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Not to drift too much (this thread has remained remarkably on-topic), but what is the philosophical angle on limiting yourself to stock class vehicle choices?  The driving experience difference between AS and HS is huge.  The car to have for class varies by tens of thousands of dollars class to class.  If all of that variation is on the table, why not an SP class?  I am in no way trying to change your mind, just genuinely curious what the thinking is behind that...

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WTB: CSP Spyder parts. What you got?

not everyone has the time or inclination to build and tune an SP car.  i don't have the time to build and tune a freakin' STS2 miata (<-- Exhibit 1: body roll), so Stock class would mean more time racing and less time wrenching.

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Mike - #44 STS2
'91 Miata - racer
'07 CX-7 - dog taxi
www.phillyscca.com
www.GreyhoundAngelsAdoption.com

AStocker:

"The 350Z can't be considered slow, the best data point is Carter being 2nd last year .1 out in a Z, and 3rd this year somewhat further out in the "car to have RX8".  Well within the realm of "doesn't matter, each car can win"."

You might have a point here, but that same data point shows Carter bailing on the car for a RX8.

Paul  

Not the case at all... After/during the 2006 Natls Carter was laid-off from Nissan and turned the car in, company lease or something. Why he got the RX-8 over any other car in any class I don't know, maybe he should have picked up another MR-2. ;)

If you were going to buy a BS car the RX-8 cost less and Mazda has a support program that Nissan does not, that imho means there will always be more RX-8s in the class than 350Zs no matter which car is better.    

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Jason Isley
2005-2006-2007 B Stock National Champion

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/28/officially-official-2008-chevy-cobalt-ss-bows-at-sema/

another DS car to add to the mix perhaps?

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Dennis Healy - OR-SCCA
2003 Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V - STX/GS [SOLD]

boardkat:

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/28/officially-official-2008-chevy-cobalt-ss-bows-at-sema/

another DS car to add to the mix perhaps?

 

Soft springs - 154 lb/in fronts?  I thought the SRT4 springs were soft.

Competitive?  Maybe.  Needs camber adjustment, reasonable weight, and reasonable roll stiffness distribution. 

 

Now styling....didn't they learn anything from the GTO?  Can you say bland?  Not that I like the basket handle wing on my car, but it at least stands out a little compared to a base Neon.

rallyfreak:

 

Soft springs - 154 lb/in fronts?  I thought the SRT4 springs were soft.

Competitive?  Maybe.  Needs camber adjustment, reasonable weight, and reasonable roll stiffness distribution. 

Now styling....didn't they learn anything from the GTO?  Can you say bland?  Not that I like the basket handle wing on my car, but it at least stands out a little compared to a base Neon.

 

Those spring rates are oddly similar to my Spec V (154F/247R) - I wonder how much the Cobalt SS will weigh, and what the F/R distribution will be like - if it's anything like my car, it'll be fun to not be the only one tripod-ing excessively out here :)

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Dennis Healy - OR-SCCA
2003 Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V - STX/GS [SOLD]

RX8 vs 350Z for BS.....guess we better chime in and set the record straight on why we changed from Z to RX8.

Short version......the Z is too nose heavy(understeer prone) and based on performance is better suited for FS ( Sam does not agree).

Long version.......in our judgement the 2006 Natls was not a good data point for the Z. We believe Carter's 0.100 second place finish was the result of three factors when he was fastest on the East course on Day 2:

1. Had a rerun and his final run was one of his best runs ever.The rerun was huge,it allowed us to get tire temps right were we wanted before  final run.

2. Course was good for the Z.

3. Conditions were good for the Z ( grip good enough to minimize understeer).

We believe our '05 Z was developed to the limit for autoX. On an above average grip asphalt surface it was very fast but on a below average surface understeer could not be dialed out and the car was not fast. WE judge HPT to be a surface that will vary from average (at it's best,rubber down and cleaned)to less than average grip because of the sand problem. We believe the sand problem will not get better with time. Accordingly we decided to sell the Z on our drive home from Topeka in '06 because the Z needs better than average grip to minimize understeer and perform well.

