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OrangeVette:

Another argument against weighing with driver, and the weight proposed is the fact that P cars are physical cars to drive.  The 200 pound 6’ driver is much more likely to muscle the car around the course with ease between added muscle, mass, and leverage than a just over 5’ 100 lb. driver.  So you are now asking the small driver to drop their weight advantage to the larger driver and gain nothing in return.  

I know that Modified has competed under these rules for years; even with placing ballast where ever you want it argument, I think it is a punishment to the smaller drivers; it does not even the playing field as so many feel.

This is the best argument against the rule change I have heard - it is logical and does not use a double-standard.  I don't agree with it, but it is a good argument.

It may require physical strength, mass, and leverage to wrestle a manual steering CP car around, but my power steering Miata could be driven by a wisp of a driver.  I don't buy the "strength advantage" argument, at least not in DP.

Back to the double-standard thing.  Many of the arguments against have been along the line of "the added weight differential of the driver doesn't really make a difference, so don't add it to me and penalize me."  Either it makes a difference, or it doesn't.  I could see an argument that "It doesn't make any real difference, so don't complicate things", but to complain that it will punish the light folks is just an admission that it does make a difference.  The argument then comes back to "We've always had this advantage, it's not fair that you would take away an advantage that we have due to genetic differences."  That wouldn't be said, because it sounds like as poor an argument as it is.

 I do like the logic of Prepared cars requiring more strength, so this offsets the weight penalty of being heavier.

But what about E-Mods?

 

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Ed Locke
2006 CR-SCCA XP Champion (Hey! I showed up.)
#248 SM/XP/DP/GS/BS/etc.
At Track Graphics (http://www.attrackgraphics.com)
Skull Motorsports (http://www.skullmotorsports.com)

J P Stein:

The new proposal is just flat stupid.....it penalizes the

light folks & rewards the ..ah..not light.

No.  It reduces the advantage the light folks already have.   I weigh 240 lbs.  If Darrin Desimo was to run DP in a car that was at the current minimum, my car with me in it would weigth 100 lbs more than Darrin's car with him in it. 

Under the proposed rule, our car's with us in them would weigh the same but Darrin would have 60 lbs of balast to put where ever he wanted too.    

So how does this punish the Darrin?   He gets to put sixty pounds of balast where ever he wants it to make weight.  I loose 40 lbs of balast that would have been where I wanted it.

And before you tell me to loose weight, I am 6'3" and 240 lbs.  I have a regular, daily workout routine that consists of riding my bicycle 10 miles and a half hour exercise program with free weights.  If I were to try really hard I could probably drop another 20 lbs but that's about it.

 

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
http://www.terriehoward.com

Congratulations on being in excellent shape, Steve.   I think Sue's point was that weight is not the only physical differentiator between drivers.   If you are saying that through other allowances in the class that you can level the playing field from a strength, reach, size, vision, etc. standpoint then I would agree.  I once made the point in a driver weight discussion with Scotty White that he did not know what it is like to be a 5' 100lb woman.  Using a common weight standard to cover the many physical disparities driver's have is pretty simplistic.

 -Andy M.

Steve Hoelscher:

[

And before you tell me to loose weight, I am 6'3" and 240 lbs.  I have a regular, daily workout routine that consists of riding my bicycle 10 miles and a half hour exercise program with free weights.  If I were to try really hard I could probably drop another 20 lbs but that's about it.

 

BMI says otherwise.  Have a look here.  "Normal" for 6' 3" is 150-200, so you need to lose 40 lbs just to hit the high end of normal.

As for losing/gaining weight, it's not just how many calories you burn from exercise (and just existing).  It's "intake minus burn".  So eat less/better while doing your current regime and you'll stabilize at a lower body mass.

--Andy

 

Steve Hoelscher:

No.  It reduces the advantage the light folks already have...

I'm not sure I agree with this.  I do think that it reduces the perception of an advantage that the light folks have.  I have yet to see anything resembling data that points to lighter drivers having an advantage.  If that were the case, then why can women run both the ladies and open class?  I realize that common sense dictates that a lighter car is better than a heavier one, and I think I would rather have the ability to place ballast weight where I wanted it vs being forced to have it in the driver's seat, but I also thought that when my son started karting.  Turns out I was wrong with the kart.  For a given total weight, the kart is faster with a heavier driver and less ballast, because the driver can shift his weight enough to improve the kart's handling.  I don't expect that to be true in a full sized car, but the arguement about larger people generally having greater strength seems valid.  I added power steering to my car to make it easier for my small self to drive.  A larger person might not have to.  To me, the point is there isn't really a strong argument on either side of this fence, and people are simply going to vote based on how much they personally weigh.  I really don't like the idea of having to handle 40-60lbs of ballast between runs at a big event if I have a co-driver.  To me, that is the biggest reason to not support this change.

