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Must........resist..........comment   :)

I do agree......sometimes folks try to help us and inadvertently harm us......ever had a friend torque some lugs and miss a few or a whole wheel? I have.....this is sorta like that. You pay for one thing and assume that it's done right and as specified. 

To all the people who are bitter and griping and running  with pitchforks and torches........if you drove worth a $hit maybe you'd be under the microscope too. :)    Consider yourself lucky I suppose (I know I'm never fast enough to warrant any suspicion) LOL 

snaponbob:

Tim "Generic" Herron --------------- well said and I am proud of you for standing up.

Howdy,

Andy Hollis:

That's pretty much it.  I don't want a dime from this season because I don't want anyone to think that I stole money from them.  Even if I am personally convinced that there was no performance advantage (I'll pull apart the head apart when I get home from seeing some friends for a couple of weeks).  Perceptions become reality, though, and I know folks are going to think the worst.

And I did not appeal even though I feel better than 50/50 that I could have proved the lack of performance advantage by taking apart all of the spring assemblies, not just the two.  I wanted the class to be able to walk the stage and have their moment.  Tim especially deserved that, as he drove out of his mind the second day.  I knew that even if I prevailed on appeal that the Court of Public Opinion would hang me anyway.  Best to at least let these guys have due recognition.

Speaking (obviously) only for myself, I'd have felt better if you'd appealed.  Actually, I'd have felt the best if someone had protested some other stuff in the motor/trans, and that had been inspected.  Compression ratio (either directly or via piston / combustion chamber), overall gearing in 2nd gear, and crank/rod/piston weight for instance.  At least then the truth of "performance advantage" or not would be known a little more accurately.

As it sits now, all we "know" is that a PC thought you were illegal enough to warrant a DQ vs. some other penalty (for instance, a last place finish or even a "no performance advantage, fix it" deal).  Hopefully someone from the PC will eventually contribute why they collectively felt that penalty was appropriate.

To me, accepting that I can't know "the truth", I need to fall back on the rulings.  I say "rulings" because past history here does change my opinion.  I think being found to have cheated (or "ruled illegal") after your past history warrents dismissal from the SCCA.  You lost your chance to have an excuse or an "I made a mistake" by virtue of past actions.

Interesting perspective.  

This, despite the fact that I did my time, paid my fine, and then overcompensated by volunteering my spare time to serve the sport (over a decade on the SEB and various ACs, Pro Solo Quickstart, Cone Clinics, etc.). Not to mention the personal strife that whole thing caused me for 20 years.   I am sorry that is not enough for you.

You're not the only one that's put a lot of their life into the SCCA and Solo and most of us aren't trying to make up for past misdeeds.  Others have done more or less, as well.  And I'd want all of them held to the same standard as someone that hadn't done anything except show up and shag cones for the day.  That's the primary reason I'm even participating in this thread.  Again, I don't think intentions can be taken into account with this stuff.  When our top national competitors are found to be illegal, it casts a shadow on every autocross around the country.  I'm quite sure I'm not the only person that's heard "All those top guys cheat"... Normally you can answer such crap with "prove it".  In this case, not so much.  And with you in particular its a second offense at the top levels of the sport.  If the punishment isn't severe, I think the wrong message gets sent.

Again, I liken this a lot more to a repeat offender in our justice system.  In most cases, you don't get the same amount of leniency the 2nd time.

Well Mark, I'm not sure what else to do to convince you, unless you want to come down here and tear the motor apart with me. Seriously.

I'd like to, as much as anything to satisfy my own curiosity... :-)  It can't happen for various reasons (similar reasons to why I wasn't at nationals this year).  I expect that I won't be alone in wanting to hear the details of the teardown, particularly if someone who isn't a friend is there doing it with you.

On the former point, here is a message from one of the two guys who did the build.  Ed no longer works for ART and he gave me permission to post it here.  As mentioned in the GRM article on the Miata, Ed does the bottom ends and Karl does the heads.

Andy,
 This news bring me much pain and anguish, I know how important it was for you to be 100% legal on this motor. I was very clear with Karl and told him why it had to be. All the shop manual pages you provided were reviewed and were to be used as a guide for the build. If there is no provision in the manual for returning the valve spring height, or seat pressure after cutting seats and refacing valves, then the shims are wrong. 
 I will gladly speak publicly on your behalf and take any and all blame for the shims in the head. It came out of my shop and I assured you a legal motor. You did not do anything wrong nor did you ask for anything other than a legal motor. 
Issues like this are why I have distanced myself from Karl, yet I feel responsible because it happened on my watch.
 