We suggest that for data points one should look at all best Z Natls BS results:

2003   6th ( Carter )

2004   29th ( Andy Hohl )

2005   13th ( Carter )

2006    2nd ( Carter )

2007    10th ( Glenn )

 

As for the RX8 ....compared to the Z ,the 8 is easy to setup,turns great and works well on most any surface. Again this year Carter was fastest on Day 2 ( Jason has thus named him Day 2 Thompson ) but this time no reruns and he was fastest from first run.

Bottom line....we still believe the RX8 is by far the best car for BS.

Well, I honestly don't know what my spring rates are in the 06, but they don't roll THAT bad.

@ Nats with a 1/2 tank of gas and the spare in it, the car weighed in @ 2907. The LNF motor and it's parts aren't that much different than the LSJ that is in the 2005-07 cars. Now, Mine also doesn't have the LSD option on the car so that would add wieght if I had a G85 equipped car.

 My wieght dist. was 62/48 IIRC from what GM did @ nats as well, and that was with me in the car. I'm interested to see just what the car is going to be like as well. Do I think it will be competitive in DS out of teh box?? NO... I DO think the car could have the potential to be a decent mid-pack runner, if not a decent lower-trophy spot car.

BUT... it is going to remain to be seen if anyone is going to have the nerve to try and develop one. I've thought about this ALOT and am trying to get a gameplan together for next year, so this is a case I'm seriously looking at since I'll already have an idea of what the car is going to handle like, and plus I already have wheels and tires for it.

HAS TO have the LSD, or it's all for nothing... just like a co-driver of mine said this year ."Imagine a 200HP self propelled lawnmower... sure it's fun, but what can you do with all that power and can't use it??"

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Brian Huber
2006 Cobalt SS-Supercharged
#58DS
Official car of One-Wheel Drive Racing's 2008 Solo campaign...
If you aint last, then you aren't driving this car.

In the link they state a limited slip will be offered as an option.  No word on exactly what type.  Even a LSD won't put ALL of the power down all of the time.  I know I've lit up both tires coming out of corners in the past in my SRT4 (with LSD), especially when running on smaller diameter tires.  That happens rarely with the bigger 225/50R16s. 

funhondas:

If I can be competitive in a 89 Civic Si, and SportsCar said that I "might be competitive", then take a competitive driver and put them in a 89 Civic
Si and they would walk away with the championship.

HS, 89 Civic Si, (what else would I pick, it will be lighter next year and have more neg camber and a built motor)

 

Chang

 

Chang, wake up and buy a 7g Civic like mine.  Now with 2.0 neg camber, 225's front, and weighing in at 2398 with 3 gallons gas ready to go....You know you will have your hands full with David and I next year.  He is now driving the car with me FULL time next year to help me develop the new goodies on the car.

How do you "build" a stock motor and add more camber to a car that already has 2 degrees neg camber with no camber adjustment?  What am I missing?

As for the Mini and Mazda 3 cars...the Mini phase is over in HS, believe me, OVER!

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D. Scott Bourne
192HS
DATS Racing LLC
Kumho Motorsports
Ken Towery's Motorsports
Tokico USA

DATS Racing, All DATS, All the time!

tomsn16:

2007    10th ( Glenn )

 

As for the RX8 ....compared to the Z ,the 8 is easy to setup,turns great and works well on most any surface. Again this year Carter was fastest on Day 2 ( Jason has thus named him Day 2 Thompson ) but this time no reruns and he was fastest from first run.

Bottom line....we still believe the RX8 is by far the best car for BS.

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Glenn L. Austin, Computer Wizard and Race Car Driver
2005 Ultra Yellow Nissan 350Z Track Model
2007 Packwood ProSolo "first loser" (0.081)
2007 SCCA Solo National Championships - 10th place

rallyfreak:

In the link they state a limited slip will be offered as an option.  No word on exactly what type.  Even a LSD won't put ALL of the power down all of the time.  I know I've lit up both tires coming out of corners in the past in my SRT4 (with LSD), especially when running on smaller diameter tires.  That happens rarely with the bigger 225/50R16s. 

