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The only thing that stands by Mr. White's statements are his complete lack of information.  Speedsource has deeper pockets than every DSP competitor in the USA combined.  Nevermind that they've since moved on to run a fleet of 3-rotor carbon fiber RX-8s that they will gladly sell you for $300k each or that using a MoTeC controller, every custom part you can imagine, and even internal engine mods not allowed in SP and still couldn't Mr. WHite's hidden power claim.  Maybe Bill Gates is planning to run an RX-8 in DSP and I don't know about it, lol.  Just as Jason was saying earlier about the suspension, Mazda didn't leave much that much on the engine table either.  Finding 30 rwhp over OE in a 1.3L engine is a huge accomplishment as it is.  If there's another 25 hp available the mods required to get out it aren't allowed in SP.

I thought all the same things about the RX-8 in STU and discovered the hard way that the sum of the parts don't always add up ... period.

whitecivic:

I think my quote is right on ! someone WILL have or can get deep wallets to find HP's, if not this year, the next & so on, so on. If I remember right the BMW's started with about 205hp's and now there at E36 235hp's+ not sure about the E46 but he will find more. A 30hp gain in the last 5 years for the E36, I know there diferent motor's but there always more to find and to come out with "there no more Hp's for these engines" some of us have been autocrossing for 22 years and see though the sea of cones.

Mr White

Can I get some of what Mr. White is smoking? Engines just don't "grow" horespower. And with SP mods, you can't get the motor breathing THAT much better, not after all the low hanging fruit has been gathered. Intake, header, exhaust, tuning, pulleys, good rebuild and you've found the lion's share of the power available. Depending on how good the OTS stuff is, you might get another handful of ponies spending buckets of money on custom headers, ITB's, etc.

I don't think Sipe cut any corners in his STU build. The only unanswered question with the engine is if there is much to be gained when you can throw emissions concerns to the wind. If there are, it'll mostly be in the shape of the curve that the differences will be seen, not necessarily the peak number.

Good point Aaron, I forgot about the Celica. The Celica could probably make more power then the Acura too, or at least really close. I know the drag guys had the GT-S's getting down the quarter quite a bit quicker then the ITR. How much lighter would the Celica need to be to overcome suspension advantage the Acura has? That is the real question around that car.

Well Nate,

            Go ahead and get on the band wagon and when you start getting beat up by the RX-8's and finish 10th instead of 5th or better, you'll find yourself wishing there was a DSPF for front wheel drive cars only. I called SpeedSource and talk in lenght about the RX-8 when we all started this, they were very helpful . Well I wrote my letter with the facts that I got from speedsource I sure they will call them and find out. I'll be sticking to my guns and as I find out more info, will be writing letters. 

Mr White   

whitecivic:

Well Nate,

            Go ahead and get on the band wagon and when you start getting beat up by the RX-8's and finish 10th instead of 5th or better, you'll find yourself wishing there was a DSPF for front wheel drive cars only. I called SpeedSource and talk in lenght about the RX-8 when we all started this, they were very helpful . Well I wrote my letter with the facts that I got from speedsource I sure they will call them and find out. I'll be sticking to my guns and as I find out more info, will be writing letters.

I just don't see how an additional 25-30hp can be found in this motor over the next 5 years???

P.S. I personally haven't written a letter yet as I previously mentioned I'd wait until after Solo Nats has taken place. I'm also not aware of any "Move the RX-8 to DSP" letters that have been submitted at this time.

Chiketkd:

I just don't see how an additional 25-30hp can be found in this motor over the next 5 years???

3 Turbonators should do it.  It's pretty well proven ;)

Like I wrote before I'm waiting intill after the National's and we'll see ?

Mr White

Panzer:

3 Turbonators should do it.  It's pretty well proven ;)

Dude, I don't think you can fit wide enough tires on an RX-8 to handle the power that those things will give it!

whitecivic:

Well Nate,

            Go ahead and get on the band wagon and when you start getting beat up by the RX-8's and finish 10th instead of 5th or better, you'll find yourself wishing there was a DSPF for front wheel drive cars only. I called SpeedSource and talk in lenght about the RX-8 when we all started this, they were very helpful . Well I wrote my letter with the facts that I got from speedsource I sure they will call them and find out. I'll be sticking to my guns and as I find out more info, will be writing letters. 

Mr White   

I've already stated, multiple times, that I believe the 8 is too fast for DSP. It's not because of power though, and the idea that an engine will magically pick up 5hp every year is preposterous. I'm not going to make outrageous power gain claims to defend my position. Doing so only weakens the argument when the claim is proven as outrageous. Just like the "it's a 4 seater, so it can't be in CSP" is a weak argument. The 8's strengths over the BMW are found in braking (e36 brake feel is terrible, and the ABS isn't particularly brilliant either), handling (the BMW has a very high cg and horrible geometry compared to the 8) and balance (not just weight distribution, but power, gearing, braking, handling, steering feel, brake feel, etc). 210-220whp is right in the neighborhood of the BMW, and while the torque number isn't there, the gearing is. Delivered torque is what matters, not just that number on the dyno, and the 8 has some excellent gearing. As good as the ITR? Maybe not, but then, it doesn't have the drive tires on the wrong end either.