Sincerely
Mr Ed

I've sent Ed a link to this thread so he may pop up here soon.

--Andy

I hope he does.  Its a pretty stand up move for him to take ownership of the illegal motor.  Perhaps not quite enough to offset the damage of having produced it in the first place, but certainly a stand up deal.  :-)

It won't particularly change how I feel about the DQ and what should result because of it, but it certainly makes me trust you a little more regarding how all this went down.

I appreciate the willingness to discuss this in a reasonable tone.

Mark

Should I book my flights now ?

 Only problem is that I don't know crap about cars.

But Hector said all we need is a manual, and he used to be an auto mechanic, and as a plus he also speaks fluent Spanish.

PS-----if there are some good clubs out there, then maybe I could get Darrin and Mike to tag along

Interesting point my co-driver just brought up.

Andy-

You are a champion and a stand-up guy.  I've enjoyed competing against you and working with you on the SEB.  You and Ann are special to me on all levels.  I hope you seriously consider building a GP Civic and coming to play with the LBCs and us (if Ed decides to make Killer into a GP car. Fingers crossed.) 

How many of the rest of us know absolutely every part in our cars to be legal?  If you've ever had someone else do motor work on your car (and how many of us can do ALL our own work?) there can be some doubt.  I bought an ex Showroom Stock CRX, checked with the local tech inspectors first, measured all the suspension parts I could with Bob Smith on the other end of the phone measuring his in Ohio, all the alignment values were within spec and STILL the car was illegal at a Pro Solo and DSQed.  The previous owner and his car preparers all denied any knowledge of the illegal mod...  right...  But I was responsible for it. 

Ann and Andy are great competitors, great contributors to the sport, wonderful friends, and stand-up people.  We all need to just drop this subject and get back to our own lives.  In my case, I need to work on focus, concentration and driving skills...

Being an STS competitor, and one of the few folks who have been around for the past 20 or so years, I will say this:

Andy did the right thing by handling this situation the way he did. It was an absolute classy and gentlemanly move, and I applaud him for it.

Unless we are directly involved, any commentary we make is at best an educated guess.  

Lehman wrote: "Interesting point my co-driver just brought up.

The car has left impound....hence the name impound.  Anything could be changed.  It could be changed from race to race to race.

The only thing that matters is that how the car was found to be after that race in impound.

Nothing else matters.

So I guess you can cancel my plane reservations

PS-----pretty logical argument huh ?"

Damn that's just sweet, buddy ...

You are an ACE at having your cake and eating it too.

 Why don't you go start a few more joke-ass threads to stir the pot some more.

 Chump.

d.hitchcock
 

Quote from the other thread

 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 

 

Andy Hollis:

atcovan:

Given his track record, not hearsay, but actual proof of forgery and purposeful deceit in the past, had I been a competitor in STS, I'd pony as much $$ necessary to tear-down the entire car.

 

Done deal.

Next year, I will tear down the entire car for free.  No protest required.  You just buy me new gaskets for everything so I can put it back together.  Seriously.  In fact, if you have some time, come down to TX right now and we'll do it this year.  The car will be in the garage for three weeks while we visit some friends out west, but I'll be back in town for a month after that.  Come down and we'll take it all apart.  Everyone is welcome, not just you.  I'm really serious.

--Andy

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 I was on the south side of the original Hollis DSQ at the (1991?) Pro Solo in the early 90s (the car was the same configuration for the SoloII Nationals but the DSQ was not applied to that just the Pro & it would have been my 7th National Championship).

Yes, I was a little angry but Andy did ManUp and give me a sincere, direct and inperson appology when he came back to nationals after paying the large fine that the SCCA had imposed. He is a firece competitor and some of the best rembered times were racing against Andy. 

I still would have liked that Solo II trophy though...

A person must be responsible for thier car and what was done to it, even if a pro built assembly. However it's really hard to keep on top of a builder. You tell them a dozen times and hand them the rule book to work from, but unless the builder has been through SCCA tech and really understands the rules they will use standard building practices for drag or hot rodding.  I have had to throw away heads from improper milling even after handing them all of the manufacture data and rules info for min/max ranges.