 

-Chris   

Chris Raglin:

 I really don't like the idea of having to handle 40-60lbs of ballast between runs at a big event if I have a co-driver. 

Maybe a better question for the Mod forum, but in classes that are weighed with driver, who is reponsible for policing whether or not the correct amount of ballast is actually in the vehicle for each driver on every run?  Is this the grid worker's responsiblity or fellow competitors?  IMO I have better things to do on grid at a big event than make sure everyone else is on the up and up, not just putting the weight in as they go across the scales afterward. 

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#78 EPwww.crxmotorsports.com

All of you guys are writing letters, correct? seb@scca.com If yuo don't get a log number within a week, send it again. 

I really don't have a dog in this fight, and lean more towards not weighing with driver in P becuase it simply is too big a change, but the argument that weighing with driver is more unfair doesn't make a darn bit of sense to me. 

Under the current system any variance of driver weight directly effects the performance of the car.  While some of us could certainly lose some weight, I can't see my 6'7" tall frame evewr weighing the same as Andy Hollis.

If P weighed with driver, all cars could have the ability to weigh the same at the start line (depending on class weight formula of course)

How is that unfair?

DaveW

 

 

 

I run XP with a light car and a relatively small motor ...no 400 hp monster here, or a four valve motor, FI, ABS, Traction control, unobtainium tires. Our weights are based on engine size already.....plus adding a bonus(?) of 20lbs per liter for having the engine behind the driver (since "equality" was brought up)......can't imagine at what manufacture that is aimed at.

Why then should I have to add weight because a perfectly conditioned 250 pound marathon runner also chooses to run DP? 

I want to run XP because there is more competition but I am NOT going to run 80 lbs of ballast. If this thing goes thru I will go to E Mod and not have to worry about some capricious (for those of you that read) rule change. 

47CP:

All of you guys are writing letters, correct? seb@scca.com If yuo don't get a log number within a week, send it again. 

I really don't have a dog in this fight, and lean more towards not weighing with driver in P becuase it simply is too big a change, but the argument that weighing with driver is more unfair doesn't make a darn bit of sense to me. 

Under the current system any variance of driver weight directly effects the performance of the car.  While some of us could certainly lose some weight, I can't see my 6'7" tall frame evewr weighing the same as Andy Hollis.

If P weighed with driver, all cars could have the ability to weigh the same at the start line (depending on class weight formula of course)

How is that unfair?

DaveW

 

Why stop at 200lbs and Prepared classes then?  How about we weigh every driver and make everyone ballast up to the heaviest one.  Stock, ST, and SP classes could participate too.  Everybody could lug around lead seat pads - it would be great fun.  If we set it at 200lbs, it's still unfair to someone who is 300lbs.  In any case, the issue at hand is not whether we think it is fair or not.  The issue is do we like the idea or not.  I dislike the idea because it would cause me to have to carry and handle some pretty heavy weights, and opens up all of the issues of policing the correct use of removable ballast.

-Chris 

  

 

I run XP with a light car and a relatively small motor ...no 400 hp monster here, or a four valve motor, FI, ABS, Traction control, unobtainium tires. Our weights are based on engine size already.....plus adding a bonus(?) of 20lbs per liter for having the engine behind the driver (since "equality" was brought up)......can't imagine at what manufacture that is aimed at.

Why then should I have to add weight because a perfectly conditioned 250 pound marathon runner also chooses to run DP? 

I want to run XP because there is more competition but I am NOT going to run 80 lbs of ballast. If this thing goes thru I will go to E Mod and not have to worry about some capricious (for those of you that read) rule change. 

Not trying to be argumentative, and not rejecting your very valid opion, but I don't follow your logic.

If weighing with driver in XP goes through, you would not add 80lbs of ballast to compete and would rather spend untold thousands to go to a lighter EM *that also weighs with driver*? 

Anyway, please write a letter to seb@scca.com with your thoughts.

DaveW

Not official

J P Stein:

I run XP with a light car and a relatively small motor ...no 400 hp monster here, or a four valve motor, FI, ABS, Traction control, unobtainium tires. Our weights are based on engine size already.....plus adding a bonus(?) of 20lbs per liter for having the engine behind the driver (since "equality" was brought up)......can't imagine at what manufacture that is aimed at.