BTW, I would never want an "I" class. Remember, I'm the crazy guy that bought and built the "wrong" car for the class last year. I also built and was cometitive in the wrong Honda for ST, not once, but TWICE! Band wagon? Hardly. If I didn't think that the 8 coming to DSP would kill the class, I wouldn't even be bothering with this.

solo-x:

 

Good point Aaron, I forgot about the Celica. The Celica could probably make more power then the Acura too, or at least really close. I know the drag guys had the GT-S's getting down the quarter quite a bit quicker then the ITR. How much lighter would the Celica need to be to overcome suspension advantage the Acura has? That is the real question around that car.

Nate, I think power wise it would be a toss up, but suspension wise, the Celica is in trouble and it's one of the reasons I didn't slap on some r-compounds & a LSD and see what it could do.  I decided to cut my losses - AB

Im not to smart on RX8's. I do know an rx7 with an LS motor is very fun.  I say let the RX8 come to DSP.  I think no matter it comes down to driver. Everyone always forgets the driver mod.  I did a test and tune in My DSP E30 thats not so DSP and was stopming the daylights out of guys in STI's and WRX's. They drivers were not to slow but still 300 horse to my maybe 170.  Its all in the drver and how he can man handle the car i think. But Im not pro just my opion.

bmwguy325is:

Im not to smart on RX8's.

 

I say let the RX8 come to DSP. 

John V:

bmwguy325is:

Hmmm... this quesionable character wants to come into my house.

 

I say let him in!. 

 

 

 

 

 Is that better?

solo-x:

I've already stated, multiple times, that I believe the 8 is too fast for DSP. It's not because of power though, and the idea that an engine will magically pick up 5hp every year is preposterous. I'm not going to make outrageous power gain claims to defend my position. Doing so only weakens the argument when the claim is proven as outrageous. Just like the "it's a 4 seater, so it can't be in CSP" is a weak argument. The 8's strengths over the BMW are found in braking (e36 brake feel is terrible, and the ABS isn't particularly brilliant either), handling (the BMW has a very high cg and horrible geometry compared to the 8) and balance (not just weight distribution, but power, gearing, braking, handling, steering feel, brake feel, etc). 210-220whp is right in the neighborhood of the BMW, and while the torque number isn't there, the gearing is. Delivered torque is what matters, not just that number on the dyno, and the 8 has some excellent gearing. As good as the ITR? Maybe not, but then, it doesn't have the drive tires on the wrong end either.

Nate,

I think you make some good points about the RX-8's advantages over a typical DSP BMW (braking, handling and balance).

Power-wise the RX-8 is in-line with the E36's, but E46's can definitely make more than 210-220whp (but will also carry a bigger weight penalty). With regards to delivered torque/gearing, while I agree the dyno doesn't tell the whole story, do understand that peak power and torque in an RX-8 both come in above 6K rpms. So while looking at peak numbers, the RX-8's "delivered torque" might be close to the E36 BMW's, in reality the RX-8 will be outside of this "power peak" during most of its time on course. We also don't have the advantage of a long first gear like the S2000.

Chiketkd:

solo-x:

I've already stated, multiple times, that I believe the 8 is too fast for DSP. It's not because of power though, and the idea that an engine will magically pick up 5hp every year is preposterous. I'm not going to make outrageous power gain claims to defend my position. Doing so only weakens the argument when the claim is proven as outrageous. Just like the "it's a 4 seater, so it can't be in CSP" is a weak argument. The 8's strengths over the BMW are found in braking (e36 brake feel is terrible, and the ABS isn't particularly brilliant either), handling (the BMW has a very high cg and horrible geometry compared to the 8) and balance (not just weight distribution, but power, gearing, braking, handling, steering feel, brake feel, etc). 210-220whp is right in the neighborhood of the BMW, and while the torque number isn't there, the gearing is. Delivered torque is what matters, not just that number on the dyno, and the 8 has some excellent gearing. As good as the ITR? Maybe not, but then, it doesn't have the drive tires on the wrong end either.

Nate,

I think you make some good points about the RX-8's advantages over a typical DSP BMW (braking, handling and balance).

Power-wise the RX-8 is in-line with the E36's, but E46's can definitely make more than 210-220whp (but will also carry a bigger weight penalty). With regards to delivered torque/gearing, while I agree the dyno doesn't tell the whole story, do understand that peak power and torque in an RX-8 both come in above 6K rpms. So while looking at peak numbers, the RX-8's "delivered torque" might be close to the E36 BMW's, in reality the RX-8 will be outside of this "power peak" during most of its time on course. We also don't have the advantage of a long first gear like the S2000.

That's odd.  Every RX-8 dyno that I've ever seen has the torque peak right around 6,000 RPM... but the torque band is very flat between 3,000 and 9,000 RPM, not varying much between 100 and 125 ft-lbs.