Andy, Your offering to do the right thing, kudos. You may want to have Doug Gill come down and dissamble/inspect everything and Blog/post results even if no one takes up you offer. That may be the only way to put this to bed.

Alan McCrispin

your old guys know me as Alan McConnell (name change at marriage)

Since Andy has given me the liberty to speak at will about it and I've spent considerable time calming down now, here is what was found:

As Andy already stated, valve covers were pulled off of the top 5 finishing cars, after valve train was inspected, it was found that valve B of cylinder 1 exhaust side had what looked to be significant damage to the spring seat.  There was material that was mushroomed out from under the valve.  Being how the P/C didn't know all of the specifics of a Honda engine, I was called upon by the P/C to further investigate their findings (for those who don't know already, I'm a 10 year Honda Master Technician) I was not informed as to who's vehicle it was or who was under protest until after I agreed, I inspected what was in question and confirmed the P/C's findings.  We then brought Andy in to question him about it.  After it was all agreed upon to disassemble the valve in question and another adjacent valve to compare ( IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY IN THE P/C) Andy asked if I would volunteer to be the person to disassemble it.  Again, I agreed.  After removal of the valve spring it was found that there were a stack of 2 (AGAIN 2) shims under the valve spring. between the seat and the spring.  The P/C asked me what the significance to this would be.  I stated that if the springs free length or installed height were a bit out of specs (ie. reusing significantly worn valve springs) the a lot of machine shops (who may not be aware of the Honda service manual procedures) would shim the springs to the proper tolerances.  Unfortunately, this being a Honda engine in question, the factory service manual procedures are that any valve spring tolerance not in spec is to be replaced only.  Not shimmed.  It was most probable an oversight from the engine builder (but I can't specifically answer for them)

The findings were found illegal due to the use of non-manufacture recommended engine repair procedures.  The result is a DQ from competition.  Andy, knowing fully that an appeal would still not correct the situation, didn't appeal.  He accepted his DQ and we re-assembled the valvetrain and that was it.

As for titanium retainers (jesus you guys have too much time on you hands to spread rumors that you don't know about)  THERE WERE NO TITANIUM ANYTHING IN THE VALVETRAIN...  EVERYTHING WAS STOCK with the exception of the shims added by the machine shop. 

As for whether the trans was legal or not ( I don't know where you guys get this crap) I've been in that trans this time last year and I can attest to it's legality.    If you don't trust me on that (then I guess you'd need to tear mine apart, as well as Mcormicks, and the Seeligs seeing as how I've been in there's as well.)

Friendship with Andy aside, I was asked by him and the entire P/C to do a job as a NEUTRAL PARTY and I believe anyone on the P/C as well as Andy would agree that I played no favorites with my findings either way.  Andy and everyone in the room knew what the implications might be from all of this but it was decided and agreed upon by both parties to continue with the protest.  Andy was very proactive about seeing what was wrong.  If he had anything to hide, he could have declined to have the disassembly performed.  There was no bond retained to cover the costs of disassembly and Andy went along with it anyway.  From my view point, if a person in question was going to try to hide it, he could have declined the disassembly, accepted the protest and then let the rumors fly about his integrity.  In this case, he accepted the terms of the teardown, very willingly I might add, and we continued on.

I guess my question to everyone would be, why would he agree to all of this if he willingly knew he was cheating.  The problem with you all is that he was very honest with everything and still faces the same fate with you people.  This was his biggest concern back at the shed.  It tore his heart out to know that this crap was going to be hashed out in front of everyone and have his reputation and integrity under question again.  Especially considering that I'm willing to bet there are more than one other engine out there this week that may have had the same type of repair done to there refreshed head as well.

It was a mistake on the engine builders part that Andy took full responsibility for.  Could you do the same?

As for questioning my reputation or integrity on the events...Think what you want.  I've got tons of friends who respect and value my opinion and expertise and most of them I got to see and be with this week.  No skin off my back.

I just don't appreciate the know-it-all, say what I want as long as I hide behind a keyboard attitude that everybody is having right now.  I know everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am too and that's how I feel.

Lehman, I know you and Andy haven't seen eye to eye for a long time, and I've got nothing but love for ya buddy, but I think you're wrong this time. Sorry 

I would like to apologize for going a bit nutty.