 Very true.... Don't forget, this car will have the 18 x 7.5 wheels as well, so there should... SHOULD be enough mass there to keep teh spinning down. As some watching my east course runs this year noticed, my inside tire still lit up a ton without the LSD running 225/40-18 hoosiers.

 I'll wait to see one and drive one before I talk any further on it.

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Brian Huber
2006 Cobalt SS-Supercharged
#58DS
Official car of One-Wheel Drive Racing's 2008 Solo campaign...
If you aint last, then you aren't driving this car.

I really don't think the Cobalt SS(turbo) will put the power down properly with that chassis. even with a 245ish tire (don't think they can go any wider), 18" wheel, and the LSD. the ITR's have enough problem putting down their 195hp with no torque and a quite good LSD. Maybe this is a personal opinion but the only times having big power like that at the slow speeds/gearing we're at is on a RWD or AWD. It may be some good competition for the SRT-4 at Pro-Solo where there's some more point and shoot stuff, but i don't see it as a threat yet. i've got no problem being shown i was incorrect if somebody wants to prep one up. by the way, how heavy are the Cobalts?

I'll still stay with my choice and try to get the rear suspension not to be a plow i pull around the course. 

Be interesting to see what all happens over silly season. last year the big talk was the MazdaSpeed 3 in DS and i haven't seen one race yet other then on the OEM tires. 

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Bridesmaid Racing
2008 Kansas City NT DS Runner-Up
2008 Milwaukee NT DS Runner-Up
2007 SCCA Nationals DS Runner-Up
2007 Milwaukee NT DS Runner-Up
2006 ASN Nationals DS Runner-Up

JT_TT:

Be interesting to see what all happens over silly season. last year the big talk was the MazdaSpeed 3 in DS and i haven't seen one race yet other then on the OEM tires. 

 I have, and it does seem to have some potential.  The car in question is still pretty early in the development process from what I understand, but ran at at least one Tour (Devens) and one Pro (Finger Lakes).

 Bret

64ES

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64ES
5th highest total number of cones hit at 2007 Nationals. Sorry workers!

JT... I can say with some certainty that if there's anyone that is not a GM employee running one of the new cars, it MIGHT be me. I've proven to be the only one not worried to risk coming in last that would run one :)

 As I said, I don't think the car is going to be a front runner out of the box. It COULD have some luck on the open courses ( west course this year ) and as you stated, the Pro-Solos given the right course.

My 06 SS wieghs in @ a tick under 2900 lbs without driver. While that's not light like a ITR, it's not as heavy as some. I think with proper development and a good driver ( not me... I need seat time ), that this car could be a higer-mid-pack car for sure and get some trophy spots.

Locally, I don't contend with anything but AWD cars in DS, as we have a bunch of WRXs and an R32 to beat up on me. MAYBE next year we'll have a guy bring his MS3 if he gets stickies for it. I'm not a "cobalts rule" kinda guy and ask anyone that knows my plight this year about how frustrating the non-LSD SS has been ( as you all saw @ Topeka this fall ), and I've been lookingf hard at alternatives for next year.

Anyway... it's all speculation until they start hitting showrooms and the cones. I'll be interested to see how much the GMPD folks get behind the car on the Autocross level. THAT will say alot about what the car is capable since they've tried before with the LSJ cars and moved on to the Solstices ( Solsti ? )

 

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Brian Huber
2006 Cobalt SS-Supercharged
#58DS
Official car of One-Wheel Drive Racing's 2008 Solo campaign...
If you aint last, then you aren't driving this car.