Why then should I have to add weight because a perfectly conditioned 250 pound marathon runner also chooses to run DP? 

I want to run XP because there is more competition but I am NOT going to run 80 lbs of ballast. If this thing goes thru I will go to E Mod and not have to worry about some capricious (for those of you that read) rule change. 

Come on over to the Dark Side and run E MOD. Your very welcome here. By the way, I run 320 pounds of ballast to get E Mod legal.

Del Long

dglong:

Come on over to the Dark Side and run E MOD. Your very welcome here. By the way, I run 320 pounds of ballast to get E Mod legal.

Del Long

Heh, there's one in every crowd. You have a *real* E Mod car, Del, mine is a pretender. As I recall you run D Mod also.

If I could get within 100 lbs of E Mod minimum weight I'd be happy as a clam at high tide. Unfortunately I would have to make a bunch of air where there is now metal. Local competition in E Mod is nonexistent and that's not as much fun....it's only slightly better at the local Tour event whereas XP (at the Tour at least) has a bunch. XP is also an expanding class, me thinks.....if the rules stay stable. The 400+ hp guys (or 200 pounders) wouldn't worry much about adding a bit of weight....another Corvette class is what we need.

 

The "new improved" rule would force me to add 30lbs to the 50lbs already there to make XP. It broke my heart to add ballast the first time, I ain't doing no more. So I sent my email & we'll see, eh.

I could always go run only PCA where Mod classes are based soley on engine size & runwhatchabrung.....but I like the variety of SCCA  and a lot of nice folks. I am one also tho I sound like an a$$hole here. If one speaks up for what they believe one risks offending someone....so be it.
 

 

Andy Hollis:

BMI says otherwise.  Have a look here.  "Normal" for 6' 3" is 150-200, so you need to lose 40 lbs just to hit the high end of normal.

Andy, you have got to be kidding.  When I was 18 years old and racing motor cycles I weighed 210 lbs and looked like a scare crow.  At 6'3" and 150 lbs I would be hospitalized. 

I am well aware of the 'burn vs intake' issue.  I used that very thing to drop about 20 lbs two years ago.  What makes the difference is what makes the weight.  I dropped four inches off my waist and went up in coat size from a 44 long to a 48 long.  I now carry less fat and more muscle. 

I remember seeing Bo Jackson run the 100 meter sprints at an NCAA track meet many years ago.  Bo (Auburn University running back) was 6 feet and 210 lbs.  I doubt there was more than a single pound of excess weight on his whole body.  By the BMI chart you linked, he was WAAAAY overweight.   Yeah, right.....

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
http://www.terriehoward.com

Chris Raglin:

Steve Hoelscher:

No.  It reduces the advantage the light folks already have...

I'm not sure I agree with this.  I do think that it reduces the perception of an advantage that the light folks have.  I have yet to see anything resembling data that points to lighter drivers having an advantage.  If that were the case, then why can women run both the ladies and open class?  I realize that common sense dictates that a lighter car is better than a heavier one, and I think I would rather have the ability to place ballast weight where I wanted it vs being forced to have it in the driver's seat, but I also thought that when my son started karting.  Turns out I was wrong with the kart.  For a given total weight, the kart is faster with a heavier driver and less ballast, because the driver can shift his weight enough to improve the kart's handling.  I don't expect that to be true in a full sized car, but the arguement about larger people generally having greater strength seems valid.  I added power steering to my car to make it easier for my small self to drive.  A larger person might not have to.  To me, the point is there isn't really a strong argument on either side of this fence, and people are simply going to vote based on how much they personally weigh.  I really don't like the idea of having to handle 40-60lbs of ballast between runs at a big event if I have a co-driver.  To me, that is the biggest reason to not support this change.

 

Chris, I didn't see any issue about having to balast the seat itself.  

Bottom line, a lighter car is going to be faster.  Physics is physics.  I think hiding behind the lack of data that a lighter driver is faster is a stretch.  I came from motorcycle racing where anybody over 140 lbs was lapped traffic. Not matter your tallent.  I remember riding with a team mate that was 60 bls lighter than I was.  I could stay with him through the turns but he would run away down the straights.  Then we swapped bikes and got the same results.

Yes you can lean effectively in a kart, but not a car.  And I have always thought that changing balast between drivers and runs was asking for trouble.  I would prefer that the rule state that balast may not be removed/added between runs/drivers.  The car would therefore be balasted for the lightest driver.  That's the price you pay for having a co-driver.  