Very well put Tim. (If I get divorced, and you break up with your girlfriend, would you mind shooting me over her phone #)

I guess the only thing that drove me nuts was those event write-ups.

(Any opinion if Hoosier would give me those two tires that Andy beat me (Hector), out of.

D. Lehman

If this was truly not a performance-enhancing mod, then Andy should have appealed instead of giving stuff back.  How many other protests in recent years were upheld but no penalty because the violation was not performance enhancing?  GS last year comes to mind, and that was questionable.  This is an over-reaction and Andy will probably walk away from the sport, which is a shame.  My 2 cents. 

 EDIT-the GS issue was two seasons ago I believe.  I don't want to improperly involve any 2007 participants. 

Surferjer:

If this was truly not a performance-enhancing mod, then Andy should have appealed instead of giving stuff back.  How many other protests in recent years were upheld but no penalty because the violation was not performance enhancing?  GS last year comes to mind, and that was questionable.  This is an over-reaction and Andy will probably walk away from the sport, which is a shame.  My 2 cents. 

Clearly Andy was damned either way. Appealing would smack of hiding something, and handing everything smacked of hiding something earlier. Tim Herron has the highest credibility with all that know him. Who else would be SO highly trusted to tear into a direct competitor's car with the awesome pressure of staying completely objective. Nice call on Doug's part, congrats to Tim for shouldering the responsibility, and my hat is off to Andy for taking the path of GREATER resistance. I just can't imagine what the air in the Tech building felt like.

Andy, you and Ann are officially invited to KC for the Spring Evo school so we can all "SUCK LESS".

Doug, you don't get paid enough.

Tim, you are still 'generic', but so well respected by all. Obviously the new stuff (all legal) worked, huh?

Those who do not take Tim's words at face value, and as complete facts, can take a long walk off a short pier. There is NOBODY straighter. (OOPS. Wait ---- more credible.)

Jer, you certainly ask a valid question, but that is a fire storm for another thread. Hopefully, I improve to the point where these will be issues for me.

amccrispin:

You may want to have Doug Gill come down and dissamble/inspect everything and Blog/post results even if no one takes up you offer. That may be the only way to put this to bed.

Doug is too busy for that. If we really want to do this, doing it on a Saturday at HPT where everyone who is interested can come watch would probably be a more practical way to have Doug do it.

amccrispin:

 I was on the south side of the original Hollis DSQ at the (1991?) Pro Solo in the early 90s (the car was the same configuration for the SoloII Nationals but the DSQ was not applied to that just the Pro & it would have been my 7th National Championship).

Good to hear from you, Alan.  Your memory seems to be failing like mine, though.

It was 1990.   And the protest (by Todd Freeman, who just came back to the sport this year and I saw him at Nats, BTW) was in the Solo II.  Pro Solo came after Solo II in those days.  But you are correct that there was no direct linkage on protests in those days.  I am listed as winner in Pro Solo in 1990. Maybe that's the trophy you were looking for?   I guess I'm going to have to write all this down before the details start to escape all of us.

Yes, I was a little angry but Andy did ManUp and give me a sincere, direct and inperson appology when he came back to nationals after paying the large fine that the SCCA had imposed. He is a firece competitor and some of the best rembered times were racing against Andy. 

Direct apologies to you and everyone else in the class that year, plus TC who headed the protest committee. It was the right thing to do.  And then there was the public apology to the whole autox community which was printed in Sports Car, GRM and NA Pylon.

Just as an FYI, the large fine ($10K) was our Pro winnings from 1990.  It was not so much them trying to make a big impression by the amount, but instead getting back any monetary gain.  That serves as a deterrent for others who may think of these things as "business decisions".  When we wrote the big check, we had a nice sit down with Howard to decide what to do with the money.  I think we decided to buy some tech stuff like the scales, and some inspection equipment.  Seemed appropriate.

I still would have liked that Solo II trophy though...

You should have received it in the mail.  It was 1990 and you are listed as the winner in the rulebook.  Since we were on appeal at the banquet, nobody got trophies (this is what I was referring to earlier that sucks).  They should have mailed you yours when the appeal was denied.

--Andy

PS: Send me e-mail through this site, I have something I'd like to chat about off line.