Darkhelmet:

Locally, I don't contend with anything but AWD cars in DS, as we have a bunch of WRXs and an R32 to beat up on me. MAYBE next year we'll have a guy bring his MS3 if he gets stickies for it. I'm not a "cobalts rule" kinda guy and ask anyone that knows my plight this year about how frustrating the non-LSD SS has been ( as you all saw @ Topeka this fall ), and I've been lookingf hard at alternatives for next year.

Why not just add the LSD to your car and call it a day?  Is it not a stand-alone option?

Bret

64ES

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64ES
5th highest total number of cones hit at 2007 Nationals. Sorry workers!

Actually, it depends on the year and build date of teh car....

 all 2005 & 2006 Cobalt SS/SC's were made available with it in the "Performance Package" (RPO G85) for $1500 that came with the Quaife LSD and special Recaro front bucket seats. So... I would have to get the seats as well.

Early build 2007s had the package as well, but the 2nd half of the build cycle of 2007, they stopped putting the seats in and the LSD became a stand-alone option for $750.

The LSD is $995 by itself, and many I've talked to @ GM recommended against adding it in, saying it would be more of a headache than it's worth unless someone really knew the transmissions well. They recommended finding an LSD equipped tranny in a salvage yard, etc... and do a full swap. For me, that means getting the Recaro seats as well, and they're not easy to find becuase everyone wants them that doesn't have them.

This is still something I'm looking into as I have a few leads on some parts should I decide to develop mine.

 

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Brian Huber
2006 Cobalt SS-Supercharged
#58DS
Official car of One-Wheel Drive Racing's 2008 Solo campaign...
If you aint last, then you aren't driving this car.

OH YA !!  WELL MY MINI IS GONA HAVE 3.0 NEG CAMBER NEXT YEAR  !!!!!!!!!!!!

ScottH560:

funhondas:

If I can be competitive in a 89 Civic Si, and SportsCar said that I "might be competitive", then take a competitive driver and put them in a 89 Civic
Si and they would walk away with the championship.

HS, 89 Civic Si, (what else would I pick, it will be lighter next year and have more neg camber and a built motor)

 

Chang

 

Chang, wake up and buy a 7g Civic like mine.  Now with 2.0 neg camber, 225's front, and weighing in at 2398 with 3 gallons gas ready to go....You know you will have your hands full with David and I next year.  He is now driving the car with me FULL time next year to help me develop the new goodies on the car.

How do you "build" a stock motor and add more camber to a car that already has 2 degrees neg camber with no camber adjustment?  What am I missing?

As for the Mini and Mazda 3 cars...the Mini phase is over in HS, believe me, OVER!

harts:

OH YA !!  WELL MY MINI IS GONA HAVE 3.0 NEG CAMBER NEXT YEAR  !!!!!!!!!!!!

 From what I hear...If you drop it from 10 feet you get -1.0, 20 feet = -2.0, To get -3 it's something like 50' and it must land perfectly flat
 

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Mark Hirt
2007 MX-5 MS-R
Bowman Race Kart - rented
Webmaster Chicago Region SCCA

Darkhelmet:

As I said, I don't think the car is going to be a front runner out of the box. It COULD have some luck on the open courses ( west course this year ) and as you stated, the Pro-Solos given the right course.

My 06 SS wieghs in @ a tick under 2900 lbs without driver. While that's not light like a ITR, it's not as heavy as some. I think with proper development and a good driver ( not me... I need seat time ), that this car could be a higer-mid-pack car for sure and get some trophy spots.

I think the turbo SS could do quite well in the class - it should do everything at least as well if not better than the former s/c model. And for 22K, it should be a screaming deal. I would consider buying one except I want to move away from awd/fwd cars and go to rwd in my next car purchase.

Btw, I drove my friend's bone-stock non-lsd SS S/C a few months back and was quite impressed with how it handled. Traction under hard acceleration is definitely the weak point of the car. 

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Chike Dellimore - Blue Ridge/Washington DC Regions
2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT Mazda RX-8 (B-stock)
Former 2006 Steel Gray 5spd WRX (D-stock)

"Between now and Nats, f!ck seat time - I'm working on crazy!!!"