEED World Challenge, SCCAForums. Supplier to MazdaSpeed, V8Supercars, Formula 1 teams, etc.

davebs14 wrote:

Ask Russell Blume if that stopped him from getting one. ;-) He was quick in it but looked to be using up the kart like I was. They're just way too fun to not want to abuse it. :-) David

Russell is looking way smoother now.  Looked like he was on rails at the last Salina event.

In regards to Randy's comment about 5-6 hours of seat time, just be prepared to be a little sore if that's the first time out in one.  Ask me how I know!  Just get the 125 shifter though and spend some time at a local kart track. 

Dave G.

F125s are definitely meant to be abused. They are actually quite reliable when prepared well, extreme rough pavement can cause problems with breaking things. I never get tired from running many laps in a clutch kart, but a shifter on sticky kart track will literally beat the hell out of you. They are also more "mentally" exhausting than a clutch kart, something about the speed.....

As for seat time, yes it is important but perhaps not necessary. In 2003 I probably had less than 3hrs of shifter kart experience cumulative when I went to Topeka.  I've seen very good drivers (in other vehicles) not take to the shifter well, and others with only a few minutes (say 2 events) get to ~1s of my times - its really quite variable.

Randy you should definitely get one :)

underpaidslave wrote:

Randy you should definitely get one :)

It is not a question of if, but more of when. When I sold it, it was only for the cash to buy the Elise, which was a stretch. Now it is a year later. There is some discussion about maybe getting a C or B Mod car though, but in the end, I will get another kart, though maybe not for national events. Maybe A-Mod gives you the same experience since they are faster and a little higher, but nothing else I have driven is like driving a shifter kart through the cones. It is an insane thing. Plus being able to go to local tracks for $20-40 for the entire day, until you quit from exhaustion. Good times... good times.

I would count myself among those that did not take well to the kart. Maybe my advanced age. :)

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XP MR2 or Noble M400
CHASECAM the global leader in motorsport video acqusition. Designed and made in the USA! Sponsor for SCCA ProSolo, Runoffs, SPEED World Challenge, SCCAForums. Supplier to MazdaSpeed, V8Supercars, Formula 1 teams, etc.

underpaidslave wrote:

I never get tired from running many laps in a clutch kart, but a shifter on sticky kart track will literally beat the hell out of you. They are also more "mentally" exhausting than a clutch kart, something about the speed.....

Have you driven a 125 clutch kart (i.e., RotaxMax, Leopard or equivalent)?  There's a bit less top-end (gearing compromise), but it's still a kick compared to superbox or the other clutch groups.

As for power-on oversteer, it's not the raw power of the 125 that does it, it's the fact that karts have a solid rear axle and are thus set up with lots of caster.  When you try to add power mid-corner, you're overpowering the outside rear; the inside rear is already lifted or sliding.  This is why karts are great for teaching drivers to rotate the car and be smooth through the corner.....

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Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region FE#64

Since we're chatting about it here, I'll post, but also in a separate thread.

Come out to the North East Divisional at Fed Ex Field on July 30/31!  I've signed up to co-drive with a local in F125.  I've had a lot of seat time after some of our schools, so neither of us are newbies.  We're looking for some true National competition or just anyone looking to have a good time for a couple of days.  It would really be a bummer to only have the two of us.

NEDIV, 288 strong right now, but nowhere close to the limit!  http://solo.wdcr-scca.org/

Brian Garfield

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**3Generacing**
Craig: STX MINI Cooper S
Jane: STU Evo
Brian: F125 2000 CTS/Honda
Lisa: F125 2002 CTS/Honda
Julian: CRG Cadet/KT100
Carson: Intrepid Cadet/KT100

randychase wrote:

It is not a question of if, but more of when. When I sold it, it was only for the cash to buy the Elise, which was a stretch. Now it is a year later. There is some discussion about maybe getting a C or B Mod car though, but in the end, I will get another kart, though maybe not for national events. Maybe A-Mod gives you the same experience since they are faster and a little higher, but nothing else I have driven is like driving a shifter kart through the cones. It is an insane thing. Plus being able to go to local tracks for $20-40 for the entire day, until you quit from exhaustion. Good times... good times. I would count myself among those that did not take well to the kart. Maybe my advanced age. :)

Well after a couple of runs in the Shark I can say Amod is quite a bit different. In most ways the Shark is easier to drive, no shifting and it was far better behaved than *any* car. I had to drive like a dolt on cold tires on dirty track to get a nice "tankslapper" oversteer which it easily drove out of. I would have spun virtually any other car. The problem with the Shark is its SO fast and has such incredible performance, you're not really sure if you couldn't take the corner 5mph faster. So you try that next run and you park it to avoid taking out the back wall. Then the next run - you over brake and have to get on the gas before you even get in the corner. Being modestly quick is pretty easy, but there are no perfect runs. Mistakes are amplified because the brake point is so far later than the kart's and it pulls nearly 3g braking. Put it this way.... Ive never had a bruise from my shifter including Peru without a rib protector, or Topeka north course. In 6 runs the Shark left 6 "bites" on me in the form of very small bruises from the g-forces. Nothing bad, and I didn't hurt, but still the g loading is much higher than F125.

I then drove my kart the next event, and thought the motor wasn't running right and my brand new sticker tires were 10y old concession kart tires. Plus the brakes sucked  (then again they always did on my kart) ;)

Actually with proper chassis setup a good clutch kart like a yamaha will not exhibit power on oversteer. Even my Rotax when setup properly and was running competitive laps with national Rotax guys I didn't notice a lot of power on oversteer. So its a combination of the solid axle plus <10lbs/hp or something, because no setup Ive found will prevent power on oversteer in my F125. But thats ok, because they seem to like it - plus its fun :)

Dan Cyr