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
http://www.terriehoward.com

What about the added gravitational pull of a heavier driver. 

All bodies of mass act on each other.  The gravitational field of the Earth pulls me to it, and the gravitational field of me pulls the Earth to me.

So logic would conclude that the HEAVIER driver is at an advantage because his mass has a greater effect on the Earth !

 PS---not to mention the obvious advantage if the much larger driver trips and falls in grid and lands upon the smaller driver and thereby squishes him.

PPS---who is Darrin Desimo ?

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Trying to get faster

J P Stein:

I run XP with a light car and a relatively small motor ...no 400 hp monster here, or a four valve motor, FI, ABS, Traction control, unobtainium tires. Our weights are based on engine size already.....plus adding a bonus(?) of 20lbs per liter for having the engine behind the driver (since "equality" was brought up)......can't imagine at what manufacture that is aimed at.

Why then should I have to add weight because a perfectly conditioned 250 pound marathon runner also chooses to run DP? 

I want to run XP because there is more competition but I am NOT going to run 80 lbs of ballast. If this thing goes thru I will go to E Mod and not have to worry about some capricious (for those of you that read) rule change. 

 

Waaa. You have to run 50 lbs of ballast to make weight in XP? I'll have to run 250++ lbs to make weight for XP. It's these flyweight cars like the small bore XP cars that this rule is most crucial. A 30 lb advantage isn't much on a 2800 lb car, but it's significant in a 1300 lb car.

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Aut tace aut loquere meliora silentio.

Steve Hoelscher:

Andy, you have got to be kidding.  When I was 18 years old and racing motor cycles I weighed 210 lbs and looked like a scare crow.  At 6'3" and 150 lbs I would be hospitalized. 

I am well aware of the 'burn vs intake' issue.  I used that very thing to drop about 20 lbs two years ago.  What makes the difference is what makes the weight.  I dropped four inches off my waist and went up in coat size from a 44 long to a 48 long.  I now carry less fat and more muscle. 

I remember seeing Bo Jackson run the 100 meter sprints at an NCAA track meet many years ago.  Bo (Auburn University running back) was 6 feet and 210 lbs.  I doubt there was more than a single pound of excess weight on his whole body.  By the BMI chart you linked, he was WAAAAY overweight.   Yeah, right.....

If you feel you carry Bo Jackson's level of musculature, who am I to argue with that perception? 

Since you don't like the "chart method", there are some really good BMI scales nowadays that are indifferent to body type (which is what you were indirectly referring to above).   Most good gyms have them.  Step on one some time to prove your point to yourself.

--Andy 

J P Stein:

I run XP with a light car and a relatively small motor ...no 400 hp monster here, or a four valve motor, FI, ABS, Traction control, unobtainium tires. Our weights are based on engine size already.....plus adding a bonus(?) of 20lbs per liter for having the engine behind the driver (since "equality" was brought up)......can't imagine at what manufacture that is aimed at.

So are you going to tell me that having the engine behind the driver is a disadvantage too?  The manufacturer that it's aimed at is probably the cars that show up to Nationals.  Toyota, Lotus, and maybe even Porsche.
 

Why then should I have to add weight because a perfectly conditioned 250 pound marathon runner also chooses to run DP? 

I want to run XP because there is more competition but I am NOT going to run 80 lbs of ballast. If this thing goes thru I will go to E Mod and not have to worry about some capricious (for those of you that read) rule change. 

80lbs of ballast sounds like running 20 lbs of ballast and a full fuel tank.

 

 

I think it's smart... and I'm under 200, though not by much.

 

To Su's comment...  if you're a lightweight 5'0" woman with very little strength, and want to run a class like XP...  then that should be a concern when choosing and building a car.  Something like a power steering XP Miata or gasp... Spyder might be better.  You can steer the Spyder around with a pinky finger.... the steering is that light.  The power steering when out at the beginning of my 2nd run on Sunday at Dixie, and the car was fine.  Jim took his 2nd and 3rd runs without it.

 

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Jesse
-2002-2006 E-stock 93 MR2 (sold)
-2007-2008 XP Spyder

boxboy:

I think Sue's point was that weight is not the only physical differentiator between drivers.   If you are saying that through other allowances in the class that you can level the playing field from a strength, reach, size, vision, etc. standpoint then I would agree.  I once made the point in a driver weight discussion with Scotty White that he did not know what it is like to be a 5' 100lb woman.  Using a common weight standard to cover the many physical disparities driver's have is pretty simplistic.

 -Andy M.

 

Says the 5'9"(??) guy who beat